Do Not Say We Have Nothing - Whole Book - spoilers allowed (Feb 2018)

[Caroline]

This thread is for discussing Part Zero, Coda, and the entirety of this month's moderator pick, Do Not Say We Have Nothing by Madeleine Thien. Spoilers very much allowed!

[Sue]

An amazing book - I loved the sweep of history, much of it unknown to me other than as vague shadows.

I clearly recall the Tiananmen Square protests on television. I was in my very early 20's at the time, just a little older than Ai-Ming, and I can't imagine events like this occurring in my own life. I imagine Ai-Ming's father gunned down in the street by the military and what a deforming impact that would have had on my own life.

I was fascinated by the depiction of the rise of the communist party in China. I had heard of The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution, but had never really put them in historical context before.

The senseless and pointless loss of life is appalling to me. And among those who survived, their lives were cruelly diminished. I am thankful to live in a different time and place.

Beyond my personal reactions to the events portrayed, I found the story itself to be gracefully told and extremely rich. The recurring theme for me was repetition with variations.

- Bach's Goldberg variations were described as repeating a musical theme, with variation on each repetition. (I have to admit I was not especially familiar with the music, so I found a recording on YouTube.) The story highlights a number of composers, but returns again and again to Bach, including a later recording of the same composition by the same artist, which introduces yet more variation to the listener.

- The copying and varying of the Book of Records. The use of the handwritten Book of Records as a beacon to Wen and Swirl was a wonderful part of the story. Giving them a path to find their way. And later in time (earlier in the book) one of those chapters is used to introduce Marie to her own family's past.

- There are many points in the book where characters feel they have returned to an earlier point in their own lives - especially Sparrow. The events of Tiananmen Square remind him of the Cultural Revolution; Ai-Ming reminds him of Zhuli; even taking up composing after 20 years is a return to his earlier obsession, but with variation again as his last composition is intended for just piano and violin. And the playing of Sparrow's last composition years after his death is an echo/repetition.

Overall I found this to be a glimpse into a culture that existed parallel but utterly separate from our own culture in the West. It makes me value our freedom here, particularly freedom of expression. I can't imagine the darkness of soul and spirit if even the music we love and the unexpressed thoughts in our heads could result in publicly sanctioned imprisonment and death.

I look forward to reading what others think of this book!

[Marc]

I certainly enjoyed this book and it gave me a lot to think about in terms of freedom, identity, language, love... But I also had a very odd relationship to the story. I was so taken with Maria and her character that I kept wanting the story to come back to her more often and stay in the present, which was quite obviously not what this book was about directly. There was just something about Maria's voice and the way she experienced the world that enamored me and somehow made the backstory less engaging (kind of ridiculous on my part given that the whole book is basically the backstory of Maria's father and how Ai-Ming came into her life, which just happens to be set against the backdrop of a major cultural shift and period of oppression in Chinese history).

[Julie]

I actually feel the same Marc (not done with the book yet) and keep wanting to go back to the present.
I suspect part of that has to do with the fact that I have no interest in classical music or violin or piano which is such a big part of the story of some other characters.

[Marc]

Julie, I did wonder if my fixation was solely because I found Maria and the present more interesting or, whether in part, I found the backstory a bit more of a vehicle for giving voice to those who died or were oppressed in the past. Are you super into math the way Maria is? If the answer is yes, than I'll buy your feelings based on a lack of interest in classical music/violin/piano. But if your answer is no, I'm thinking maybe Maria is just a more "real" character and the past has a more utilitarian, politically-motivated feel to it.

I should say, it's not that I didn't like the past parts, it's just that the present had a more vibrant and rounded feel to it. I was pretty touched by some of the moments between Kai and Sparrow. My heart splintered in several places for Zhuli and the kind of hopelessness of such conditions was nearly palpable. You often wonder why there wasn't more resistance, but it seems much easier than one would think to turn a society essentially against itself. I might be willing to die for values and principles, but I'm not sure I'm willing to cause the death of my family and loved ones for them...

[Hugh]

For me the most interesting part was the section set during the Cultural Revolution. I am not sure I saw Maria as much more than a cipher. But it is well over a year since I read the book so I have probably forgotten a lot. The musical content also appealed to me.

[Marc]

Because her role is pretty limited, I think it's rather fair to consider Maria a cipher, Hugh. It's just that Thien made her too engaging for me. A fair amount of the musical references were familiar to me, but between attempts during this book and The Noise of Time, I still can't seem to get into Shostakovich.

[LindaJ^]

Marc, with respect to Shostakovich, is your failure to "get into him" about his music or Shostakovich himself?

[Hugh]

I would be interested to know whether more recent editions have corrected the error in which she says that Bach and Busoni were born 300 years apart. If true, this would mean Busoni was born in 1985 - the true figure is 181.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrucc...

[Caroline]

Thanks for sharing, everyone.

For those interested in the music, I've found a Spotify playlist here with much of the music from the book (it is a pretty long playlist!

Here's another site featuring some of the music, alongside sections of the book.

I was initially drawn to Marie as well, perhaps because she is the only character that speaks in the first person and because there doesn't seem to be a single other main character of the book - instead we get the story of generations weaved together. However, as I read more of the book, I became more and more drawn to the other sections of the book. Another thing I appreciated the more I read the book is how "real" each period of time (and corresponding characters) felt. Marie, speaking in the present tense and closest in time to us, felt the most real to me - in fact, I almost wondered whether there were autobiographical elements included in the book. In contrast, Wen the Dreamer and Swirl's almost takes on a mythical quality - they do not seem to fit in with the world around them and ultimately disappear - their stories blend in with Da-wei's and May Fourth's of the Book of Records as they cross the desert time and time again.

