Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion
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Re-reading 'In Search of Lost Time'
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Jonathan
(last edited Jul 17, 2014 12:48PM)
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Jul 17, 2014 12:32PM
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I'm really surprised though that you've decide to launch straight back into it. You've made me curious and nervous over the revelations at the end of the book but I can't, at this point in the book, think that there's any revelation that would cause me to start to re-read it as soon as I've finished - but we'll have to wait and see!
I'm curious though why re-reading it straight away is preferable to re-reading it after a couple of years? As I'm reading ISOLT I sometimes think that it could be a book that I'd re-read at some point in the future but after the book has had time to sink into my subconscious.
Part of my trepidations over any grand revelation is that it almost makes it sound like a glorified whodunnit, or similar, where the book all leads to one important fact at the end of the book. Now, I dislike such books and I always used to read the end 'revelation' to see if it was worth reading any further; 'if the story wasn't interesting enough in itself then it wasn't worth reading' was how I rationalised it to myself. This is why I'm not overly sensitive about spoilers in Proust - I'm not seeking them out but not too worried if I come across any.
Anyway congratulations again on completing ISOLT and I think you mentioned somewhere about a 'Proust Re-read' Group - I think that'd be a great idea; there must be others from the 2013 group as well who're itching to read it again.
Jonathan wrote: "Hi Dave, I've just read your instructive Amazon review where your enthusiasm for ISOLT comes across brilliantly - hopefully it will encourage more people to read Proust, especially when they realis..."Jonathan, thanks for the kudos on the Amazon review. Your concerns about an immediate reread are well stated and I relate to everyone of the them. Very few ever attempt ISOLT, of those, very few finish. To those in the midst of reading the first time, the idea seems insane. I'll get back to that in a bit. As I began to read last March I had doubts about my staying power. I was encouraged when I got through each volume in succession. It wasn't until half way The Fugitive when I felt "confident" I would finish! On completion I felt giddy, I had endured, I had crossed the Finish Line in The Proust Marathon. From that moment of completion to two days later is posted in Time Regained.
When I realized from the outside resources that I had missed the significance of the ending, went back and looked at Swann's Way, that is when I "got it."
Here is the bottom line in my own words: ISOLT contains TWO novels which use the same text. This is not a spoiler because there is no way for a reader to access (see) the second novel until they have within their own mind all the memories, emotions, and reactions of the first reading. We all must "suffer" in our own way through the first novel (like life) to appreciate the masterpiece of world literature that is the second novel and what it says about life!
We're not talking about "oh I missed that detail the first time" or "now we have foreknowledge of who murdered whom so we know where to look for clues". It is much more profound than that (which all experience is rereading or rewatching movies etc).
After 100 pages of Swann's Way, almost every sentence means something entirely different than the first reading. In the first reading I was watching the clock (one hour up yet so I can read something else?). Second reading is about will I be able to put this down and go to sleep.
Now, here's the catch. I believe the second reading is highly personal. The text has not changed, its the reader that has changed (true with any book or experience, but I believe Proust was counting on two readers). In the first reading we all more or less like and and dislike the same scenes and aspects of the novel. In the second reading, you draw not only on your memories of the first reading, each reader will draw on memories of their own life in a quest of self discovery that is the hallmark of truly great literature (and art). Is this guaranteed to happen? No, I don't believe it is, But I think it is worth the try.
Immediate reread or reread at a later date. The power of the experience in the first Hundred pages compels me to say now. The freshness of the memories and my memory of how I interacted with the text first time is what I believe powers the magnitude of experience I feel initally in the second read. How will both those factors change over time? Not sure I guess it will vary with each person. But the "power of now" (right after my first reading) is 2014 for me, if I choose to wait, what ever now might have revealed will be lost. I long ago reconciled that I couldn't read but a tiny fraction of what I might like. Right now, rereading Proust seems like the best investment of my reading time. If that prospect fades, I'll move on to something else. As Alain de Botton writes of ISOLT, in the end it is only a book.
What I don't understand is why this is such a secret. I have not read every Amazon review, but none that I've read even intimate at the reward of rereading. Marcelita knows this (Marcelita knows everything Proustian). Even if this were more widely talked about, most folks in the US don't read literature anyway.
