Homer's The Odyssey, translated by Emily Wilson discussion
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Discussion: Introduction and Translator's Note from Emily Wilson's Translation of The Odyssey
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Kris
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Feb 21, 2018 01:51PM
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I finished the intro and translator's notes. But I'll wait to post my thoughts until more of you catch up.
I'd say go ahead & we can add ours.
Will do. My initial thoughts:
I love the way Wilson thinks outside the box, pointing out things I hadn't previously considered. Her discussion of pirates and heroes was interesting. Is Odysseus a pirate or a hero? Is he a pirate in one instance, a hero in another? What I found really fascinating was her discussion of xenia and the role of food--specifically who is eating what, when, and where.
A stranger enters your land. Xenia requires you feed him and show him hospitality. But what if he overstays his welcome? What if he's there to rape and pillage and plunder your resources? Odysseus exacts revenge on the suitors for gobbling up his resources. Helios does the same. Laestrygonians and the Cyclops gobble up Odysseus' men. Circe defends herself and her resources by initially turning them in to pigs. Aren't they all, in one way or another, protecting their resources? What's the difference? Is it a question of degree? Is it ok to rape, kill, pillage, and plunder, but not ok to eat people? Is it ok to stab someone in his one eye, but not ok to turn him into a pig? Or does it all depend on who is doing the gobbling up?
As I re-read the Odyssey this time, I intend to pay closer attention to who eats what and when and where. This introduction has certainly given me much food for thought :)
I love the Translator's Note--the gendered perspective and the why and wherefore of choices made and directions taken in translating the poem. She obviously gave the issue a lot of thought, and it is reflected in her writing.
And now for the really important stuff: knowing as I do one must always judge a book by its cover, doesn't this book have a beautiful, glossy cover? And the weight of it! Hold it with both hands and feel its substantial-ness and heftiness. Then open the book and touch the pages with your fingertips. Doesn't it feel silky and smooth to the touch? Can you imagine the words slowly seeping off the page and on to your fingers? But, wait! It gets even better! Hold the book up to your face and smell its pages. Take a deep, prolonged sniff of this book. Repeat several times. Luxuriate in the smell. Isn't it amazing?
I have spent my entire life sniffing the pages of books. Trust me when I say the smell of this book promises to rank it right up there with the best of them.
(Forgive my indulgence but I couldn't resist. I love the smell and feel of a good book :)
Mod
I agree that Wilson's introduction is rich with insight. I also was drawn to her discussion of xenia and food. It's fascinating to consider the ways that layered periods of time may have influenced the different manifestations of xenia. I was particularly struck by Wilson's consideration of the impact of colonization on the concept and some of its manifestations in The Odyssey.
I also want to explore the role of permanence in The Odyssey. I had never thought about Odysseus's quest for a homecoming as an attempt to turn back time and capture it in amber. I'm always intrigued by past culture's concepts of time, and this is something I want to explore more.
I also loved Wilson's attention to questions of purity and impurity as seen through the lens of gender -- the importance of women and slaves remaining closed-mouthed, the dangers of that barrier being opened, and the decision to hang the maidservants rather than risk having their blood taint Odysseus's palace. This reminded me of one of my favorite articles -- Anne Carson's "Putting Her In Her Place: Woman, Dirt and Desire" in Before Sexuality: The Construction of Erotic Experience in the Ancient Greek World. It's a brilliant article. If anyone is interested in reading it and has problems tracking it down, please send me a message.
Wilson's discussion of The Homeric Question was beautifully written -- great background for readers new to the controversy.
And I agree, Tamara, that the Translator's Note is excellent. I'm very interested in exploring the gendered aspects of the translation throughout the read, and I think she got us off to a good start.
And finally, Tamara, I love your appreciation of the tactile, sensuous aspects of the book. The hardcover is a beautifully produced edition. I also love the cover image -- if there was a poster version I'd frame it for my office! I ended up purchasing the hardcover and an ebook edition, and I'm glad I did.
