The Old Curiosity Club discussion
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The Pickwick Papers
The Pickwick Papers
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PP, Chp. 01-02
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Stephen
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Jan 12, 2018 01:34AM
I think it is better that the club has no founding objective. It adds to the absurdity, a club for the sake of a club. That’s kind of the thing children would do, have a club where running it is the whole point. I take the members as just needing the sense of belonging to something that is deemed important.
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In terms of his prose style, is there such thing as Early Dickens and Late Dickens?It is only two chapters in for me, but I noted subjectively that the writing style reminded me a bit of American Notes and also A Christmas Carol, which I have usually taken to be Early Dickens.
Mod
It is only two chapters in for me, but I noted subjectively that the writing style reminded me a bit of American..."
Yes, I would say so. in broad and general terms -in my opinion, anyway - early Dickens is much less plotted out and lacks a serious tone that seeps into the narrative rather than plops in like OT.
You might like to take a look at Dickens, from Pickwick to Dombey and see what Marcus has to say.
I have loved reading all of these interesting posts! Great insights by so many of you. Also, The illustrations and commentaries; excerpts from Dickens's letters, quotes from writers about Dickens (Forster and Chesterton) ... absolutely fascinating. It is adding so much to my enjoyment of PP.And I love the idea of pondering the full title "The Posthumous Papers of the Pickwick Club." I've been thinking about it now too. It SAYS more, as a title, than would have, "The Nimrod Club" or even plainly, "The Pickwick Club" or something else like "The Escapades and Misadventures of the Pickwickians."
That word "posthumous" makes us have to consider something more than just what might be the content of the story, but the fact that someone took the trouble to chronicle these events. And those papers being published after death lends a sense of importance to them, like they're real and not just made up stories.
Or maybe Dickens was just going for a catchy alliteration. :-)
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One has but to open at any page of Pickwick to be struck with a characteristic of social life in Dickens's youth, which implies so much that it may be held to represent the whole civilization in which he was born and bred. Mr. Pickwick and his friends all drank brandy ; drank it as the simplest and handiest refreshment, at home or abroad ; drank it at dawn or at midnight, In the retirement of the bedchamber, or by the genial fireside ; offered it as an invitation to good-fellowship, or as a reward of virtue in inferiors ; and on a coach-journey, whether in summer or winter, held it among indispensable comforts. " He," said Samuel Johnson, " who aspires to be a hero, must drink brandy ; " and in this respect the Pickwickians achieve true heroism. Of course they pay for their glory, being frequently drunk in the most flagrant sense of the word ; but to say that they " come up smiling " after it is to use an inadequate phrase — however appropriate to those times; he would indeed have been a sorry Pickwickian who owned to a morning's headache. If such a thing existed, unavowed, there was the proverbial remedy at hand — "a hair of the dog." It is conceivable that, in some age remote, a student of Pickwick might point, as an obvious explanation of the marvellous flow of vitality and merriment among the people of Dickens's day, to their glorious beverage, something doubtless more ethereal and yet more potent than any drink known among later mortals — the divine liquor called brandy.
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One artist there was, an artist with the brush and an engraver, of whom it may be said that Dickens assuredly learnt, though I cannot see the possibility of comparing their work, of which Forster and others make so much. The genius of Hogarth differed widely from that of the author of Pickwick, but it was inevitable that such profound studies of life and character should attract, even fascinate, a mind absorbed in contemplation of poverty and all its concomitants. Added thereto was the peculiar interest in the artist's name, which resulted to Dickens from his marriage at the age of twenty-four with Miss Hogarth, this lady claiming descent from her great namesake. Both men were strenuous moralists, but it would be hard to show any other point of resemblance in their methods of presenting fact. As to their humor, I am unable to find anything in Hogarth which can for a moment be compared with that quality in Dickens. Hogarth smiles, it is true, but how grimly! There prevails in him an uncompromising spirit of which the novelist had nothing whatever. Try to imagine a volume of fiction produced by the artist of "Gin Lane", of "The Harlot's Progress", and put it beside the books which, from Pickwick onwards, have been the delight of English homes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Harlo...
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Pickwick cannot be classed as a novel; it is merely a great book. Everyone knows that it originated in the suggestion of a publisher that the author of "Sketches by Boz" should write certain facetious drawings; it was to be a joke at the expense of Cockney sportsmen. Dickens obtained permission to write in his own way. Of the original suggestion there remains Mr. Winkle with the gun; for the rest, this bit of hackwork became a good deal more than the writer himself foresaw. Obviously he sat down with only the vaguest scheme; even the personality of his central figure was not clear to him. A pardonable fault, when the circumstances are known, but the same defect appears in all Dickens's earlier books; he only succeeded in correcting it when his imaginative fervour had begun to cool, and in the end he sought by the artifices of an elaborate plot to make up for the decline of qualities greatly more important.