Mod
I do find that going through each week's reading a second time (I don't always do this) reveals a lot more. I suspect though that what you're talking about is more revealing than that.
Still, I'm enjoying the first read at the moment, so when I become a Proust graduate I should maybe look forward to some Proustian post-graduate reading!
Jonathan wrote: "Thanks for you fascinating reply Dave. I guess that, at this stage (vol. 4), the best thing for me is to keep the option of an immediate re-read open.I do find that going through each week's read..."
Well said Jonathan.
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- re-read immediately so, like Dave, I'll be able to remember my previous interpretations and see if my perceptions will change on a second read;
- use next year to read some biographies and books about Proust and his work, and then return to it to get a full, complete view I may have missed reading it innocently;
- as I mentioned a couple of times, I'm planning to read it in French in a couple of years. So, if I don't re-read it now, maybe it will feel like a fresh read to me since I won't remember that many details and it'll be a whole different language;
I guess I'll have to get there to make this decision...
Mod
Here is the bottom line in my own words: ISOLT contains TWO novels which use the same text. This is not a spoiler because there is no way for a reader to access (see) the second novel until they have within their own mind all the memories, emotions, and reactions of the first reading. We all must "suffer" in our own way through the first novel (like life) to appreciate the masterpiece of world literature that is the second novel and what it says about life!"
As Jonathan said it, your reply was really fascinating, Dave. Especially the section above. Seeing how much you liked it and enthusiastic you feel about ISOLT only adds to my own perception that this is a masterpiece and that I'll regain the time I'm devoting to it.
Renato wrote: "I'm torn between an instant re-read or one in a couple of years. All I know is I'll be re-reading it for sure. Here are some of my cluttered thoughts:- re-read immediately so, like Dave, I'll be ..."
You seem to be on track Renato. I don't believe there is no correct answer, everyone has to decide for themselves.
LOL, Marcel Proust, French Author 1871-1922 is now following me on Twitter! He's alive! And tweeting the entire text of In Search of Lost Time.
This evening I was watching an episodeof Rizzoli and Isles (Homicide Detictive TV Show set in Boston). Two detectives interviewing suspect.Det 1: Where were you on the night your mother was killed?
Suspect: Home alone reading.
Det 1: What were you reading?
Suspect: Proust.
Det 2: I didn't know anyone read Proust anymore.
Det 1: And which of Proust's many volumes were you reading?
Suspect: (No answer)
Det 1: That's a pretty pretentious alibi.
(Suspect wasn't the killer but he was covering up three affairs)
Mod
Jonathan wrote: "The suspect wasn't re-reading Proust then?"lol, Apparently not. But it would make a great new novel. The frustrated protagonist that wants to read Proust but is simply too busy, devises the perfect plan - commit a crime and turn yourself in on the expectation of lots of time in prison to read and perhaps reread! ;)
Have you ever thought about listening to the novel, with or without the book in your hands?Michael Mott on his experience:
"This was the fourth time I had read Proust’s À La Recherche du Temps Perdu in the Scott Moncrieff translation. But it was the first time I followed the book, listening at the same time while the actor Neville Jason read to me, leading me along, taking on the voices of all the characters."
"Neville Jason’s Proust" by Michael Mott
From: Sewanee Review
Volume 122, Number 3, Summer 2014
https://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&...
(I have access to Muse electronically, via the Boston Athenaeum; however, you may spin over to your library to read the Sewanee Review.)
Marcelita wrote: "Have you ever thought about listening to the novel, with or without the book in your hands?Michael Mott on his experience:
"This was the fourth time I had read Proust’s À La Recherche du Temps P..."
Thanks again Marcelita! Fascinating, but my hard-core Proust habit is getting expensive. Now I have subscribed to the Suwanee Review to read the entire article. All these Proust books and paraphernalia are adding up. To whom do I send the bill?
Mod
Maybe I'll try that with my French reading...
There are no French Audio recordings that I know Renato. The only complete unabridged audio of the complete ISOLT is the Naxos production I use narrated by Neville Jason. If you go to the Audible.com site and search for any volume of ISOLT, you can click on the sample and listen for three or four minutes.