Kris wrote: "Tamara, thanks so much as always for getting us off to a great start -- insights and puns are an excellent way to dive into this work! I agree that Wilson's introduction is rich with insight. I a..."
Kris, I love your comments, especially the questions of purity and impurity as seen through a gendered lens. Something I want to pay greater attention to as we read the poem. Also to the idea of Odysseus' homecoming as an attempt to turn back time. Maybe that's why he is so restless at the end and, as Tiresias predicted, continues to travel--because we can never go back home. By the time we make it back, it is not the same "home."
It is going to be so interesting to see how different people react to this translation. There is so much potential to learn from each other because what stands out for one person may have eluded someone else.
I tracked down the Carson article you mentioned. It looks fascinating. I hope this is the right one.
https://books.google.com/books?id=_6q...
Wow, thanks so much for that link, Tamara. Very helpful.
Mod
That's the right article, Tamara!
Oh, yeah. Sadly, we can only read one page unless we have access...I presume that is academic access. No matter. Ordered the book it is collected in.
Trish, that is so weird. I'm sorry the link didn't work.I googled the article and the whole article came up as a pdf. But when I bookmarked the link, only the first page came up. I don't have academic access, either. So I guess other than buying the collection, the only way to read the article is to google it and read it as a pdf.
I should have checked the link before sending it off. Sorry.
Mod
Wilson's Intro does the work of pointing to things we will want to notice in the text. Why Odysseus wanted to go "home" to an undoubtedly aged Penelope rather than stay with the godlike Calypso and never die, perhaps was down to his own humanity: always wanting what he does not have.But if the idea of "home" was something everyone acknowledged, why didn't the slave Eumaeus, who was of royal blood himself, work just as hard to get himself out of Ithaca? I understand all ramifications of being a slave, including lack of agency, but he was respected, even admired by an interested Odysseus who listened, rapt, as Eumaeus told his story after his own return from the wars.
What we are meant to take away from all the lying & conniving is that this was admired, acceptable behavior, expected if one was to manage to wend one's way through the cruel world. I wonder when this notion changed, because if learning to lie well was one of the things we should most admire, I guess the world would be a different place.
And the discussion about the role of women in the story seems critical. A woman may have written this? Certainly possible that there was some influence. Even the means of escape of Odysseus & his men from their many captors required cunning & wits rather than strength, e.g., the Cyclops was much bigger, stronger than they were. And the view of men's weaknesses and women's allure was so clear.
I think the introduction and translator's note are fascinating literary productions in their own right. It all starts out deceptively predictably diligent and scholarly, with sober definitions of xenia etc. and then the strands come together at the end of the translator's note in sheer poetry about inviting this strange ancient traveler into ones home and listening to his tale. Quite wonderful!
In addition to the valuable points above, Wilson’s discussion of the characters of Odysseus, Penelope and Telemachus set the stage for a deeper reading. Odysseus is a complex trickster with a range of characteristics and behaviors that are not heroic in contemporarary terms. Wilson points out that hero only means warrior in Homeric Greek. I am finding that I keep needing to go back and reread to understand the structure. I am a few books into it. Great experience.
I started reading the Introduction today. Such smoothly readable writing bodes well for the entire book.Thoughts from the first 5 pages:
Pg 2: "the story of a man whose grand adventure is simply to go back to his own home, where he tries to turn everything back to the way it was before he went away." I laughed out loud. This sounds like my husband every time he comes home from a business trip!
Pg 3: Ocean means the mythical river that encircles the known world. For some reason this gave me chills.
asphodel: a word I have read past many times without knowing what it meant. I looked it up. I felt scholarly and virtuous.
in medias res: same thing. The perils of being an autodidact.
Pg 5: "The Odyssey puts us into a world that is a peculiar mixture of the strange and the familiar" made me feel familiar. (I have been reading a lot of fantasy lately.)
"Odysseus contains multitudes" followed by examples. Is he perhaps the first anti-hero?
Then are listed the three ideals of the poem which got me excited.
Tamara wrote: "Will do. My initial thoughts:
I have only read the first 5 pages of the Introduction so far, but I am going to watch out for the xenia discussion. I don't believe I have ever read such an interesting introduction. Yes, yes, the book is such a beautiful visual and olfactory object!
