Victorians! discussion
This topic is about
Wives and Daughters
Archived Group Reads 2018
>
W&D: Week 3 - Chapers XIV - XX
I am really disliking Mrs Gibson. She's selfish and needs her own way in everything. I can't find redeeming qualities for her.
Camille wrote: "I am really disliking Mrs Gibson. She's selfish and needs her own way in everything. I can't find redeeming qualities for her."The more we get to know Mrs. Gibson, the more we wonder: but why on earth did that good Dr. Gibson marry her? :)
Mod
Isn't this an age-old question? :)
Why do good men marry bad women and why do good women marry bad men?
I'm finding Molly a much more interesting character as the novel moves on. She sees a lot more of people's motives than we realize and she's not as acquiescent as before. Some of her comments to her new mother show her to be more aware of what's going on. She may not be able to do as she pleases yet, but she does chafe at having to do as her new mother wants and as people think a young lady her age ought to do.
I think when it comes to Mrs Gibson, she is a very intelligent woman who knows how to get what she wants or needs . I think it was on the previous thread from last week that somebody mentioned she needed a situation in life, as was expected at the time. She was working as a teacher but what happens when she becomes too ill to work, for example?This doesn't excuse the way she behaves towards her daughter. She seems to be jealous of her daughter's beauty or her being in the spotlight. As a mother myself, I really don't understand this.
Kerstin wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "The more we get to know Mrs. Gibson, the more we wonder: but why on earth did that good Dr. Gibson marry her? :) "Isn't this an age-old question? :)
Why do good men marry bad wo..."
Yes, you're right, Kerstin: we can very often see good men marrying bad women and vice-versa... I just wonder... I married a nice husband... could this mean...?
Catherine wrote: "I'm finding Molly a much more interesting character as the novel moves on. She sees a lot more of people's motives than we realize and she's not as acquiescent as before. Some of her comments to he..."Yes, Catherine. In the very first chapters, Molly appeared to me as a too typical character, and because of this, not a credible character. It seemd to me that Gaskell wanted Molly and each other Character to represent a social class. Now that it's done, Gaskell develops more particulary each character, and they start to become more real, more lively. Molly is starting to open her eyes on the reality of life, if not yet, on who she is and what she really wants... and I wish she wants Roger, beacause I don't see any other interesting man around! :)
Camille wrote: "I think when it comes to Mrs Gibson, she is a very intelligent woman who knows how to get what she wants or needs . I think it was on the previous thread from last week that somebody mentioned she ..."I agree with you, Camille, especially as a mother myself, as you say... except for one point: I don't think Mrs Gibson is "very" intelligent. If she were "very" intelligent, she would have known how far she could go to not openly displease her husband and her daughter-in-law. Or maybe, she is so pretentious and imbued with her person, that she thinks she can impose herself too easily... or maybe she thinks she's more intelligent that Mr Gibson and that he'll never realize what kind of person his wife is really.
Gabrielle wrote: "Camille wrote: "I think when it comes to Mrs Gibson, she is a very intelligent woman who knows how to get what she wants or needs . I think it was on the previous thread from last week that somebod..."I don't think Mrs. Gibson is a particularly intelligent woman. I do think she's crafty and smart enough to be fairly successful at passive/aggressive manipulation, but even then, she often misses the social cues that tell her she's gone too far. She is not a woman I like at all.
Catherine wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Camille wrote: "I think when it comes to Mrs Gibson, she is a very intelligent woman who knows how to get what she wants or needs . I think it was on the previous thread from last..."Absolutely, Catherine. I understand she married Gibson to "save" herself, this shows she's not weak, and she fights for herself, fair enough. But one married, to a nice man, with a nice daughter-in-law, she should behave more... friendly, let's hope she'll realize the chance she get, finally, and she'll become softer.
Mrs Gibson nee Kirkpatrick....grrrr. I still don't like this character and I don't think that is going to change further down the book.
I can't even comprehend how a woman like her, surrounded by women and girls can be so callous to her own daughter! I guess some women as just not cut out to being mums.
I wish that the Hamley's could have somehow "adopted" Molly as their own. To have someone like Mrs Hamley would have been the ideal for Molly. I think Molly knows that Mrs Hamley is as much a second-mother to her than the new Mrs Gibson.