In my own rereading I have settled into a leisurely routine. I listen/read 5-10 pages before going to bed (while waiting for mother to kiss me goodnight;)It has become such a luxurious experience its like savoring a fine wine.
Mod
That's a bummer :(
Dave wrote: "In my own rereading I have settled into a leisurely routine. I listen/read 5-10 pages before going to bed (while waiting for mother to kiss me goodnight;)
It has become such a luxurious experience..."
So you're reading 5-10 pages a day now? It's about the same amount as our weekly read. What made you choose this different approach as opposed to reading the books faster like you did the first time?
Dave wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Have you ever thought about listening to the novel, with or without the book in your hands?"...subscribed to the Suwanee Review..."
Just sent an email inquiry to the SA library, asking if they have permission to use MUSE. ;)
I when I was younger, I bought art. Now, I buy books, but the same problems remain...space.
Next week, I will spin over to my library, where I have reserved two issues of the "Bulletin Marcel Proust."
This website may help you find journals/books in the future:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/sewanee...
http://www.worldcat.org/title/bulleti...
As I got into the rereading I found there was just so much to enjoy and consider. Patrick Alexander in his book Field Guide to ISOLT says it nicely when he writes " The hardest thing for Proust readers is to complete the first read." Once you complete the first reading and start over, every page is full of references and allusions from all over the book. You know what is "going to happen", so you just drift and enjoy. Some pages I read and reread. In the first dozen pages of Swann's Way every major theme of the book is referenced or alluded to.
Marcelita wrote: "Dave wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Have you ever thought about listening to the novel, with or without the book in your hands?"...subscribed to the Suwanee Review..."
Just sent an email inquiry to t..."
Thank you so much Marcelita, you are so generous and gracious with your time and Proustian expertise.
Marcelita, I am trying to join the Moderated Yahoo Proust group (the one with 707 members). I applied two weeks ago and my membership got rejected after 14 days when no one approved it. I also sent an email to the list owner with no resonse. Who is in charge of approving application? Are they on vacation? And recommendations would be appreciated.
Dave wrote: "Marcelita, I am trying to join the Moderated Yahoo Proust group (the one with 707 members). I applied two weeks ago and my membership got rejected after 14 days when no one approved it. I also sent..."Ha! I was "rejected" the first time also, so "it's not you." ;)
I am not sure who "approves," but Patrick Alexander and Dr. Mark Calkins, creator of www.tempsperdu.com, the group's website, seem to be two of the founding members.
I know you follow Proust Tweet, Patrick Alexander's twitter account.
https://twitter.com/ProustTweet
Have you ever engaged him, regarding a tweet you enjoyed? Or re-tweeted one?
I never discovered why I was accepted the second time…maybe it was my persistence in applying again or something I wrote about my passion for Marcel.
Or maybe the moderator was on vacation the first time!
Try again in the fall.
Keep me in the loop…
Renato wrote: "I've never tried Audiobooks before, but because of Dave, I am getting curious about listening to one while reading. To bad there are no Portuguese versions of ISOLT.Maybe I'll try that with my Fr..."
This may be a re-post, but here is a French website that has audio.
http://www.litteratureaudio.com/livre...
Swann's Way:
http://www.litteratureaudio.com/livre...
More audio books:
http://www.openculture.com/freeaudiob...
Mod
Marcelita wrote: "Dave wrote: "Marcelita, I am trying to join the Moderated Yahoo Proust group (the one with 707 members). I applied two weeks ago and my membership got rejected after 14 days when no one approved it..."Thank you Marcelita, I'll be persistent.
Dave wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Dave wrote: "Marcelita, I am trying to join the Moderated Yahoo Proust group (the one with 707 members). I applied two weeks ago and my membership got rejected after 14 days when ..."Now...you are not going to believe this. Another coincidence?
I met a new Proustian, who has been a member of the Yahoo Proust Group since the beginning. When she was over for lunch yesterday, I mentioned that you were "rejected," as I was-initially.
She recalled that the membership was rather open, but then the group had a problem with "flamers," so is became more restrictive.