However ill-constructed, Pickwick, I imagine, was never found uninteresting. One may discourse about it in good set terms, pointing out that it belongs to a very old school of narrative, and indicating resemblances with no less a work than "Don Quixote".
Lord Campbell (good luck figuring out who that is) declared that he would rather have written Pickwick than be Chief Justice of England.
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That is exactly what struck me but I don't want to include spoilers. As matters stand, we are not yet two chapters in the book and have seen our heros drunk as lords - but, and this redounds to Mr Pickwick's honour, when he is drunk he is neither a bully nor a sentimental jabberer, but he simply and most benignly falls asleep, and he does not awake with a hangover next morning.
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I think that the later Dickens's prose is much darker and heavier and that his humour tends to become less genial and more bitter instead. Saying that, there is a lot of bitter humour in an early work such as Oliver Twist, and Silas Wegg, with his wild fancy and his roguish recklessness, could also have mingled with the characters we encounter in the Pickwick Papers - but as an overall tendency, his later works grow darker in tone.
Mod
I think it's also the very thing Victorians would have done, running a club for the sake of running a club ;-)
Peter wrote: "John wrote: "In terms of his prose style, is there such thing as Early Dickens and Late Dickens?It is only two chapters in for me, but I noted subjectively that the writing style reminded me a bi..."
Thank you Peter. I'll have to look for that book at alibris.
Tristram wrote: "What do you think of how Dickens manages to give a short characterization of each of the Pickwickians in this second chapter?After our first round through Dickens, especially with his later novels so fresh in mind, how do the first chapters of The Pickwick Papers appeal to you? "
Hello everybody, I arrived late. Thanks to Tristram for the great introduction and to all the Curiosities for all the interesting comments. I don’t think I can add anything new.
The first chapters appeal to me like having a jolly good time with some friends, all together sitting in a pub, and listening to one of us who is telling some stories about the funny awkward adventures of some men he heard of. There is no time for describing the protagonists of the stories in detail. The storyteller tells his story for the sake of a good laugh.
However, here behind the laughs, there is a satire on some kind of “universal” philanthropy or “general” benevolence. The description of the Pickwickian Theory was interesting: one of the leading features of the Pickwickian Theory is “general” benevolence, which means referring the objects of charity to other people for the help they need. Could we say: helping people only in a Pickwickian sense? :)
So the so called Corresponding Society of the Pickwick Club is just a pretext for travelling and have fun. But where the heck do Mr Pickwick and his companions take the money to pay the cab-drivers, the public house, inns, etc.? Are they landowners?
Whatever they are, I’m really enjoying the book so far. Wow!
Hi Milena - nice to meet you!Isn't it a "gentleman's club"? So they would all have inherited money, with no question of making a living, by definition.
Jean wrote: "Hi Milena - nice to meet you!Isn't it a "gentleman's club"? So they would all have inherited money, with no question of making a living, by definition."
Had not considered that, Jean. The Pickwickians are trust fund babies!
Jean wrote: "Hi Milena - nice to meet you!Isn't it a "gentleman's club"? So they would all have inherited money, with no question of making a living, by definition."
Oh, thank you Jean. Anyway, looking at the high intellectual faculties they have showed so far, I don't think they could earn their own fortune by themselves. :)
LOL! Indeed, John and Milena :D
Everyman wrote: "I prefer the more subtle humor of Austen and others of her ilk, the more traditional "English humour" I was brought up with that sneaks up behind you and tickles your funny bone when you are least expecting it...."Generally speaking, I agree. But as far as "English humour" goes, someone once reminded me (and I'll never forgive him) that Benny Hill is English humour, too. At least Dickens hasn't sunk to that level!
~ Cheryl ~ wrote: "I'm reading the black Penguin Classics edition, and my copy has an endnote for that remark at the end of Ch.1 about Mr. Blotton using the word in its "Pickwickian sense." ..."This was helpful, Cheryl - thanks!
Kim wrote: "I wonder what Mr. Reynolds was thinking when he painted eyes?..."I actually have this picture among some of the Dickens Christmas cards I bought a few years back, and wondered the same thing. But on closer inspection, Reynolds just was not very adept at depicting eye glasses. I must admit, I sent very few of that particular card out because I thought Pickwick's eyes might frighten the recipients!