For Cynthia's sake, I'm glad she has Molly now and Mr Gibson as well. Imagine having to be so removed from the love on one's mother. Poor child. I get that Mrs G had to work to provide for her daughter when she was widowed, but ... honestly, I wonder what her own childhood was at this point.
I guess this constant want of money and the struggle to have even the basic necessities would have hardened her and made her the way she is. Still, I just can't seem to excuse her for it. Did her first husband's death only make her more maternally insensitive? Can this simply be jealousy for the male attention her daughter receives just by merely breathing? There obviously is some (uncomfortable) history there with Mr Preston.
I don't think she is overly manipulative or very intelligent either. I see her as someone superfluously fighting to fit into a class; constantly aspiring towards something she is not and possibly can never be.
I thought one of the saddest parts of this novel so far is when Betty leaves Molly. Betty has been the one person who has been a constant in Molly's life. She is probably the person who Molly went to when she needed anything, (emotional support also). Molly is basically abandoned by her father. Now she is abandoned by Betty. But then Mrs Gibson wants to redecorate Molly's room. All of Molly's Mom's furniture which belonged to her before she married Mr. Gibson is going to be thrown into the lumber room. At this moment Mrs Gibson, Clare/Hyacinth, can not redeem herself with me. Who does that to someone? Yes, I understand Mrs. Gibson is making the house her house but still!
I am just on chapter 19 so I won't read the above yet. My how Mrs Hamey's death seems drawn out and depressing! It seems so very Victorian! I see how Mrs. Gaskell used it as a plot device. It caused Molly to be at the Hamley's when Osbourne came home and find out his secret. Molly's life has been so unbearable up until now. I wonder if her "sister" will make it bearable or worse.
I hope Molly marries Roger. I can see that he would be kind and try his best to make her happy. Her best bet would probably be to get as far away from her stepmother as possible.
Joanne wrote: "I am just on chapter 19 so I won't read the above yet. My how Mrs Hamey's death seems drawn out and depressing! It seems so very Victorian! I see how Mrs. Gaskell used it as a plot device. It cause..."I'm team Roger too!
Camille wrote: "Joanne wrote: "I am just on chapter 19 so I won't read the above yet. My how Mrs Hamey's death seems drawn out and depressing! It seems so very Victorian! I see how Mrs. Gaskell used it as a plot d..."I second team Roger! :)
Laurene wrote: "I thought one of the saddest parts of this novel so far is when Betty leaves Molly. Betty has been the one person who has been a constant in Molly's life. She is probably the person who Molly went ...""Who does that to someone?" you asked, Laurene.
Perhaps Mrs. Gibson is reproducing what has been done to her since her birth: no doubt no one has ever considered her own person?
However, everyone can, everyone has the duty, dare I say, to change; to ask oneself questions: was the model of education which was given to me the right one? Am I on the right way? But these questions about oneself are the most difficult to ask, and often we don't ask them because we don't want to hear the answers.
And can Mrs Gibson do this? I don't think so. Psychology had not appeared yet, in the beginning of the 19th century.
Saying that, I almost get to like Mrs Gibson! :)
I am really curious to know what it is with Mr. Preston and Cynthia and her mother. I can not guess! Can you?
Mod
I've been wondering about this too!
First and foremost -- I am definitely team Roger but I don't think Roger is "smitten" with Molly. But feelings can always change.
Gabrielle wrote: "Laurene wrote: "I thought one of the saddest parts of this novel so far is when Betty leaves Molly. Betty has been the one person who has been a constant in Molly's life. She is probably the person..."Gabrielle -- I definitely agree with you. I am sure there is some background of Mrs. Gibson which causes her to act the way she does with Molly and now her own daughter, Cynthia. And the cycle of neglect begets the cycle of neglect. Maybe Mrs. Gibson's background will be explored in the coming chapters of the book which could redeem her but until then . . .
Charlotte wrote: "I am really curious to know what it is with Mr. Preston and Cynthia and her mother. I can not guess! Can you?"My curiosity has also been peaked!
Mod
If Molly and Roger are to be, then my hunch is this will be a slow, tender maturing of a relationship from the current friendship - which is still a little lop-sided - into something deeper. How many twists and turns? We'll see what Gaskell has in store :)
Mod
1) Maria Edgeworth's Castle Rackrent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_E...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_...
