Tournament of Books discussion
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Lincoln in the Bardo
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2018 TOB - The Tournament
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Zombies and Final Showdown
Wow Bryn and Bretnie! Thanks for those eloquent thoughts!
Elizabeth wrote: "Damn, Bryn, you're the first person who's actually made me curious about that thing."Excellent, I am so glad to hear that.
The more I think on it, the more I find Amy's description of the fear one feels watching adults in a shark movie to be very apropos -- there was a moment in Fever Dream for me when I suddenly understood what was happening, what the risk was, how it could (perhaps) be avoided -- and seeing it so clearly while the characters still did not made it even more intense to read.
Jason wrote: "Janet wrote: "I can't wait to hear all the wailing when LITB wins it."
I'll be dancing on Fever Dream's grave if it happens."
Jason, Was it you that predicted LitB as the winner at this time last year? I thought you were right then, and I still do now.
I'll be dancing on Fever Dream's grave if it happens."
Jason, Was it you that predicted LitB as the winner at this time last year? I thought you were right then, and I still do now.
Bryn (Plus Others) wrote: " It made me think about many things in a new way -- rural/urban divides, folk religions, how people invent explanations to give them a sense of control over tragedy, the abnegation of agency by people even when that agency is in their self-interest, the way that women in particular are both held responsibility for the safety of children and simultaneously taught to dismiss their fears as meaningless or denigrated for having them... "Bryn, I loved Fever Dream, but your post made me love it even more. Thank you.
I try to focus on the positive, and I (almost) never have a negative word for the judges, even when I disagree. I appreciate that they have given their time and talent to participate in this beautiful tournament. Today, Judge Lapidos tested my resolve. Her reading of Exit West felt dismissive, and her write up is sometimes snarky, which I find disrespectful to Hamid and to all who love his novel.
Yes! I love all the love for Fever Dream. This could be a close final. Or, FD could just stomp right on through like it has all year. I will keep my copy of Lincoln in the Bardo within rescue distance from all those out to kill it.
Jason wrote: "I will keep my copy of Lincoln in the Bardo within rescue distance from all those out to kill it."This made me laugh out loud! (yes, coworkers, the spreadsheet I'm working on is hilarious!)
Echoing Bryn & Bretnie, too - Fever Dream is the only TOB book I chose to re-read. It got at me in that visceral gripping way, but also hasn't let up with the ways it's left me thinking about environmental damage and the magic-thinking of trying to will problems out of existence. And - for those who read My Brilliant Friend, that punch to the solar plexus when he puts his shoes up on the table? I had that same, delicious, horrible, gasping and appalled reaction when Nina sat in the not-dew. I absolutely relish moments like that - an action that seems to be the most everyday and mundane, but because of how the story has led us, is instead has major impact.
Someone created a bracket creator bot on twitter. Tournament of Everything...https://twitter.com/BracketMemeBot
Tina wrote: "Today, Judge Lapidos tested my resolve. Her reading of Exit West felt dismissive, and her write up is sometimes snarky, which I find disrespectful to Hamid and to all who love his novel. i..."It just made me sad. Reading it and the more disparaging comments from the commentariat makes me want to pick it up and pat it on the back and sing it a love song.
Jason wrote: "Someone created a bracket creator bot on twitter. Tournament of Everything...https://twitter.com/BracketMemeBot"
This is so random, bizarre and awesome.
Jason wrote: "Someone created a bracket creator bot on twitter. Tournament of Everything...https://twitter.com/BracketMemeBot"
That's hilarious.
Karin wrote: "I had to pop in here (usually I'm a lurker) to ask what the deal with FD is. I liked it but didn't love it. I thought it was too obscure. I'm also not a parent (not yet, maybe someday?) and the res..."I'm a parent. I didn't get it.
Karin wrote: "I had to pop in here (usually I'm a lurker) to ask what the deal with FD is..."
I'm not a parent, and I did get the rescue distance aspects of Fever Dream. I didn't know what was going on most of the time, but I felt the creepiness, dread, and fear. I didn't enjoy FD, and I see its obscurity as a major flaw, but I both admire and resent how the author stealthily manipulated my emotions.
I'm not a parent, and I did get the rescue distance aspects of Fever Dream. I didn't know what was going on most of the time, but I felt the creepiness, dread, and fear. I didn't enjoy FD, and I see its obscurity as a major flaw, but I both admire and resent how the author stealthily manipulated my emotions.