Actually, many years ago, Benny Hill was a perfectly good comedian. As a child I was taken to see variety shows, on the pier in a seaside town, and for several summers, Benny Hill was one of the acts in this family entertainment. I was only tiny, but remember thinking how funny he was. Afterwards I waited to get his (and others') autographs, and my parents always remembered how nice he was to me. He was really good with little kids! A shame what happened to his shows later. I guess that was what was wanted.
My goodness, what a great discussion this has been! My husband looked over at me today and asked what I was grinning about, and it was all the comments in this thread. I told him I've found my tribe. :-) I'm tempted to go back to the "Group-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named" and read everyone's remarks from the first go-round, when some of the more established Curiosities may have had their virgin outing with Mr. Pickwick and his colleagues. But after three pages of new comments here, who has the time?
Jean wrote: "Great bit of detective work Linda!I seem to remember that Dickens got quite a lot of criticism for making mistakes in his first historical novel, Barnaby Rudge, so was extremely care..."
I’ve never actually read Rudge OR Tale of Two Cities, although I have used copies of both somewhere around here—just more evidence that I suffer from the bookstore version of “your eyes were bigger than your stomach....”
Kim wrote: "From Charles Dickens, A Critical Study by George Gissing:One has but to open at any page of Pickwick to be struck with a characteristic of social life in Dickens's youth, which implies so much th..."
What a great extract—am I the only one who gets the urge to mix a drink while reading this book? I feel like I ought to learn how to make a bowl of hot punch! For some reason Dickens enjoys using the adjective “reeking” in the context of hot alcohol...I know the meaning is along the lines of “steaming” (thank you kindle), but I still default to a mental image of stinky, hot booze....
Julie wrote: "Tristram wrote: "I have always thought of Don Quixote as being the first, or at least one of the first novels written (limiting myself to European and American literature, my knowledge..."The 18th century was also when the novel really split into two separate types, that in some ways has continued to this day. The two books that really epitomized these two paths are on the one hand
, which is the external, socially-focused novel...the characters are more excessive, sometimes bordering on parody (along the lines of Chaucer's Wife of Bath) while the plot is more dynamic. It doesn't have to be picaresque, but it often is. Daniel Defoe, Fielding, Smollett, Thackeray, Dickens and Wilkie Collins, Trollope, Balzac, Zola, and, in our own era (according to his own essays) Tom Wolfe...authors along those lines. Then you have the inward-looking novel...the characters are very realistic, often changing as the story proceeds, and there's a great deal of commentary and analysis on how people behave and why. It's harder to move the plot along, because with every step a character takes you have to depict the mental machinery responsible. The progenitor (in English) of this type of novel is generally agreed to be
...These types of novels, Richardson especially, tended to be much more prudish and "moral" than the occasionally lewd goings-on of Tom Jones and Humphrey Clinker, and so they're not as popular today. But some people would place Jane Austen in this category (not sure I do), along with George Eliot, Henry James, George Gissing, Proust, and probably the majority of modern authors of "serious" literature. It's fun to note that Fielding HATED Richardson's brick-sized novels, and parodied his righteous heroine Pamela in the not-too-subtle "Shamela." Samuel Johnson on the other hand thought Richardson far superior...though Johnson could be a bit righteous as well.
Hi Everyone!Sorry this post is coming so late; my schedule this week=blech.
First, thanks for such great posts! The illustrations have been wonderful. Has anyone watched the BBC's Pickwick series? It's worth tracking down a clip or two if only to see and hear how Pickwickian their Mr. Pickwick is!
-Someone pointed out the link between Pickwick and the "Mudfog Papers," a series of dispatches about the goings-on of a vaguely scientific society. Tried reading it; couldn't finish...I think it probably reads better if you're familiar with transcripts of 19th century scientific gentlemen's clubs. Apparently there were quite a lot of Pickwicky clubs in England at this time, and I recall reading that this novel inspired hundreds more to spring up.
-It's hard for us to imagine what a phenomenon this series was in England. The intro made it seem like "The Davinci Code" meets "Star Wars". People stood outside shop windows reading the newest issues and laughing aloud. Copyright laws were verrrry lax, and so there were plays, sheet music, and knockoffs galore. I remember wandering in the graduate library at my university and coming across Pickwick Abroad: Or the Tour in France...somehow I can't imagine it's very good.