2) Sarah Trimmer's Fabulous Histories. Designed for the Instruction of Children, Respecting Their Treatment of Animals -- this book contains the story of two robins, Pecksy and Flapsy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_T...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabulou...
How do you see these fitting into Gaskell's narrative and/or social commentary?
So I finally caught up! I can discuss some topics you have been pondering. First, I think Mrs. Gibson's past was that she was once poor. She may have found that once she did not want for anything, nothing seemed good enough. How can I explain this? When one is poor and they think money is and possessions are all that will make them happy, they learn that they were mistaken. Yet they try to impose this view on others. I can't wait to find out about Osbourne's wife. I hope she's not just some girl he got pregnant. That would be boring.
I want to find out about Preston too. He seems like a,slimy character the way he flirts with Molly. I bet he's an underhanded villian and has done something horrible to Cynthia. "Ah! Let me marry your daughter or I will foreclose your mortgage!"
Laurene wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "I am really curious to know what it is with Mr. Preston and Cynthia and her mother. I can not guess! Can you?"My curiosity has also been peaked!"
Kerstin wrote: "Charlotte wrote: "I am really curious to know what it is with Mr. Preston and Cynthia and her mother. I can not guess! Can you?"
I've been wondering about this too!"
Charlotte wrote: "I am really curious to know what it is with Mr. Preston and Cynthia and her mother. I can not guess! Can you?"
I have so many ideas about what may have happened between Mrs. Kirckpatrick-Gibson, Cynthia and Mr. Preston, that I could give several different versions of their common past. But if I'm right, I might be accused of "spoilers"! So I close my imagination and keep my ideas to myself! :)
Laurene wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "Laurene wrote: "I thought one of the saddest parts of this novel so far is when Betty leaves Molly. Betty has been the one person who has been a constant in Molly's life. She is p...""Maybe Mrs. Gibson's background will be explored in the coming chapters of the book which could redeem her."
Who knows? Not me! :) This said, I'm pretty sure that Mrs. Gibson will remain as she is. If she's not able, after a few months of marriage to see and appreciate the qualities of her husband, although sh'es already a certain age, I don't think she will change.
But I recently realized, even if it may sounds as simple as a Walt Disney's world, that most of people are unable to change. And that some others are simply not kind!
Strangely, it could make me pessimistic, but not at all! The more I tell myself that neither all nor everyone is nice, the more I want to see only the nice side of life!
Kerstin wrote: "Laurene wrote: "First and foremost -- I am definitely team Roger but I don't think Roger is "smitten" with Molly. But feelings can always change."If Molly and Roger are to be, then my hunch is th..."
"a slow, tender maturing of a relationship from the current friendship" is the most lasting relation.
Joanne wrote: "So I finally caught up! I can discuss some topics you have been pondering. First, I think Mrs. Gibson's past was that she was once poor. She may have found that once she did not want for anything, ..."Ah, ah! :D I like your last sentence, Joanne!
Cynthia seems to enthrall everyone she meets. I can see that Molly is frustrated that Roger begins to shower attention on Cynthia. I'm amazed that Molly is not more upset. Maybe she doesn't see Roger as a suitor but just a friend. I wonder why Osbourne is such a regular visitor of the Gibsons. I can't believe its because Molly's presence reminds him of his mother. I think it is shameful that he has also allowed himself to be drawn in by Cynthia's charms. He and his brother both are making fools of themselves over her.
Mod
I do agree, Osborne is on thin ice here.
Here we are in a fairly isolated rural setting and within the space of a few months there is not only a new doctor's wife, but also her daughter. This is big news, and certainly breaks up the monotony. Getting to know these two newcomers is probably the most exciting thing that's happened in a while. Then there is Mrs. Gibson herself, not knowing Osborne's true marital status, who actively encourages Osborne to come and visit, as she sees him as a preferred candidate for her daughter to marry. And then there's Cynthia who has perfected to charm everyone around her. This probably stems from being neglected by her own mother and the natural attention that she'd been denied she seeks elsewhere. At this point I am not totally convinced we've met the real Cynthia, but the one who learned to play the part in whatever situation she's in.