Historygirl wrote: "In addition to the valuable points above, Wilson’s discussion of the characters of Odysseus, Penelope and Telemachus set the stage for a deeper reading. Odysseus is a complex trickster with a range..." I think the Trickster is a fairly widespread "archetype." Even in the Old Testament the brother who lies and cheats to steal the inheritance is somehow more clever, and thus deserving. The Trickster is supposed to appear in Native American tales, so pretty universal I guess, but still disturbing to someone like me who wants people to play by the rules.
Hi there,Greetings from the other side of the world where summer is about to roll into autumn at the end of this week. I read the intro a few weeks ago, while I was on my summer holiday - couldn't wait until we started the scheduled read, but now I have the chance to read it all again. I left lots of pencil marks on my copy of The Odyssey to pick out various point that were either fascinating or a revelation to me as I read.
What follows is a little bit of a random selection, but at least it is in page order, apart from the first point which is about Xenia.
Tamara mentioned Xenia, the obligations of hospitality to a stranger or a foreigner. I felt that it was a form of etiquette, to feed and make the visitor comfortable before you ask them to tell their story or even give their name. How different that is from modern times when we would never normally allow a stranger into our homes without knowing something about them. It made me wonder if there was a matching code of conduct for the visitor? Don't drink all the wine, don't sleep with the host's daughter and don't overstay your welcome. Could there be a maximum length of stay? It made me think of Paris, and his behaviour when visiting Sparta where he stole Helen. There was some discussion about the contrast between the way that Telemachus is treated and the way that Odysseus treats the suitors at the end of the poem, but I realised that the suitors were not strangers, they were know to the household, many were locals. That must create a different set of rules.
And here are some quotes I found fascinating:
Page 5 "The poem promotes but also questions its own fantasies and ideals, such as the idea that time and change can be undone, and the notion that there is such a thing as home, where people and relationships can stay forever the same."
Page 6 "(no one in the entire Odyssey reads or writes anything)'. Wow, I had never noticed.
Page 11. "Writing must have played a central part in the process of composition, so it is very misleading to describe The Odyssey simply as an "oral" poem, as is far too often done. It is a written text based on an oral tradition, which is not at all the same as being an actual oral composition.
Page 15 Love this thought "The Odyssey as read by Sophocles or Plato in fifth- or fourth-century Athens was presumably not significantly different from our own."
Page 34 "The most important deity in the poem, however, is Athena, the goddess of technical expertise and strategic thinking." Never heard her described like that before.
Page 60 A parallel between the Iliad and Odyssey which I had never spotted before. Achilles chooses to remain and fight at Troy to gain honour among fellow Greeks, instead of returning home to his young son and dying father and a long life in obscurity. Odysseus chooses to be mortal and not stay with Calypso where he would have been alive forever and never grown old. Instead he chooses to return to his family, aging father and son.
Page 61. "Odysseus is an odd figure to represent permanence, since he seems to be constantly changing in appearance, behaviour and social role."
Page 62. "In Ithaca he constructs multiple different autobiographies, usually claiming to come from Crete - the traditional home of liars." I wonder if this was an early form of 'in-joke'' which would have been well known to the audience?
Page 79. "Odysseus is a migrant, but he is also a political and military leader, a strategist, a poet, a loving husband and father, an adulterer, a homeless person, an athlete, a disabled cripple, a soldier with a traumatic past, a pirate, thief and liar, a fugitive, a colonial invader, a home owner, a sailor, a construction worker, a mass murderer and a war hero." That is a wonderful list because it really makes you think about the qualities and faults of the man himself.
Plenty of food for thought.
Wow! These are all fascinating comments. I love the different parts all of you commented on/highlighted/quoted. It makes me want to read the intro and translation again!
