Chapters 9-11

[Tracy]

For discussion of chapters 9-11 for anyone who has read them.

[Tracy]

Reflections on chapter 9:

Dostoevsky often creates emotional chaos, even brawls, among groups of people.

In regard to Ivolgin's Lady and the Dog narrative (I'm reminded of Chekhov's Lady and the Dog story which some of us read, but don't think it had the same anecdote in it), it leads us to further distrust Ivolgin's storytelling since clearly he's making up stories in order to impress - and passing them off as fact.

What isn't mentioned in this supposedly clever story is the cruelty to the dog, which is probably killed in being thrown from the train. We animal lovers take offense at that.

Symbolically, it also leads me to reflect again on Dostoevsky's disdain for the "animal self" in humans. He seems to have a very strong split between the animal/physical and the spiritual.

In this chapter, we also become aware of how haughty Nastassia is, and how quick she is to be insulting -- insulting the residence of the Ivolgins. Ganya's family is hostile to Nastassia, so she jokes in a hostile way herself to defend herself. It seems that she uses a cruel form of mockery as a defense.

Clearly, she's been emotionally damaged by her circumstance with Totsky - and maybe even before when she lost both her parents. (Curiously, in this regard both she and Mishkin both experienced early loss of their parents).

She thinks she's seen the Prince before. I wonder if there is some hidden history here that will be revealed to us.

[Tracy]

In chapter 10, I am particularly struck by the Prince's moral center of gravity. When Ganya hits his sister, Myshkin appeals to Ganya's conscience - at least clearly so in the Martin and Garnett translation. In the Avsey translation, the appeal to the conscience is implied, but the wording could be taken another way - as if there might be external rather than internal consequences.

AVSEY: "One day you'll really come to regret this."
GARNETT: "Oh, how ashamed you will be of what you've done."
MARTIN and WHISHAW (strangely enough, identical):
"Oh, how ashamed you will be afterwards."

I bought both the Avsey and Pevear version (the others are free online) but spent the last two days looking for the Pevear version - the one I've been reading and annotating - without any luck. And I can only conclude that I left it either at Starbucks or on the bus which has really been upsetting me.

So if any of you lurkers out there have the Pevear version, would you kindly post the translation from near the end of chapter 10?
Or anyone reading the McDuff translation - would you post the translation of the above line and also the one below?

Also, here's a comparison of a passage a few lines afterwards of Myshkin's comment to Nastassia in regard to her behavior:

AVSEY: "And you're not even ashamed."
GARNETT: "Aren't you ashamed?"
MARTIN/WISHAW: "Oh, aren't you ashamed of yourself - aren't you ashamed?"

It seems to me that the earlier translations (Avsey above is the only contemporary one I posted) have more emotional punch. Avsey is much more lukewarm, and more in the head than in the emotions. These different translations do give us a slightly different impression of Mishkin.

Gosta, can you translate your Swedish version for us?

(Come to think of it - how other people project their own feelings and motives onto Myshkin is a key feature of this novel, but here Myshkin may be doing his own projection - expecting others to have the same sensitivity of conscience that he has).

[Gösta]

To compare your different versions with the Swedish translations is to translate translations but it is not a hopeless task.

The first one:
AVSEY: "One day you'll really come to regret this."
GARNETT: "Oh, how ashamed you will be of what you've done."
MARTIN and WHISHAW (strangely enough, identical):
"Oh, how ashamed you will be afterwards."

The Swedish (Ulla Roseen) is almost identical with Garnett.

The second one:
AVSEY: "And you're not even ashamed."
GARNETT: "Aren't you ashamed?"
MARTIN/WISHAW: "Oh, aren't you ashamed of yourself - aren't you ashamed?"

Roseen: "Aren't you not at all ashamed?" and is for me the strongest of them at all.

But then .. "You are not such a person you now is trying to seem to be. I just know it, it is impossible!"

and later on when she leaves she says: "It is true, I am not such a person, he is right,"

As we have seen earlier, Myshkin "sees" who they are and he tells them - what an impact that has on the story. But that may be dangerous - some people want to defend their image to any price.

[Tracy]

Gosta wrote: "As we have seen earlier, Myshkin "sees" who they are and he tells them - what an impact that has on the story. But that may be dangerous - some people want to defend their image to any price."

Well said, Gosta!! Myshkin is perceptive about who people are, more than who they want to be -- and tells the truth of what he sees without full understanding of its possible impact. Doesn't it seem already that he has an odd combination of perceptiveness but also lack of perceptiveness (in regard to social norms, self-image etc.)?

And also being around people with admirable qualities can trigger one's own sense of inadequacy or shame --- so some people may find such people less of an inspiration than a threat.

We certainly see that Ganya has already developed a hostility toward Myshkin and is quick to blame him.

[Nancy]

Tracy wrote: "Gosta wrote: "As we have seen earlier, Myshkin "sees" who they are and he tells them - what an impact that has on the story. But that may be dangerous - some people want to defend their image to an..."

I wonder if Myshkin may not care about social norms and his own image. If that is true then he does not lack perceptiveness, rather he lacks interest in how others perceive him.

I am thinking about how we all tend to admire honesty and truth in some people and deride it in others. It may be that those who speak what they perceive to be the truth do so knowing they may hurt others and proceed anyway. Those are the ones we deride. Does the prince fit into either of these categories? I wonder!

[Tracy]

Sounds right to me, Nancy - that Myshkin didn't care about social norms (whether he knew them or not) or his self-image. Clearly, he was perceptive about people in part because he cared about getting to know them.

I don't think that Myshkin was speaking the truth knowing that he might hurt others. He may simply not be aware that most other people are busy protecting their self-image whereas the idea of protecting his own self-image didn't occur to him!

[Tracy]

On chapter 11 -
Well, at least Ganya now recognizes that he was wrong about Myshkin and admits it. But it appears that Myshkin is right about Ganya's lack of moral compass and vanity, but telling Ganya his opinion of him is not likely to appeal to Ganya's vanity. Just because Ganya is now aware of Myshkin's perceptiveness doesn't mean he likes it.

And he certainly doesn't like being called ordinary!