I hope that Cynthia and Molly continue to get along. They could be co-conspirators of something hilarious.
Cynthia is extremely bright when it comes to understanding her mother and making comments to undermine her snobbishness and unkindness. However, she is remarkably indifferent to Molly's feelings about Roger, which is disconcerting. I, too, dislike Mrs Gibson for her selfishness, obtuseness and unpleasantness. However, let us think about what she has achieved for Mr Gibson. He is now able to go to work and also socialise without worrying about Molly - the reason that he countenanced marrying Hyacinth/Clare in the first place. Molly does have an unpleasant 'mamma' not only replacing her own mother, but her mother's furniture. A double attack on her sensitivities about her biological mother. A cruel fate indeed. Mr Gibson also has his reservations about his wife, but his main aim has been accomplished. Her main aim has also been won - comfort without having to work any longer. In this case, servants do the work that would usually be undertaken by a person at home with children, so we can quite legitimately refer to Mrs Gibson not working.
I keep forgetting how far we are allowed to read and am presently wallowing a bit in Chapter XXIV. I am enjoying some fast paced thrillers in between!
Mrs. Gibson is obviously wanting a match between Cynthia and Osborne. I wonder how this will complicate things for the good relationship between Molly and Cynthia. Molly did promise not to say a word about Osborne's secret wife. I wonder what inappropriate thing Mr. Preston did that cut off his relationship with Mrs. Gibson and Cynthia. Evidently there is some history between the 3 that is referred to when Mr. Preston visits. On another note, Molly grew a backbone quickly when Lady Harriet was name calling. How primary school of Lady Harriet. I was surprised about how out spoken Molly was with Lady Harriet. I was thinking "way to go Molly, tell it like it is" I was also surprised by the good relationship between Molly and Cynthia, I was expecting the wicked step-sister act.
LOL, we all dislike Mrs Gibson.
message 35:
by
Lady Clementina, Moderator
(last edited Jan 21, 2018 06:45AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Mrs G is behaving pretty much as I expected her to - though perhaps pushing things a little bit too far with her husband. I am glad Mr Gibson is paying for his decision- which was probably the stupidest thing he did- but I do feel for poor Molly. At Cynthia so far is proving to be a slightly more welcome addition to the household from Molly's pov.
Re the discussion about her intelligence- she doesn't come across as very intelligent but entirely self centred and quite well able to manipulate others into getting what she wants- bar Cynthia, probably.
Molly is finding her voice some more, certainly but we did see that she had one even in the last instalment when she refused to visit with Mrs Kickpatrick (as she was then) right to Lady Cumnor's face- she didn't shy away from speaking up.
Like others in the group, I'm excited to see what secret will emerge as far as Mr Preston is concerned and if we meet Osborne's wife soon
Loved reading everyone's comments -- wished there was a like button!
Laurene wrote: "Loved reading everyone's comments -- wished there was a like button!"Like! :)
Seconding lots of the opinions already expressed. First, though, this seems to have been a section of mystery- Osborne’s wife (totally unexpected), the relationship between Cynthia, her mother and Mr. Preston, and Cynthia’s enigmatic comment about not being able to be a good person, except in short bursts. Mrs. Gibson, despite her unfortunate situation of being a widow and having to support herself, is a shallow and self-centered woman, incapable of any empathy. She sees everything through a lens of “me” whether it’s to do with Cynthia, Molly or Mr. Gibson. I can’t conceive of her having an epiphany of conscience.
I’m still feeling sorry for Mr. Gibson. He has achieved his goal of providing a “Mother” for Molly, but he doesn’t want to face that fact that he has married a woman like Mrs. Gibson. His solution is to not think about it, mainly keep quiet so as not to provoke arguments, and devote himself to his patients. Sadly, it seems that if Mr. Cowe had left the Gibson house earlier, Mr. Gibson would not have felt compelled to look for a wife.
I agree that Molly is becoming a more complex and interesting character. She is very observant of people’s behavior- the Squire, the interactions between Cynthia, Mrs. Gibson and Mr. Preston to name a few. She also continues to find her voice- literally- which brings her admiration from Harriet and her father’s support in defiance of Mrs. Gibson.
I’m team Roger as well. Although, I am not convinced of a happy outcome for Molly and Roger and even if there is, I am sure there will be many bumps in the road.
