Uncomfortable realities and your next choice

[Pam]

In her introduction to the book, Emma mentions that she went through an "interrogation of self" peeling back the layers of her own concious and unconscious decisions and opinions.

So I am curious about our individual reactions and similar interactions with the information presented by Eddo-Lodge. This is a two part question because I fully believe that while knowledge is power, we still need to act.

While reading this book what made you uncomfortable?
After reading this book what are you going to do about it?

[Pam]

I haven't finished reading but in Chapter 2: The System there are accounts about racial profiling and how hard it is to get ahead. It bothers me because I do come from a racist family. And I can hear them quoting these stats as proof as to why they are correct. Context is key. Numbers can be swayed for any argument so we must be careful and we must continue to push ahead.

More than ever I want to create a growing knowledge base by creating internship opportunities and talking to young people. And while I've been able to increase the number of opportunities for women, we have yet to hire someone who is Black. Asian, yes. Latin American, yes, Middle Eastern, yes. Black... Not yet. Not having the candidates isn't a good enough reason for me anymore.

[Rebecca]

In my field of daycare I have seen more diversity at locations that help to solve other social/economic problems within smaller communities. These centers also are big on helping to support and grow employees into their position with courses and tuition help. But with a different population center and client the diversity changes. This disheartened me. I think everyone is an educator and I think our youth need to see equality in their education.

[Stella]

I realized when Emma posted the new selection that I had read the title essay as an internet blog about a year or so ago. I had taken some African-American history and African literature courses in college. Have African-American cousins. I was deeply moved by the news when Black Lives Matter began. But growing up in largely white communities, I was at a loss. I tentatively asked what I could do to help, and was told some variation of 1. listen, 2. show up at protests, and 3. talk to other white people about race. The middle one has been hardest, since there really aren't any protests in my immediate area. I have "listened" through reading. And I am trying to talk to other white people, because it has become obvious to me that this is a painful burden black people have shouldered for too long. No one I know thinks they are a racist. But...they occasionally do make racist comments, stereotyping remarks, or commit microaggressions without knowing it. And I'm trying to address these when they happen instead of ignoring it. Most people I encounter don't want to talk about race, or get very defensive. I was actually once accused of being a racist by a student -- for talking about racism! So this is not easy. It is hard. I go into reading this book wanting to know how to do this better, wanting to know more, and wanting to better identify any remaining prejudices I might still have within me.

[Ross]

Pam wrote: "In her introduction to the book, Emma mentions that she went through an "interrogation of self" peeling back the layers of her own concious and unconscious decisions and opinions.

So I am curious ..."

So far I have been challenged by the book. what am I going to do. well first I shall write a review tying into Emma's introduction this will act as a framework for the thoughts and feeling I get from the experience of reading the book. The use of Emma's impressions will be an excellent method of analyzing my hopefully increased self-awareness and awareness of my privilege as a white male.

[Pam]

@Jenna, @Stella. I think your both touching on the same thought. How can we do more than just reading and learning? What meaningful contributions can we make in a) places where we're not in charge and b) places where there isn't population diversity?

Even this discussion can be fraught with complications. Is this thread White Savior complex on overdrive? When does helping cross the line?

I think we can tackle microaggressions.
- Making eye contact with people you're speaking to
- Learning and correctly pronounceing people's names
- Noticing if the demographic numbers are off aka, if you're in a city council meeting and you notice the representatives don't represent the population completely
- Notice if your colleagues aren't getting the credit or same appreciation as others.
- Write letters to the editor about things you see in the paper/online media that can be racist or enforcing stereotypes
- Challenge our own grudges and judgements.

What else?

[Pam]

ShotgunBAm wrote: "...think everyone is an educator and I think our youth need to see equality in their education.

What a fantastic position. You can train the trainers as it were. Or be the example others follow.

[Pam]

Ross wrote: "well first I shall write a review tying into Emma's introduction this will act as a framework for the thoughts and feeling I get from the experience of reading the book.."

Looking forward to it Ross!

[[deleted user]]

I haven't finished to read the book yet thus I can only answer to your first question.

What it makes me unconfortable while reading this book until now is the fact I became aware the privileges we (white people) have now, are the result of a violent racism and a lot of pain cause of what our ancestry did.

I'll give you a more complete answer when I finish the book. : )

[Ross]

This is a challenging read and we all of all races and creeds may have Reevaluate our core precepts. but that is no bad thing and has always been the first stage to real change for individual and society's

[Kristie]

Pam wrote: "In her introduction to the book, Emma mentions that she went through an "interrogation of self" peeling back the layers of her own concious and unconscious decisions and opinions.