Maybe...you need to continue to demonstrate that you are a sincere Proustian. Think about reaching out to Patrick Alexander directly:
http://www.proustguide.com/PAGES/Auth...
Mod
Are you sure that there's not a test to join? Maybe the prospective member has to memorise every character in ISOLT or learn the bloodline of the Guermantes by heart?
Helpful as always Marcelita. Email sent to Mr Alexander.
Well Jonathan those are sound suggestions for keeping the riff-raff out of the group. However, I would base the sincerity of my claim on the diligence that I adhere to my favorite character's behavior - Aunt Leonie. I have moved my bed over by the window, bought a yellow lemonwood chest of drawers, arrange my pills, rosary and other necessities on my bedside table, and keep the TV on the Catholic Channel so I can coordinate taking my pills with the elevation of the host on each TV Mass. From my perch I keep a watchful eye on our neighbors to see what goes on like if any one passes with larger Asparagus than we have (if so I can call my wife at work tell her to stop at the store on the way home). My wife is having a hard time adjusting to my refusal to go downstairs, my insistence on speaking in French and my calling her Francois. My daughter is still unconvinced that she needs to legally change the name of my grandson to Marcel.Madeleine anyone?
Mod
Great stuff Dave! Do you have an electric buzzer near to your bed to summon Francois when you awake at noon?
I am in the process of completely redecorating my room in authentic "Fin de Siecle" French provential. Sadly, my designated shoppers have not found just the right electric buzzer in antique stores yet. Meanwhile I make do with calling Francois at work when I awaken, Fortunately she has an understanding employer who excuses her daily to come home and bring me my tea, toast, and egg.
Marcelita, you deliver the goods! Patrick Alexander already forwarded my email requesting help to the whole Proust Group. Thanks!
Jonathan wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Dave wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Dave wrote: "Marcelita, I am trying to join the Moderated Yahoo Proust group (the one with 707 members). "Are you sure that there's not a test to join?"
Dave may need a passing mark on these...or just keep us smiling.
Proust Society of Cologne's Quiz
http://www.dmpg.de/quiz/index.html
https://translate.google.com/translat...
Gabriella Alù's Quiz
http://www.marcelproust.it/miscel/qui...
https://translate.google.com/translat...
Patrice Louis' Quiz
http://lefoudeproust.fr/?page_id=138
https://translate.google.com/translat...
Love Encyclopaedia of Marcel Proust and Jean-Paul Enthoven Raphael
http://www.magazine-litteraire.com/me...
https://translate.google.com/translat...
Hmmm, didn't do as well as I had hoped on those quizes, a third reading may be in order.
Well, my email exchange with Patrick Alexander is proving fruitful. He forwarded my email to the whole group and I've gotten several direct replies (including one from NZ). Mr Alexander forwarded me copies of emails where now there is talk of migrating to a new group to refresh the membership rolls. He is going to keep me informed of developments. Thanks again Marcelita, you always know which Proustian Hawthorn bush to shake to get results!
My application to join the Yahoo Proust Group has been approved. Thanks again for the lead Marcelita! With Patrick Alexander leading the Group had a big disscussion about the unknown moderator and how to be more accepting of new members. The Moderator finally came on line today (she's not very active any more) so they are discussing appointing more moderators! The Moderator sent me an en email saying "your application has been approved. You must be a very special person." lol Well I think I'm special, but my wife may have a different word for me.
Dave wrote: "My application to join the Yahoo Proust Group has been approved. Thanks again for the lead Marcelita! With Patrick Alexander leading the Group had a big disscussion about the unknown moderator and ..."Dave wrote: "My application to join the Yahoo Proust Group has been approved. Thanks again for the lead Marcelita! With Patrick Alexander leading the Group had a big disscussion about the unknown moderator and ..."
Oh, yes...I have been following every word from "backstage," and you certainly have been an instant hit...not unlike Forchville, in the eyes of Madame Verdurin. ;)
Two early members of the Yahoo group, (Patrick Alexander and Joel Rich) had wonderful websites, that I stumbled upon during in my infatuation period with Marcel.
(Looking back, I don't know how everyone tolerated me...well, actually my husband kept a 3-minute egg timer on the table.)