I’m officially in “don’t care anymore” land. (Probably would have happened for the other Final 4 too, except for Loyola-Chicago....love me a likeable underdog.)I’m now betting (not that I’ve been right much, or at all, really) on a Fever Dream/LitB rematch with LitB winning this time. I’m sad for Exit West and Sing Unburied Sing — I really thought they were the most engaging stories, and while they were creative and mystical, they weren’t so much so that it got in the way of the story.
I don’t re-read books generally, but I feel like I could re-read Fever Dream 5 times and still not see what others saw in it. I’m not a parent, if that’s why, but it’s more that I like my books more literal and topical, and FD just didn’t seem to be about anything for me. The soul switching device, the stream of (barely) consciousness dialogue, I just found it all very off-putting....the opposite of compelling.
While Fever Dream was not literal enough, Pachinko was too literal — it didn’t really read like fiction to me. Whether that was deliberate or Min Jin Lee’s writing style, I’m not sure, but I could never get far enough into it to be excited about the characters, and even when I started to, they would go away. It was just missing a spark for me.
I realize that Fever Dream has a lot of fans here, especially among those who participated in the summer ToB. So it will be interesting to see if lightning can strike twice and it can take down the juggernaut again (if LitB). I think it can take Pachinko.
Jason wrote: "Yes! I love all the love for Fever Dream. This could be a close final. Or, FD could just stomp right on through like it has all year. I will keep my copy of Lincoln in the Bardo within rescue dista..."Oh Jason, LITB has risen from the ashes.
Amy wrote: "Team Fever Dream!to (try to) answer the helicopter parent thing... I think this is just a very visceral representation of sensing danger while feeling helpless to actually do something about it -..."
I just want to say I absolutely love the discussion and thoughtful responses my question yesterday posed. Thank you for your reflection!
Bretnie wrote: "although a matchup against White Tears or The Animators would have had me conflicted"Same here! I think those might be my two faves. I also loved LITB.
Peebee wrote: " I feel like I could re-read Fever Dream 5 times and still not see what others saw in it. "I'm seriously considering re-reading it to see if my feelings have changed after reading the thoughts of readers who enjoyed it both here and at the TOB website.
Amy wrote: "Lincoln in the Bardo (Zombie #2) vs Pachinko: https://themorningnews.org/tob/2018/p..."Well, now you all know the Final Two and I can share that the championship vote was much harder than my judgement round as I didn't like either book :)
Karin wrote: "I had to pop in here (usually I'm a lurker) to ask what the deal with FD is. I liked it but didn't love it. I thought it was too obscure. I'm also not a parent (not yet, maybe someday?) and the res..."Karin - also a long time lurker, but I liked your point. I definitely got a serious helicopter parent vibe from Amanda in this book, and not in a good way. It is one thing to be thinking about rescue distance when your kid is playing in the street or by the sea, but Amanda was constantly obsessing about it - even when her child was in the same house upstairs, etc. She was clearly obsessing in an unhealthy way, and I tried to find a connection between that and "the important thing", but ultimately couldn't come up with anything.
I found Fever Dream to be compelling, but ultimately lacking. It had a "Lost" (or "Annihilation") type issue for me - I needed to find a logical underpinning, and it just wasn't there. In genre terms, a fantastical underpinning is fine if it is consistent and supported in the narrative. Making stuff up as you go X-files style just doesn't work for me.
Lauren wrote: "Amy wrote: "Lincoln in the Bardo (Zombie #2) vs Pachinko: https://themorningnews.org/tob/2018/p..."Well, now you all know the Final Two and I can share that the cha..."
Oh, that's a tough one. I know you have to be careful what you say but how do they do the championship vote? Is it secret ballot or do you already know who won?
There is no way Fever Dream can ever be as good after you're read a few reviews, as it would be if you'd never read a peep of a review about it. Its power is the way it plunges you into confusion and dread and if you know it's 'coming, well.I'm getting energized to read Lincoln, though, now that I've read today's judgment. It sounds wild and new. In this case I've been a little slow not just because of bardo fatigue but also because of the many works that have tried to capture Lincoln and have been defeated by his mythology.
Peebee wrote: "I’m officially in “don’t care anymore” land. (Probably would have happened for the other Final 4 too, except for Loyola-Chicago....love me a likeable underdog.)I’m now betting (not that I’ve been..."