So I am curious ..."

What made me most uncomfortable was while reading I would be reminded of things I had believed, thought, said, or done when I was younger and more ignorant of what racism really was and how the experience of persons of color were so drastically different than my own. I know as a white person that I can't know what it's like to be a POC but as I've gotten older, spoken to more people, read more books, and worked hard to educate myself on the topic, I feel I finally am beginning to understand the problem and now I am starting to find the places I can make a difference.

The most recent thing I've done is join a group at the community college where I work that one of my colleagues is leading. The group is about supporting minority men in higher education through various initiatives around the college, and through activities aimed at the community, the students, and the faculty/staff.

Other than that, I have other books on my shelf I am reading/going to read and other workshops and events scheduled on my calendar.

[Pam]

Kristie wrote: "I feel I finally am beginning to understand the problem and now I am starting to find the places I can make a difference."

Thank you for adding this. I know I personally like to react immediately - for good or for ill. I feel that your statement reminds me that all of this isn't a sprint. And equally, that as we look further into this issue we can begin to see things that we may have missed if we jumped in head first. It's as if you're giving permission to engage and chew on what we can do for a more meaningful contribution later. Thank you.

Kristie wrote: "The most recent thing I've done is join a group at the community college where I work that one of my colleagues is leading. The group is about supporting minority men in higher education through various initiatives around the college, and through activities aimed at the community, the students, and the faculty/staff."

Has anything changed for you since you joined the community college group to now after reading the book?

[Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

I am still reading it, but as others have said, I think for me it was uncomfortable to realise that in the past I have thought things that are racist, and even said some, and so have my acquaintances in several degrees. Likewise and most importantly...I have failed to see certain things, and I never really thought of "black history month" or "black issues", because I didn't need to.

That's the thing. That us white people can go through life without knowing more than the abc on POC (ie the strict introduction pack with Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, add a couple more, the vague notion that they were good and they fought for "end of racism"), and it's OK, nothing's gonna force us to go beyond that and still we think we can comment freely on lots of things.

What I'm trying to do is, well, I try to think twice about everything now. I also try not to get salty if I read stuff on the Internet calling "white people" out or mentioning how we "ruin stuff" or "don't get a thing". Yeah, OK, maybe I'm not like that personally, not entirely, but it's not about me, really. So instead of throwing a tantrum I can shut up and listen, and it's OK if I don't talk.

[Maggie]

I found the book very educational. Within the last year I've been really seeking out material and view points like this so it was less uncomfortable for me than when I was reading Tears We Cannot Stop or We Were Eight Years In Power. Both educational and very uncomfortable in the ways they opened my eyes to systemic oppression all around me and how my own life has benefited from that. This month's read was a great expansion on that into a shared history of systemic issues, and helped to illustrate for me that this is not just a US problem.

I frequently feel frustrated by what feels like a lack of ability to do anything about it. I have been working on being more aware of what is happening around me, countering microaggressions when I can, actively seeking PoC voices on matters and thoroughly listening without reacting and speaking up when I can.

Awareness has led to some awkward situations with both family and coworkers. But it has also led to some good conversations that have maybe started some others on the path to being more aware. And any awkwardness I feel in these situations is nothing compared to having to being the target of this crap.

I know it's not enough, but it's start and hopefully listening to those with the knowledge and experience will lead to knowing what other actions I might be able to help with.

[Pam]

@Ana."What I'm trying to do is, well, I try to think twice about everything now. I also try not to get salty if I read stuff on the Internet calling "white people" out or mentioning how we "ruin stuff" or "don't get a thing".

So very true. The need for listening and not taking things personally is huge.

And - a wee bit off topic- this has personally aided me in understanding what our male feminists accomplish or the LGBQT or intersex for that matter.

For some of us we really have no ground or iota of experience in not being our gender or our race. We have never been anyone but ourselves.It's hard, in the sense of having to develop these underused skills, to stop reacting and applying MY experience to something I can never fully understand. To fully stop and to remove me/ego/I/myself out of the exchange.

Thank you for your honesty.

@Maggie it very much is a start.

Can you share any guidance to the rest of us on what you have found helpful?

[Pam]

Rereading this I noticed I didn't thank Lewis and Emma for their comments too. I can't wait to read what you think once you're done reading, too. :)

[[deleted user]]

Pam wrote: "Rereading this I noticed I didn't thank Lewis and Emma for their comments too. I can't wait to read what you think once you're done reading, too. :)"

You're welcome @Pam : )

My reading is in progress... I'm mid book now but I'm a turtle 'cause there're always intresting comments to read here ! ; )

[Pam]

Partly.