Some of my favorite parts were when Ai-ming begins participating in demonstrations with Yiwen - it made me feel as though the whole rest of the book had been the lead up to Marie and Ai-ming meeting. I skimmed part of the beginning of the book once I'd finished and the book felt all the more powerful knowing what happens to the rest of the characters - what was the relationship between Sparrow and Jiang-Kai? What had happened to Ai-ming that brought her to Canada? What does the concept of "illegal music" mean?

I also absolutely loved the end with Marie copying out chapter 17 of the Book of Records and distributing it in multiple places as a means of tracking down Ai-ming in the same way Big Mother Knife and Swirl had tried to track down Wen the Dreamer.

[Dan]

Caroline, thank you for assembling the playlist: hours of listening enjoyment await me.

[Julie]

Good point about Marie speaking in first person. I seem to prefer that point of view. It makes me feel more of a connection to that character.

[Irene]

I think my opinion is going to be unpopular, but, still, I am not very fond of the book. I actually found myself enjoying the story, but the way of writing did not seem effortless, but rather laboured. There is the recurrent theme of language, as both written and a spoken word, one that takes many shapes, as in Chinese-English, documents-stories that travel from mouth to mouth, music as a language, etc., which I found tiring. For me, it did not feel as a unifying thread that connected the whole, past and present, but as a constant effort from the part of the author to sprinkle her text with linguistic references. So, I could see there is a difference in style for past narratives and the language that Marie uses in the present. I guess it would have worked better for me if I felt it flowing rather than cropping up as a pattern -or a reminder- every now and then. Honestly, those white rabbit sweets that were meant to act as coincidental appearances, every time the path of Big Mother Knife and that woman on the bus crossed, made me mad. So, yes, I take literature way too seriously.

[Julie]

Irene wrote: "I actually found myself enjoying the story, but the way of writing did not seem effortless, but rather laboured...."

This pretty much sums it up for me. I have been reading the book forever and I am still not even done. It is slow reading. I like the story and the portrayal of how the political environment affects the characters, but it seems like it could....flow better? I don't know.

[Julie]

I also think the book is trying to make a statement about the power of music and that it didn't really succeed. I don't feel like I "get" it or really *feel* what the author is trying to say. Maybe it is just me and my lack of knowledge about the music that is discussed and the fact I can't play any instruments though.

[Marc]

Julie, I also felt like I was reading the book forever--it was like I enjoyed the first 100 pages and the last 100 pages. Will be curious to hear what you think once done (besides, perhaps, just simple relief!).

Irene, your point about flow definitely was felt by others here on this thread. Maybe too much structure/stiffness made the coincidences seem planned... ?

[Caroline]

It took me a while to read this book as well - though I loved it. I found the text beautiful but fairly dense so had to enjoy it in smaller sections at a time - I was sad to finish it though.

By the end, the structure and coincidences did feel planned but I really appreciated that - to me the structure felt well thought out and each placement of time-line and narrative was intentional.

[Marc]

I ended up bumping this one up from 3 stars to 4 because it stirred so many thoughts and impressions inside me, despite some struggles with the flow. I like that word, "intentional", to describe how considered the structure and placement were, Caroline.

I kept wondering about the title. At first, ignorantly kind of mocking it in my head and asking, why so negative?!! Couldn't it be: Say We Have Something? Then I realized it was taken from The Internationale (as mentioned in the book). Then I had to look this up and realize it's part of the Chinese Communist Party's official anthem (it's a classical socialist anthem they adopted).

Translation of Chinese lyrics:

Arise, slaves afflicted by hunger and cold,
Arise, suffering people all over the world!
The blood which fills my chest has boiled over,
We must struggle for truth!
The old world shall be destroyed
Arise, slaves, arise!
Do not say that we have nothing,
We shall be the masters of the world!

This is the final struggle,
Unite together towards tomorrow,
The Internationale
Shall certainly be realised.

There has never been any saviour of the world,
Nor deities, nor emperors on which to depend.
To create Humankind's happiness
We must entirely depend on ourselves!
We shall retake the fruits of our labour,
And let the mind burst free from its prison cell.
Let the flames in the furnace burn red-hot,
For only when the iron is hot will we succeed in forging it!

This is the final struggle,
Unite together towards tomorrow,
The Internationale
Shall definitely be realised.

Who is it that created the world of humankind?
It is us, the masses.
Everything is for workers,
How can parasites be accommodated!
The most detestable are those poisonous snakes and savage beasts
Eating up our flesh and blood.
Exterminate them all at once,
The red sun will shine all over the globe!

This is the final struggle,
Unite together towards tomorrow,
The Internationale
Shall definitely be realised.

[Tamara]

Marc wrote: "I kept wondering about the title. At first, ignorantly kind of mocking it in my head and asking, why so negative?!! Couldn't it be: Say We Have Something? Then I realized it was taken from The Internationale (as mentioned in the book). Then I had to look this up and realize it's part of the Chinese Communist Party's official anthem (it's a classical socialist anthem they adopted)..."

Thank you for that, Marc. I would never have made the connection. But it makes a lot of sense in terms of the novel.

[Marc]

Too interesting not to share, Tamara!

Music becomes a kind of double-edged sword in this book--it's used as both a source of freedom/creativity for the individual, but also as a means of control and indoctrination by the state. Those power-to-the-people lyrics certainly seem tragic in light of the reality the characters faced...

What's even more frightening is that such conditions still exist (in part, in China; and even more so, in places like North Korea, I believe).