Marcus wrote: "Page 62. "In Ithaca he constructs multiple different autobiographies, usually claiming to come from Crete - the traditional home of liars." I wonder if this was an early form of 'in-joke'' which would have been well known to the audience?.."It's been a while since I have done any research on this, but if memory serves me well, Crete was the last surviving gyno-centric culture, celebrating the mother goddess and all she represented. Their orientation was antithetical to the male-worshipping sky gods and all they represented. Their primary deity was the Minoan Snake Goddess. They held out longer than any other culture against the male-worshipping sky gods. That's probably why they were considered "liars."
Just as an FYI: in the Homeric Hymn to Demeter, when Demeter waits at the well at Eleusis, she disguises herself as an old woman. When questioned by the princesses of Eleusis, she fabricates a story about being kidnapped by pirates who snatched her away from her homeland. She claimed to come from Crete.
I'm still reading the intro -- keep going off on my own journeys, sparked by some remark of Wilson's -- but want to pick up on a couple of comments from this thread.Marcus noted this insight of Wilson's: The poem promotes but also questions its own fantasies and ideals which tracks with Judy's offhand remark, "The Odyssey puts us into a world that is a peculiar mixture of the strange and the familiar" made me feel familiar. (I have been reading a lot of fantasy lately.)
I was struck by Wilson's description of how the Homeric poems "seem to have no interest in conveying an accurate, realistic account of the culture in which they were produced." She speculates that "they combine elements of a fictionalized, heroicized past with details of the more recent or contemporary world."
I was thinking, along these lines, that Wilson is highlighting the creative agency of the Homeric poets. The heroic world conveyed in the epic, a world which the gods intervene in human lives and where certain characters stand out on account of their virtue or cleverness or stubbornness or vengefulness (or whatever) was not handed down through the oral transmission of the tales, it was crafted. So reading the Odyssey puts us into the minds of those craftsmen (or women), allowing us to appreciate their flights of fancy as conscious choices.
Lately I have been rereading some of my favorite sci fi and fantasy stories of Ursula Le Guin's, appreciating anew her inventiveness. She was also writing epics, I think.
Well, that's where my mind is taking me this morning.
Good morning everyone. I have only scratched the service of the introduction, and it is certainly increasing the excitement. Reading everyone’s first impressions of the introduction is also making this for a more enjoyable odyssey through the read. I was very excited to read Tamara’s post about the physical aspect of the book. My favorite part from her post:
“And now for the really important stuff: knowing as I do one must always judge a book by its cover, doesn't this book have a beautiful, glossy cover? And the weight of it! Hold it with both hands and feel its substantial-ness and heftiness. Then open the book and touch the pages with your fingertips. Doesn't it feel silky and smooth to the touch? Can you imagine the words slowly seeping off the page and on to your fingers? But, wait! It gets even better! Hold the book up to your face and smell its pages. Take a deep, prolonged sniff of this book. Repeat several times. Luxuriate in the smell. Isn't it amazing?
I have spent my entire life sniffing the pages of books. Trust me when I say the smell of this book promises to rank it right up there with the best of them.
(Forgive my indulgence but I couldn't resist. I love the smell and feel of a good book :)”
I was admiring the cover myself, and the colors make me feel that this is what ancient Greece would have looked like. The gold trim, the light blue sky, and the parchment look of the cover, even though it is glossy. Once I read this, of course I picked my copy up and inhaled it aroma, and I do agree, it is very pleasant. One of the greatest smells that sweet vanilla dancing among used bookshelves.
I look forward to this journey with everyone, and do love all the posts. Cheers.
Mod
Following up on Elena and Historygirl re. the trickster -- here's a good book to explore the archetype throughout time, including Ancient Greece: Lewis Hyde's Trickster Makes This World: Mischief, Myth and Art.
Kris wrote: "Elena wrote: "I think the Trickster is a fairly widespread "archetype." Even in the Old Testament the brother who lies and cheats to steal the inheritance is somehow more clever, and thus deserving..."Thanks Kris, I'm off to the Stanford Library to look for Lewis Hyde....