I love being able to wrestle with the text and pull from it tidbits to chew on later. Comments help me see things that others are picking up on that I may have missed or help me approach things from a different perspective.

I also am working on being more action oriented. Knowledge is great, but I personally know I need to work on taking that info and apply it to my person in some form or fashion. Or rather, I want to apply knowledge for more things than Trivia Nights.

[Stella]

I wish there was some kind of like button on Goodreads. I value the other comments and learn from people's different perspectives. Sometimes I recognize my own thought processes in others. I don't always have a lot to add.

Right now I am very excited by the new books coming out this year. Previously when I asked what I could do to help, I was directed to a book Uprooting Racism https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1... which was supposed to be THE book for white people to understand racism. But I felt that it was oriented toward older white men written by a middle aged white man...and I honestly didn't get much out of it. I was like, I already know this, what's next? But I was afraid to ask a person of color, because I didn't want to be that white girl seeking to have all her answers given to her or something. I didn't want to add to the burden.

This year we have both Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race and So You Want to Talk About Race, both by Black women. Just what I've read so far has made so much more sense than anything I've read by white men trying to explain the same topic. I'm sorry if that offends, but it is my personal truth. I feel it is so sad that many people of color are forced to stop talking about race to whites for their own sanity when it could be the only thing that gets through to some of us.

I want to buy copies of these books and give them away to everyone I meet. Unfortunately, many people in our community do not read (not illiterate, per se, but choose not to outside of school). I just love that these books now exist and hope people choose to read them -- choosing a book to read seems better than requiring it in every secondary school or college, though that might help, too. In fact, donating multicultural books to our local primary school has been one of the only actions I could come up with, and then only when I could afford it.

I don't have answers. But I am glad to be in the process with others. Hope that makes sense.

[[deleted user]]

Emma wrote: "Lewis wrote: "Pam wrote: "Rereading this I noticed I didn't thank Lewis and Emma for their comments too. I can't wait to read what you think once you're done reading, too. :)"

You're welcome @Pam ..."

Yes, I push F5 on my keyboard while reading the book to see if new comments are posted. It's very interesting to know the point of view of others to enlighten ours. It helps to understand indeed.

And the majority of people here are very open and cool. It's really a pleasure to discuss here for me. : )

[[deleted user]]

What made me uncomfortable, to be honest several points.

1) White privileges: In my heart I knew it, in my mind I was not fully aware of that, now I am.

>> Well, I know that whites have privileges and I definitely got benefits from it (Slavery helped Europe to develop itself for example, and it was totally based on racism).
I cannot fix what has been done, so I am just doing what it seems fair to me by recognizing whites have some privileges and by acting fairly with everyone.
In other words, I do not care about the appearances, I notice them of course but it does not interfer with my opinion of someone.

In the end our bloody blood is red no matter who we are! (even a highness has red blood :) )

2) The meaning of racism in the book.
I have the feeling that sometime it is another type of discrimination rather than racism.

>> I cannot really act on it. Sometime people are using the same word but for them the meaning is totally or slightly different. I have been fully aware of if 4-5 months ago and now I constantly ask "What do you mean by *word*?" "What is the definition of *word* for you?" if the discussion is about serious opinion or choices.
Sometime it takes so much time, and if the person is impatient, upset or not open-minded it is useless.

3) Racism is not reversible. To what I understood (maybe I did not get it at all!), it is told in the book that a black person cannot be racist to (or toward, once again I do not know sorry) a white person. I am not really convinced by that.


@Pam: when you are saying "knowledge is power" do you mean "knowledge is a form of power"?

[Stella]

Florian wrote: "What made me uncomfortable, to be honest several points...

3) Racism is not reversible. To what I understood (maybe I did not get it at all!), it is told in the book that a black person cannot be racist to (or toward, once again I do not know sorry) a white person. I am not really convinced by that."

This is a hard one. I have been taught that there is no such thing as reverse racism. It does not exist, because by definition only the person with power can be racist. I get this intellectually...but...

When discussing racism in white spaces, there's always that one person who has an example of facing an angry person of color...who seems to be angry at them for no other reason than that they are white. I will admit that I have examples of this myself. So, okay, it isn't reverse racism. But is there a name for it? Something besides the stereotype of "angry (insert race of person here)"?

This makes it really hard to counter the accusation of reverse racism when it comes from my extended family. I understand there's a lot of anger at repeat racism, but when it lashes out at people who maybe are committing only a minor microaggression without even realizing, or something... What do we call it?

[Nicole Gonzales]

Jenna wrote: "I think Emma was definitely right in describing this book as an interrogation of self.