I am finding it hard to come to grips with this renowned novel. North and South is such an obviously political novel, without being polemical, and this one (to me) seems to meander with a little bit of class comment, some gender politics, some power discrepancies that result in the less powerful suffering - in a way. It seems to not really know wherever it is going - apart from interesting us in who will win Roger? what is really the story of Osborne's wife and what will happen to that marriage, his relationship with his father and, possibly eventually , his inheritance? what is Cynthia and Mrs Gibson's relationship with Mr Preston? These are interesting enough problems, but they make it a novel without any strong commentary. Just a romantic novel in many ways, with a bad stepmother, weak father , unpleasant powerful people who deign to become part of the village on a whim etc. So, that all said, can I relate to Wives and Daughters as a novel with what little social commentary there is , particularly in this section, muted because we are caught up in romance and the old saw of the bad stepmother?Let's look at her, now Mrs Gibson with two daughters, a place of sorts in society and no economic worries. What compelled her to marry again? Economics and opportunity. However, unlike many middle class women in that period, Mrs Gibson has managed to extricate herself from being a governess to being a married woman, widow and then a teacher in her own school. This is interesting in itself. How did she manage it? Her husband left her with some means? While being independent of Lady Harriet, Mrs Gibson retains her supine attitude , based on class and her previous position as her governess. Marriage and an independent career have done nothing to change her attitude that to be married is the supreme state. With marriage, she is free from teaching and can impose her frustrations on her daughters. What is Gaskell saying with her portrayal of Mrs Gibson? Is it that she is just the foil against whom good Molly can be seen? I want more than this.
Mr Gibson, sympathised with by most of the readers who have commented, but in my view a weak man who, while accepting the love of his daughter does little to reciprocate it. He has all the power in the relationship, and wields it , often to Molly's detriment. It would be good to see Molly recognise this and fend for her own interests - possibly this might happen. Although it currently appears she will marry Roger in the end.
Molly and Cynthia are a good twosome, in a similar relationship with Mrs and Mr Gibson and taking their own ways in dealing with it. But I also worry about Cynthia's lack of appreciation of Molly's feelings for Roger.
I am pleased to be encouraged to continue reading because of being in this group. But i am rather disappointed with the novel - but, I hasten to say, not all the opinions expressed about it , even if they are not as jaded as mine!
Mod
Mr Gibson I think seems a lot like Mr Bennett to me- to an extent- ready to do anything to have peace in his house- and to not be bothered with anything.
Lady Clementina wrote: "Robin wrote: "I am finding it hard to come to grips with this renowned novel. North and South is such an obviously political novel, without being polemical, and this one (to me) seems to meander wi..."Oh, very good point!
Robin wrote: "I am finding it hard to come to grips with this renowned novel. North and South is such an obviously political novel, without being polemical, and this one (to me) seems to meander with a little bi..."In the first chapters, Robin, I thought like you in your first paragraph: What's this novel? And this question bothered my reading.
Then I "stopped thinking", and just took pleasure in reading the story, the romance, the description of this English society, all these secondary characters who are often exasperating, like Miss Phoebe! Her brain is filled with fromage frais!
And now, I really like WandD! That's why that's why I didn't intervene a lot this week: I'm so advanced in my reading that I'm afraid to reveal chapters which haven't been read yet.
And thank you Kerstin for this reading!
Lady Clementina wrote: "Robin wrote: "I am finding it hard to come to grips with this renowned novel. North and South is such an obviously political novel, without being polemical, and this one (to me) seems to meander wi..."Oui, oui..!
Linda wrote: "Seconding lots of the opinions already expressed. First, though, this seems to have been a section of mystery- Osborne’s wife (totally unexpected), the relationship between Cynthia, her mother and ..."I absolutely agree about Molly. It seems like as Molly would be maturing in age and experience, Gaskell is developing Molly's character as the novel progresses.
Gabrielle wrote: "Robin wrote: "I am finding it hard to come to grips with this renowned novel. North and South is such an obviously political novel, without being polemical, and this one (to me) seems to meander wi..."I am basically doing the same thing -- a victorian novel with a romance, who will Molly end up with, and description of English society.