-I am somewhat jealous of the lifestyle of the corresponding Pickwick Club members...the club evidently was mixed, socially: Mr. Pickwick is called a humbug (in the Pickwickian sense!) by "a haberdasher"...on the other hand, at least four of its members are quite capable of meandering about England with no cash-related cares. Certainly Goswell Street is not located in the aristocratic parts of London, leaving Pickwick & Co evidently a step or two below the lords and ladies. It's hard to imagine Pickwick, WInkle, Tupman or Snodgrass doing anything for a living, though! Pickwick Papers is, in some ways, a Dickensian "Seinfeld"--a hilarious series of episodes about Nothing. And the more seriously Dickens takes each Nothing, the funnier it gets.
-What does an informer do? I guess it's nothing good, to provoke such a response from Mr. Pickwick's cabbie...
-I'm sure Chesterton made this point, but I love that the first sentence of Dickens' first novel begins with an auctorial variation on "let there be light!" As if with one sentence he conjured up Pickwick and Jingle and Bradley Headstone and Little Nell and Captain Cuttle and Steerforth and Mrs. Gamp--only keeping them off-stage until their book came along.
-Speaking of Jingle, he strikes me as the first real Dickensian character in the novel. Pickwick/Tupman/Winkle/Snodgrass were created as humorous types, rather than real characters--the blustering sportsman, the ridiculous lover, etc. It's fun to watch how, as the novel progresses, Dickens pulls a Pinocchio on them all...he turns them from personalities pulled from the stockroom shelf into one-of-a-kind originals.
-I'd forgotten how bloodthirsty Dickens can be: Jingle's anecdotes pass from a mother getting decapitated to a parody of stagey boo-hoo tragedy. Nothing like a corpse to clog up a fountain...Then again, "Arabian Nights" was one of his favorite books as a child (he also loved the works of Smollett and Fielding, IIRC). I’m not sure when the English stopped executing their felons in public, but certainly within Dickens’ lifetime one might dress in lovely tailored clothes and ride to Tyburn Hill to catch a hanging...
-I've said it before, but Dickens was always much better at reforming through deadpan humor and exaggeration than through pathos...but as Chesterton notes somewhere, as his career proceeded, he much preferred to try and make the reader cry, than laugh, even if the latter is much harder to do. Mr. Pickwick's notes on Rochester paint a nasty portrait of soldiers' behavior...we're just lucky his default mode was humor!
-I agree with everyone who commented on how theatrical Dickens seems, and what a great actor he would have been. He essentially killed himself giving staged readings of his books--he would spend hours before a crowd, essentially putting on a one-man show based on excerpts from various books. I wish someone had tied him in bed, at least until Edwin Drood was done...
-More books ought to be illustrated. I don't know how the idea came to be seen as something that belongs in children's and Young Adult literature, but I'd welcome an illustrator's renaissance! We might not always end up with a fantastic Dickens-Phiz pairing, but I can think of quite a few modern novels that deserve a grand illustrator. Come to think of it, Susanna Clarke's excellent historical fantasy, Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell, did have drawings--very appropriate considering its 1800's setting!
-On to 3 and 4!
Andrew wrote: "Has anyone watched the BBC's Pickwick series? ..."Indeed! I watched it shortly after reading the book last time through, and was impressed at how authentic it was. Noticeable though, was the fact that they missed out all the stories within stories. Whenever a member of the group entertained the others with a rambling tale, this was omitted. Space constraints I suspect.
I have now recorded a very old film, which I think I may have tried once before and given up on. Stick to the BBC is my advice :)
Whatever your political leanings are, I have to suggest picking up
to read alongside
. These two books compliment each other so well. (I think)
Andrew wrote: "am I the only one who gets the urge to mix a drink while reading this book?..."Andrew, me too, and we are not alone. Here's a quote with college students from Montgomery's Anne of the Island, pub 1915:
"What are you reading?"
"Pickwick."
"That's a book that always makes me hungry," said Phil. "There's so much good eating in it. The characters seem always to be reveling on ham and eggs and milk punch. I generally go on a cupboard rummage after reading Pickwick. The mere thought reminds me that I'm starving. Is there any tidbit in the pantry, Queen Anne?"
Mod
thank you for your input on the development of the English novel. I have never seen it that way, but now I understand why I take particular delight in reading Fielding, Smollet, Dickens, Collins and even, sometimes, but not quite so much, Thackeray, whereas I never really liked Richardson or Austen and James. I don't know whether I'd put Eliot in the same category as those boredom-mongers - mark that I use this word in a strictly Pickwickian sense - because a novel like Middlemarch seems to me a social novel, but still, her Daniel Deronda is definitely a psychological novel, and a very good one at that.