I notice that Wilson, like Robert Alter in his translation of the Old Testament, insists on being honest about the ancient attitude towards slaves, especially disposable slave girls. No covering it up with "maid servant" language. "The Odyssey is not an abolitionist text." Slavery is apparently just fine as long as it isn't you. It's only a shame if an upper class man gets sold into slavery like the hero's false story to Eumaeus, and Eumaeus's presumably true story of his kidnapping. But no attempt to put it all right. (Some echos of all this show up in the Joseph story, not sure how these echos get transmitted.)
Lisa wrote: "I'm still reading the intro -- keep going off on my own journeys, sparked by some remark of Wilson's -- but want to pick up on a couple of comments from this thread.Marcus noted this insight of W..."
I love how some of us are picking up on some of the same points. I think modern fantasy is our form of epic wherein some of the authors include "flights of fancy as conscious choices."
Kris wrote: "here's a good book to explore the archetype throughout time, including Ancient Greece: Lewis Hyde's Trickster Makes This World: Mischief, Myth and Art."I second that recommendation Kris!
I have a copy of Lewis Hyde's 'Trickster makes this world' which for some reason I never finished reading. I think it was too densely packed with ideas, and I needed more time than I had to digest them. Sometimes there are just too many books to read.
Talking of tricksters, we will encounter one called Proteus in Book 4 when Menelaus tells his nostos stories to Telemachus. This is shape shifting on a huge scale - lion, snake, leopard, boar, water and tree - and I didn't remember this little aside from my last reading of The Odyssey.
Marcus wrote: "I have a copy of Lewis Hyde's 'Trickster makes this world' which for some reason I never finished reading. I think it was too densely packed with ideas, and I needed more time than I had to digest ..."You have got me looking forward to Book 4 Marcus! I never finished Trickster either but one of these days I will. I think I needed to read more other classic books before I could take in all those densely packed ideas.
Another important point that Wilson makes is the deep ambiguity of Odysseus as a hero, heroic but not especially virtuous. I find it interesting that the ancient world was more accepting of moral ambiguity in its heroes and gods than we are. We want our heroes to be totally righteous. Doesn't happen too often....again I'm finding parallels in the Old Testament: Saul, David, Solomon, even Moses, all pretty compromised in some episodes... When I read about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings I was crushed that he was so cruel. It wouldn't have surprised Penelope....
I am amazed but somehow pleased that so many fundamental questions about the Iliad and Odyssey are not resolved. Such as whether one person composed them from the forms of stories in an oral tradition. And whether duplicitous behavior is honored or totally accepted a routine practice.A recent read and audio listen (at 2/3 speed) to the Iliad in the Pope translation makes me consider the similarities and differences, which as Wilson mentions has led to support both for and against the two books being from the same author or authors. Parallels brought out in the wonderful discussions here would seem to support a common mentality, such as that noted behind the mirror image situations over Odysseus' choice to leave Calypso for home and Achilles not to go home. And the starting "in medias res" for both and putting the definitive end to the war offstage in both strikes me as a common approach.
There is not enough of Odysseus in the Iliad for me yet to judge his portrayal as of the same characteristics as in the Odyssey. He does show caution in joining with Agamemnon in arguing to go home when prospects looked grim. And he contributed to trying to persuade Achilles to put aside his grudges to join their battle. He gets a tag translated as "wise" like diplomatic Nestor does. In Pope's introduction he identifies a theme in the Iliad of different characters revealing the multifactorial nature of courage and wisdom. I can how Achilles, Ajax, Hector, and Agamemnon showed different kinds of courage as arising from diverse aspects of their personalities (e.g. frustrated rage, revenge, honor seeking, or mercenary purpose). In the aspect of wisdom, the characters of Odysseus and Nestor:
...are distinct in in this, that the wisdom of one is artificial and various, and of the other natural, open, and regular. But they have, besides, characters of courage; and this quality also takes a different turn in each from the difference of his prudence; for one in the war depends still upon caution, the other upon experience.