One thing that really got me when reading this book was when she described speaking to her friend's partner a..."

I had the exact same reaction when reading this passage of the book and I am still struggling with it.

To me, this story demonstrated how hard it is to ever "prove" something happened directly because of racism. I think collectively as white people, we can acknowledge that racism exists, but we are hesitant to label a particular action as racist. We say maybe it was something else that led to the white woman being selected. The problem is, we have no way to prove racism in these particular instances, thus no one ever thinks that they are part of the problem. I notice there is a sort-of Gaslighting of the people who are calling out specific instances racism...labeling them as "obsessed with race" or "troublemakers" as REL puts it, to the point where they are then hesitant to call it out in specific instances. If we know racism is deeply-rooted and structurally present, we have to actually assume racism was the cause. As white people, we have to start noticing and calling out these moments and acknowledging that racism is the norm, not the exception. We have to stop with the "it might not be racism" line and start listening to the people who racism negatively effects.

I don't know if this makes sense, but I am still trying to reconcile my reaction to this part of the book.

[Candace]

On the topic of uncomfortable realities, “interrogation of self”, and next choices:

I am a Chinese-American. I’m first generation born in the US. I grew up in a small town and found myself to be the only Asian person in my school. As I went through grade school, it was quite clear to me that I was “different.” I have experienced discrimination and racism. One moment in my life has always stood out to me: I am a health care provider. At one point in my career, I had a new patient come into my office. When he saw me, he immediately turned back to the receptionist. He told the receptionist that he refused to see me because I was Chinese. It was really the first time that I had experienced something like that before; or maybe it was the first time that I noticed. Since then, I experienced (or noticed) more situations like this because of my race. Then, I got married.

I married a white man. My last name changed from a Chinese last name to a common “white” last name. When I call customer service numbers, people talk to me differently than before. They don’t see my face, but just my “white” name. There are no more assumptions that this Asian girl would know about bank math or technology. I quickly realized that I would gain advantages because I am married to a white man. The honest truth is, growing up, I didn’t really think about white privilege because I am not white. The uncomfortable reality is, that because my husband is white, I will at some point have white privilege trickled down to me. I realize that marrying a white man does not make me white. But for the first time, I am on the other side of white privilege; reaping some of the “benefits.”

This book has forced me to interrogate myself and be self-reflexive about my privilege. In my education, I was always aware of and understood white privilege. My husband and I have had conversations about the topic. I’m also thankful that my husband has taken steps to be more aware of his privilege. This book has not only influenced myself, but my families to have uncomfortable discussions that people are unwilling to have. It is essential that we are self-reflexive, that we make decisions that make us more aware of privilege, and that we refuse to ignore structural racism.

[Pam]

Nicole Gonzales wrote: " As white people, we have to start noticing and calling out these moments and acknowledging that racism is the norm, not the exception ."

It makes a lot of sense. Eddo-Lodge writes later that white people need to talk to other white people "Yes, you might be written off as a radical, but you have much less to lose" which really snapped right between my eyes.

White people mught be called out. And our family might ignore us or identidy you as That One. But is that that bad? Compared to red lining m gentrification, employment woes, educational oppressession. Etc. Etc.

[Pam]

Candace wrote: "On the topic of uncomfortable realities, “interrogation of self”, and next choices:

I am a Chinese-American. I’m first generation born in the US. I grew up in a small town and found myself to be t..."

Thank you so much for sharing Candace. Good or bad we don't truly realize how much of our world is out of our hands.

[[deleted user]]

I'm done to read the book now. : )

What made me unconfortable :

While reading the book, I figured out my white privileges avoid me to face a lot of problems in my life since the begining. I also understood I owe these privileges to the awful things my ancestry did. It made me aware that my own education of "colour-blindness" was not a good solution to fight racism 'cause racism is structural and we have to change the structure of our society to make a fairer world.

What I'm gonna do about it :

I have to change my behavior and start seeing the differences between people I meet everyday to understand what problems they're facing to. Then I have to act at my level by influencing an hiring for example. I'm gonna try to speak more about racism as well, speaking is a very good way to change the world at our level.

[[deleted user]]

Emma wrote: "Lewis wrote: "I'm done to read the book now. : )

What made me unconfortable :

While reading the book, I figured out my white privileges avoid me to face a lot of problems in my life since the beg..."

I think everyone can do something at his level.

We just have to find how we can help... : )

[[deleted user]]

Lewis wrote: "Emma wrote: "Lewis wrote: "I'm done to read the book now. : )

What made me unconfortable :

While reading the book, I figured out my white privileges avoid me to face a lot of problems in my life ..."