The late Joel Rich's website: http://www.proustian.com
(2003-2010...lectures and a play)
Patrick's first website (2007) http://www.whoswhoinproust.com/ was replaced with http://www.proustguide.com.
Another early (1994-1998) Proust website was "Proust Said That." http://zacker.info/pst/
I think it's important to remember these Proust web-pioneers.
Great Links Marcelita, particularly like Joel Rich's My life with Albertine - I'm going to enjoy that at leisure.
Dave wrote: "Great Links Marcelita, particularly like Joel Rich's My life with Albertine - I'm going to enjoy that at leisure."Dave~
Joel Rich's website was one of the first I stumbled upon, when I was "in love" with Marcel. Now, my love has deepened, and Cupid's arrow doesn't compel me to run through the streets in my Fortuny gown, exclaiming Proust's brilliance.
I do ove Joel's lectures on sleep and the animals.
There are so many Proustians who have left us...Joel, Philip Kolb, Shelby Foote, Roger Shattuck...they need to be continually remembered.
Dave wrote: "Well, my email exchange with Patrick Alexander is proving fruitful. He forwarded my email to the whole group and I've gotten several direct replies (including one from NZ). Mr Alexander forwarded m..."Are you not the cat's meow?
Bravo, for awaking the group. Seriously....Monsieur Catalyst!
It is a marvelous group...rather ancient, from 1999 or so, but still filled with a passion for Proust.
Yep, one partner can make a difference....you, from your upstairs Texas window.
He, he shaking the Hawthorn bushes seems to have been theraputic! I'm enjoying the camraderie. Whatever the topic, if its Proust related it is of interest. Thanks again for your help in getting in Marcelita. David
I have finally found an author who states that Proust meant for the book to be reread. David Ellison is Professor of Humanities at the University of Miami (FL). His short book "A Reader's Guide to In Search of Lost Time" has great discussion about the text. But the point I want to note is that near the end of the discussion of Swann's Way he writes:"As is often the case in the Recherche, Proust presupposes a second reading of his novel for its structural coherence to emerge in the mind of his reader."
Earlier there is a paragraph about the role of rereading in understanding Swann's Way.
Mod
Interesting, Dave.
BTW I'll probably set up some extra folders/threads for re-reads and supplementary reading when I get the time.
I like to collect blogs. Here is just a random one from Michael Leddy, when he just finished reading the novel. http://mleddy.blogspot.com/2006/11/pr...
Mod
Over the last few days I have been rereading Roger Shattuck's book since I know Renato plans to read and Jonathan is reading his book. This was one of the first books I read when I finished ISOLT last Summer. But I need to qualify that statement. I read hardly any non-fiction cover to cover, sequentially, or completely. Rather I read "around in" them grazing as my current interest suits me. However, this rereading, I read most of the book at one point or another. There are places I didn't read before where I get lost. I think I understand the basic "stereoscopic" idea, but I don't follow the pseudoscientific justification. Its an interesting idea, but its not provable with math on a blackboard, lets move on.My experience with this Proust material is that no two critical books, blogs, video's etc agree on much of anything beyond some basics. That's Ok, I consider what they say, take what I find useful, leave the rest and move on.
Mod
I plan to read this one at some point (I'm not reading it at the moment but I finished Patrick Alexander's book) but I'm not sure how well I will take to all this literary analysis and criticism as historically I don't cope with it very well. At the moment I'm planning on reading 'Night at the Majestic', 'M. Proust's Library' and the Carter bio. I will probably have a look at Beckett's essay on Proust as well, which should be interesting.
So, anyway I will tackle the Shattuck book and maybe some others and see where I end up. I usually get annoyed when literary critics seem to be 'inventing' too much or have some grand scheme that they want to impress everyone with.
BTW, have you been tempted to read any Mme de Sevigne's essays, Dave?
Heh, If its a book I'm tempted Jonathan. I read a number of essayists when younger but can't think of the last time. So no, probably not.Meanwhile, what happened to your Proust picture? I always told folks I was in direct contact with the Master himself. Now there is this ruffian smoking a cigarette! Mon Dieu, what would Proust's grandmother say.
Which brings to mind, did anyone in ISOLT smoke? I don't recall. Marcelita?