I begin to sense, if the same authors were at work, how the multifactorial look at key character traits in the Iliad could progress into an exploration of the coexisting multiplicity of traits within a single character in the Odyssey. That said, I didn't notice much duplicity in the human characters in the Iliad, though much was at work on the part of the gods. Given the role of Odysseus in winning the war through the trickery behind the Trojan Horse rather than from honorable fighting mettle, I can imagine that as provoking a deep look at the polymorphic approach to life ("ever turning" in one of his poly epithets) . I don't think from reading just Wilson's intro so far that Odysseus deceits represent a model for the way the author(s) see as typical or admirable in human nature. After all, he does seem to suffer a lot of consequences and who wouldn't get cynical and less of a straight-shooter like his comrades under the conflicting designs of Poseidon and Athena. Reminds me of kid's story of the sun and the wind competing to control what the child does or the Biblical trying to get Job to crack.
A lot of echoes between the introduction and a book I recently finished, Daniel Mendelshohn's An Odyssey. In that book, Prof. Mendelsohn (Bard College) leads a seminar on Homer's book in a class that includes his dad (who is not a fan of Odysseus's).I think it was but two years ago, too, that I read the Fagles' translation. Two things from that reading, mentioned anew in the INTRO, struck me--Telemachus the Wimp and Odysseus the Murderer.
Re: the former. It's a wonder Sonny Boy doesn't get offed by any of the suitors (a drunken, moody bunch) given his listless resistance. Then again, you might argue that the lack of backbone earlier in the book saves the lad. It is Athena who puts some starch and fury into Telemachus (as she does his dad).
As for Odysseus, Wilson touches on all the paradoxes he captures in human form. Is an accomplished soldier of his ilk a hero or a mere murderer? It's interesting that she emphasizes his tears when he hears the story of his own trick (Trojan Horse) and the subsequent killings within Troy's walls. Regret?
Maybe not, given the bloodbath at the end. It struck me as appalling and over-the-top. You might say "necessary." I might say "there has to be another way."
Then again, it can be argued that Athena demands the suitors' blood.
In short, an ethical mess, which only makes the work that much more intriguing.
I also got a kick out of the theory that some experts had that The Odyssey might be written by a woman (vs. The Iliad, definitely written by a man). The world is split between Odyssey people and Iliad people, but is it as simple as Venus and Mars in the Self-Helpless section of our bookstores? I hope not!
The introduction was great and showed that she put a lot of thought into her translation. My Emily Wilson translation disappeared from my currently reads and I’m unable to change the icon of the Fagles to the Wilson. I also can’t update. I’’ll check back after court.
Just finished the intro- I'm glad that Wilson also included the story about being in the play as a child- as first access to this material. I think that fact alone is going to show that this translation will have been a labor of love.I'm looking forward to reading this with all you!
Aloha, to get the Wilson icon back, pls enter isbn13: 9780393089059 in the search field. Your review will come up under the general Odyssey but while you are reading it, the cover of Wilson's book should display.
Ken wrote: "A lot of echoes between the introduction and a book I recently finished, Daniel Mendelshohn's An Odyssey...."LOL on your Wimp and Murderer monikers. I am going to enjoy your humor as we move forward. I bet your students have fun in your classes. No matter if Wilson shoots down the author being a woman, gender roles seem a major theme her more than in the Iliad. Though she seems to consider a woman author as wishful thinking, the book by committee idea leaves open contributions by a woman. Then again she points out it was kind of sexist for Butler to presume only a woman could tune so well into the feminine perspectives.
Thanks, Trish. Still can’t update. The update field is not there. Updating within the Kindle worked. The Kindle eBook has the cover of a totally unrelated non-fiction eBook,,
. Cute cover, though.
Hopefully they can correct the inability to update within GR. As far as the book cover error, that would be Amazon.
“I wanted to bring out the particular ways in which Homer can be funny”—Wilson translator’s note. I appreciate Wilson’s approach to the reader allowing her to find things funny, horrific, fantastical, but not awed by the dead solemn hand of the classics. She also writes that Odysseus “contains multitudes,”which makes me think of Whitman, definitely one of my favorite epic poets.