I agree with you everyone can, but not everyone want to or sometime we are simply not aware of the situation. I do like your idea! ;)

[Paige]

I think for me the thing that really hit me was that I unintentionally saw the world through my white privilege. I was never naive to assume that my race didn’t afford me more freedoms and luxuries than ethnic minority individuals (specifically women) - indeed, as a teacher that works in an inner London school I always try to encourage an open and honest dialogue about the issues that my students will face that I can not even begin to comprehend. But I realised that my white privilege has led to an internalisation of white as the norm ... something that I hadn’t really ever thought about until I was smacked in the face with the realisation. The examples of Bond and Hermione as being assumed and consistently portrayed as white particularly hit home for me. I was supportive of the idea of a ‘black Bond’ and ‘black Hermione’ when they were in the press but when I read those books I read those characters as white - particularly Hermione who I had essentially read as myself. What seemed like a step forward in terms of diversity actually wasn’t challenging or radical at all - why should these fictional characters not be black? I found myself texting my partner to talk through the idea that unless it is explicitly stated in a text that a character is of an ethnic minority background, we simply assume them to be white...

So where do I go from here?

I think it’s about challenging the quick assumptions, both our own and from those around us. Continuing to have those open and honest dialogues with whoever I can. Challenging views quickly and passionately - unafraid of creating division and tension. Prompting debate about how the world is and how it is perceived - there is a difference.

I will also be buying a hard copy of the book for my classroom library - my students need to read it, absorb it and explore it because the ideas are much better explained than anything I have ever managed to put into words.

[Pam]

That's a great way of paying it forward, Paige.

[[deleted user]]

Paige wrote: "I think for me the thing that really hit me was that I unintentionally saw the world through my white privilege. I was never naive to assume that my race didn’t afford me more freedoms and luxuries..."

It's a very good idea to make your students study this book @Paige.

Everything start with knowledge share and education.

[SW]

@Florian @Stella

When a person of color treats a white person badly because of their race, it is called prejudice.

Anyone can be prejudiced. But black people can’t be racist, because racism means there is a whole structure in place supporting your prejudice. Since there aren’t enough black people in positions of power for that structure to exist, then it’s not racism. It’s prejudice.

Hope that helps.

[[deleted user]]

Joanna wrote: "@Florian @Stella

When a person of color treats a white person badly because of their race, it is called prejudice.

Anyone can be prejudiced. But black people can’t be racist, because racism means..."

It did help thanks ;)

[Stella]

Joanna wrote: "@Florian @Stella

When a person of color treats a white person badly because of their race, it is called prejudice.

Anyone can be prejudiced. But black people can’t be racist, because racism means..."

Thank you. Yes, it helps to have a name for it.

[Heidi]

What made me uncomfortable:

The section around white privilege and realizing I had absolutely benefited from said privilege throughout my life. Also, the conversation with the white woman about the job, I am sad to say at first I agreed with her. I think I don't even realize how inherent and unconscious racism is in our world and how we just think it is a thing of the past but that is so not the case.

What I am going to change:

Speaking my truth, there are racist people in my life. Like outwardly racist and I plan to speak my truth and my beliefs around these people. I think conversations can create change. Saying nothing because I don't want to rock the boat is not helping anyone. I also think being aware of unconscious bias during hiring and at work will make me a better employee as I work in HR.

This book sorta left me reeling, I am still processing it and took a lot from it.

[Pam]

Hey all,

It's been a year since OSS has recommended Reni Eddo-Lodge's book Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race . Reni Eddo-Lodge

And I wanted to check in to see how everyone was doing with their goals posted above or any that you were committed to after finishing the book.

How have things gone?
What have you noticed in general?
What have you noticed about yourself?
Have conversations changed between you and others in your communities? (Family, friends, work, etc)

[Pam]

For me:

- At work, I have really started making a push into working with schools that have a larger POC candidate pool than some of our traditional schools in the past. This has led us into bringing in more diverse candidates for interviews than in the past.

- Otherwise, I have been paying particular attention to the books I read. I have tried to make sure to read more POC work. (Though, looking over the numbers it's heavily in favor of WOC than MOC...)

- And specifically paying attention to the characters within. In film, there is something called the DuVernay test. The test looks at African-American characters and other minorities to see if they have fully realized lives rather than serve as scenery in white stories. It's really helped point out when authors have relied on tropes like the The Magical Negro or Primitivism to justify their characters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primiti...

What about you? Any successes? Concerns? Areas where you don't know how to go forward?

Individually, (I know and I'm sure others), we can admit that we are no experts on this sort of discourse. But together we can help all of to see more clearly and act intersectionally.