Sounds like Mr Preston may have been flirting with both mother and daughter. It will be interesting to find out. I wish I had an English class chart so I could keep track of which people are "better" than others.
Thank you all who commented kindly on my rather nonliterary tirade! I shall do as you have done, Gabrielle and take pleasure in what Gaskell has presented us with. I really like the descriptive parts where I feel so at one with the location, and everyone is right, really, there is so much to enjoy if we accept that this novel is less political and more domestic.I wondered the same, Connie, re mother and daughter.
A class chart would be interesting. I think that one great image is that of Lady Harriet with her knees up and feet on the fender. Poor Mrs G. does not know what to do! Lady Harriet couldn't care less what anyone thinks, whereas Mrs G. would care about what everyone thinks. That is one example of class difference made so nicely.
Robin wrote: "I am finding it hard to come to grips with this renowned novel. North and South is such an obviously political novel, without being polemical, and this one (to me) seems to meander with a little bit of class comment, some gender politics, some power discrepancies that result in the less powerful suffering - in a way. It seems to not really know wherever it is going - ... These are interesting enough problems, but they make it a novel without any strong commentary. Just a romantic novel in many ways, ..." Perhaps have Charles Dickens for an editor during the publishing of the initial serialized form of N&S in his magazine Household Words, made N&S the way it is. I read that Dickens made Gaskell's life miserable with the various edits of the story and even then (supposedly) she was forced to end the story sooner than perhaps she would have like herself.
For that reason, I don't think one is supposed to outright compare W&D to N&S, Robin**. It is more along the lines of "Cranford" (for which I think Gaskell is more known for anyway).
ETA: **despite some obvious similarities between the characters especially that of Molly and Margaret, and also being published initially as serialized stories in literary magazines.
Mod
message 50:
by
Lady Clementina, Moderator
(last edited Jan 24, 2018 08:37AM)
(new)
-
rated it 4 stars
Mod
Re the end of N&S, yes, I've read that too- and it does seem abrupt when one comes to it.
But re the themes she writes about, there is a range of things, isn't there- Cranford and W&D perhaps similar categories as you say, Molly Barton and North and South - in some way or other touching on working people. Her short story Lois the Witch is in some ways one of the scariest things I've read- because it was all too real.
Victorians!
Books mentioned in this topic
Castle Rackrent (other topics)Fabulous Histories. Designed For The Instruction Of Children, Respecting Their Treatment Of Animals. (other topics)
Mr. Gibson and Mrs. Kirkpatrick are married, the ceremony only taking 10 minutes. Molly went to and from the church with the Lord and Lady Cumnor as well as their daughter, Lady Harriet. Lady Harriet strikes up an acquaintance with Molly, and Molly isn’t all too happy that Lady Harriet speaks to her in a patronizing fashion. When Molly finally gets home to the Brownings, Phoebe waits for her on the stairs, “with a lighted candle in her hand, peering into the darkness to see Molly come in.”
The newlyweds come home and settle in. Molly is forced to call her stepmother ‘mamma.’ In a twist of irony, Mr. Coxe, whose ill-fated love-letter had started the events up to now, is called to live with his great-uncle for the remainder of the uncle’s life if he wants to inherit.
There is a constant stream of callers into the Gibson home to welcome the new bride. One day Squire Hamley also comes by, but not to see Mrs. Gibson, but to fetch Molly to Hamley Hall, as his wife is very ill and wants her company. Mrs. Gibson doesn’t care for the attention to be diverted to her stepdaughter, so she forces under a pretense for the Squire to pick her up in the morning.
Not all is well at Hamley Hall. The gentle and tranquil life of the family is disrupted by accumulated debts of their son Osborne, who on top of it flunked out of college. A nurse is called in to assist Mrs. Hamley. Her rapid decline is a great sorrow in the house and Molly is increasingly left to her own devices. By accident she is present when Roger gives Osborne a letter sent to him by his wife. She promises she will not tell anyone of the secret.
Cynthia, Mrs. Gibson’s daughter, arrives in Hollingford at last. She and her mother have an estranged relationship, and Mrs. Gibson neither picks her up at the station nor makes her especially welcome at home. The two young women get along quite well.
Mr. Preston makes a surprise visit to the Gibson’s, but he is strangely unwelcome.