I loved the Translator's Note. I thought she expressed exactly what she wanted from the treatment of her translation, and she is genuine in how she wanted to keep it authentic, but readable. My favorite part is the last sentence of the note on page 91:" There is a stranger outside your house. He is old, ragged, and dirty. He is tired. He has been wandering, homeless, for a long time, perhaps many years. Invite him inside. You do not know his name. He may be a thief. He may be a murderer. He may be a god. He may remind you of your husband, your father, or yourself. Do not ask questions. Wait. Let him sit on a comfortable chair and warm himself beside your fire. Bring him some food, the best you have, and a cup of wine. Let him eat and drink until he is satisfied. Be patient. When he is finished, he will tell his story. Listen carefully. It may not be as you expect."
I believe this is the essence into what Wilson wanted from her translation.
George, I also love this quote!!
Elena wrote: "George, I also love this quote!!"Reading it made me think Homer will be coming to my house to eat, drink, and to tell me a story; and I am excited for that.
Mod
BTW, people interested in Wilson's approach to translation may want to look back in time through her tweets. She has a few different threads where she quotes herself and some other translators and explains her reaction and thoughts about translation choices. She also mentions that she does plan to translate The Iliad -- she estimates it will take about 6 years or so.
Kris wrote: "She also mentions that she does plan to translate The Iliad -- she estimates it will take about 6 years or so..."That's so exciting! It's wonderful to have women translating Homer. It will be interesting to compare her translation with that of Caroline Alexander's translation.
One or two people have mentioned reading the wonderful book by Daniel Mendelsohn 'An Odyssey: A Father, a Son and an Epic'.I thought this was a wonderful book, both for the relationship it portrayed, but also the great things it taught me about the Greek language and The Odyssey. Having never actually studied Greek, I am at a disadvantage when it comes to the subtleties of translation.
A couple of things that I picked up from the book were that in Greek there is a form that is neither singular or plural, but dual. It is used for things that come in pairs such as oxen, eyes or hands.
And a more complex note that I made - Greek verbs exist in a myriad of moods and tenses and forms and voices. Every verb has hundred of forms, to describe precisely the action to which the verb refers, who is doing it, how is it being done, in what circumstances and with what aims. That is a richness which the English language does not afford us, and makes me even more appreciative of the fine work that Emily Wilson has done to bring us this new translation.
Mendelsohn had some other passages which were a detailed look at certain words or passages to pull out the depth of their meaning. I wish I had marked these so I could find them again as I think they would be an interesting addition to our discussion.
I will try and find them again.
Marcus wrote: "One or two people have mentioned reading the wonderful book by Daniel Mendelsohn 'An Odyssey: A Father, a Son and an Epic'.I thought this was a wonderful book, both for the relationship it portra..."
I am fascinated by what you say about Greek verbs. It almost sounds like they put every other part of speech into their verbs. What a concept! How alive that must make the language.
And me, I feel like we have enough moods, tenses, and forms in English. I'm still working on the past perfect (or is it imperfect) and the subjunctive mood, which I think I woke up in this morning, but am not sure....
Really fascinating note on the forms of Greek verbs, Marcus. And Ken, glad to see you clinging to the back of the ship as it leaves harbor.
And spare me from pluperfect, Ken. They put prepositions in with their nouns, so each has five possible cases (I had a couple of years of torture with Ancient Greek in high school, taking some fun out of the Iliad as a story). That is a lot of cases, but I understand the Russian has a lot of noun cases too. Then there are masculine/feminine/neuter and singular/plural forms. We English speakers always struggle with gendered elements in Romance languages. I guess looking at the world through a gender lens started early Quite a challenge for ridding the world of sexist thinking.
My understanding is that ancient Greek verb forms expressed "aspect" so whether an action is ongoing or a single act. Aspect seems to have been imbedded in early European languages (what my teachers called Indo-European.) Russian verbs of motion still have that feature of aspect and it makes for incredible poetry. It also makes translation into a simplified commercial language like modern English incredibly difficult.
Homer's The Odyssey, translated by Emily Wilson
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Before Sexuality: The Construction of Erotic Experience in the Ancient Greek World (other topics)