Mod
Hello everyone! I’m sorry that I arrived a little late for our pickwickian party. I don’t know what I could add to all that wonderful discussions you brought here…What I want to say is that I read The Posthumous Papers of the Pickwick Club (or, how the Brazilian edition translates the title, something like “The Adventures of Mr. Pickwick”) some years ago, and I have to confess to you that I thought it was quite boring, like Jean said, mainly because it hadn’t a clear plot or structure. Back then, my younger self was all about intricate plots and character developments. Because of that, I think I always underestimated Pickwick. Now that I am a little older and that I learned to enjoy more picaresque stories, I found out that I’m enjoying quite a lot Pickwick so far. To read all your enthusiastic commentaries about it made the first chapters grow in me also. That’s the beauty about book clubs, right?
I really liked all the illustrations Kim provided us. I didn’t know about how Dickens got that job. I loved to read the letters he sent Kate on post 51. It’s so funny to see this not-yet-famous Dickens so excited because he got a job. You can see how enthusiastic he is about Pickwick and how he wants to give his best.
Julie wrote: "Andrew wrote: "am I the only one who gets the urge to mix a drink while reading this book?..."Andrew, me too, and we are not alone. Here's a quote with college students from Montgomery's [book:An..."
Julie, to read you quoting my favorite book series ever (Anne of Green Gables books) made my day. It is quite clear how much Montgomery enjoyed Dickens herself, just seeing the many commentaries about him she made in her works. The quotation you pointed out is very interesting. Let's see if Pickwick makes us hungry too, as it did with Phil.
Débora wrote: "Julie wrote: "Andrew wrote: "am I the only one who gets the urge to mix a drink while reading this book?..."Andrew, me too, and we are not alone. Here's a quote with college students from Montgom..."
They're great books, aren't they? And I find Anne and her scholar-pals are pretty dead-on in their literary assessments.
Hi Débora,Yes, I find I'm now amazed at my younger self! It's good to rethink things sometimes, and certainly we appreciate different aspects at different ages.
I hope you enjoy reading along with the group, sharing everyone's insights and adding your own contributions. I know I do :)
Tristram wrote: "It is also quite strange that none of the Pickwickians realize what a down-on-his-luck fellow Jingle actually is. It is quite clear that he owns no more than what the shirt on his back (plus the one he carries in his pocket, wrapped up in a parcel), and yet he is believed by them when he tells them that his luggage is transported by vessel because it is so bulky."I suppose I must count myself among the Pickwickians in this regard. It didn't occur to me that our stranger did not have actually have a bulky set of luggage in transit!
Kim - thank you for taking the time to find and post all of the illustrations. Some look familiar as they are included in my Penguin edition, but it's great fun to look at the different renditions of Mr Pickwick himself in the rest of the illustrations.
Mod
Thank you Linda, I like doing it even though they are a pain to find at times. :-)
Mod
But then again extremely bulky luggage would also arouse my suspicion - especially violoncello cases ;-)
Mod
It is well known that many of Dickens's novels were published in monthly serial parts. Not so commonly known is that each of these monthly numbers consisted not only of Dickens's words and his illustrator's pictures but also a substantial advertising supplement. In the original serial numbers of The Pickwick Papers, the presence of advertising cannot escape notice. Before reaching the illustrations that precede the novel in each serial part, the Victorian reader would have encountered “The Pickwick Advertiser,” a paratextual supplement that consisted of page upon page of advertisements for all manner of commodities. At the end of the last chapter of the serial number were usually around ten further pages of advertising stitched in before the back cover (which was also filled with publicity material). Almost one third of the material text of Pickwick in parts consisted of advertising material (Hatton and Cleaver xiii).
These are extraordinary! What a find - thanks Kim :)
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Great finds Kim.
Mod
Everyman wrote: "I need that Lambert Snyder Health Vibrator. Where can I get one?"Apparently we all need one, as it cures nearly everything. Except for the "piles and female diseases," but Cora Lambert has those covered, thank God!
Mod
Oh, thank you Kim, that's great stuff! :-D
Mod
http://thequackdoctor.com/index.php/t...
http://thequackdoctor.com/index.php/l...
Coincidentally I've just "read" The Tooth-Ache by George Cruikshank, (yes, that one!) and there are some pretty weird remedies there!
Mod
Actually that still applies with some modern medicines ... but then it's a case of preventing worse symptoms, or even death. I'm just glad I live in the present day where that's concerned!
The Old Curiosity Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Tooth-Ache (other topics)Anne of the Island (other topics)
The Pickwick Papers (other topics)
Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House (other topics)
Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Robert Seymour (other topics)George Cruikshank (other topics)