I had some of the same issues with LitB as you did (from reading your comments on ToB site) but I did like it more than FD (which I thought was great but I liked LitB more-that and Exit West were two of my top 2017 reads)) so I'm hoping it wins. I do like the fact that it came back from the dead to be in the finals. Very fitting for that book, I think :) And Go Ramblers!
Sunita wrote: "And this is where I remind myself that I follow the TOB obsessively to find wonderful new books and read interesting discussions, not to see one of my preferred books win a prize."Thank you for the reminder. I definitely get way too wound up around my preferred books. It's all part of the fun and what makes it worth talking about year round, but it sure makes me feel like I've turned the ToB lesson that book awards are subjective and ridiculous into some referendum on my taste.
(Look at me, all making nice now that LitB made the finals. So predictable)
Eric wrote: "Karin wrote: "I had to pop in here (usually I'm a lurker) to ask what the deal with FD is. I liked it but didn't love it. I thought it was too obscure. I'm also not a parent (not yet, maybe someday..."Here's how I viewed the RD concept from FD-and this is a parent perspective (but I can also see utilizing it from a non-parent perspective about something/someone else you feel deeply about/are deeply connected to). Years before I had a child I read a quote that having a child is like watching your heart walk around outside your body. I didn't get it and frankly thought it was the dumbest thing I ever heard. Then I had a kid and had an epiphany about that quote-I totally got it. My kids are teens now and often outside of a physical RD but that feeling is still there for me. Interestingly though, that wasn't what resonated so much for me with FD. I was more taken with the soul switching bit, which had shades of The Transmigration of Bodies for me (also translated from Spanish but by a Mexican author Yuri Herrera) another book I really loved. I also think the fact that I read FD in one sitting made it a much more effective read for me than it would have been if I read it in fits and starts.
Sunita wrote: "And this is where I remind myself that I follow the TOB obsessively to find wonderful new books and read interesting discussions, not to see one of my preferred books win a prize. Because man, this..."
Me too, Sunita. I'm thankful today for itsonlyzach, whose witty comments remind me what this crazy tournament is about and make me laugh at myself for taking it all so seriously.
Me too, Sunita. I'm thankful today for itsonlyzach, whose witty comments remind me what this crazy tournament is about and make me laugh at myself for taking it all so seriously.
Janet wrote: "Lauren wrote: "Amy wrote: "Lincoln in the Bardo (Zombie #2) vs Pachinko: https://themorningnews.org/tob/2018/p..."Well, now you all know the Final Two and I can sha..."
We are kept totally in the dark about anything that doesn’t have to do with our own judgements! So, I know how I voted but no idea about the other 16 judges. It will be a surprise for me as well.
I've learned over the years to NOT try to guess from the longlist and to just keep on with my own reading -- which may or may not include some of those titles -- until the shortlist comes out. I am always wrong, and I waste reading time with books that people seem sure will be on the shortlist -- or I think will be, although that's rarer -- when I could be reading books I actually, you know, choose.
Eric wrote: " definitely got a serious helicopter parent vibe from Amanda in this book, and not in a good way. It is one thing to be thinking about rescue distance when your kid is playing in the street or by the sea, but Amanda was constantly obsessing about it - even when her child was in the same house upstairs, etc. She was clearly obsessing in an unhealthy way, and I tried to find a connection between that and "the important thing", but ultimately couldn't come up with anything."I read it so differently! I didn't think she was helicoptering at all (and I think this discussion has reframed 'helicopter parenting' from 'parents who track their kids on their cell phones and go talk to the principal every time there's a schoolyard conflict' as I normally see it defined, to more like 'hovering when a school-age kid is going to climb a slide in case she falls' which is more about physical safety - if overanxious about that - than about attempting to manage a child's social/educational success.)
Nina was 6 or 8, right? And they were at a strange house. Amanda went around in her first day checking that there weren't physical dangers for her - that she couldn't lock herself in her room or fall out a window or get splinters from running barefoot. She talked to her about safety around the pool. But she also trusted her to go run in circles around the house a few times each lunchtime, and smiled at how Nina buckled herself and her mole into the car each time she entered it, which I read as pride that her daughter had learned to navigate her world safely and that Amanda could relax about some things - like walking down the road if Nina napped, knowing that if she woke up, she wouldn't go running off. Or letting her rummage around the kitchen while she and Carla sat in the car.
These are all things that made a lot of sense to me. Bringing your kid to a new place, knowing she will want some freedom of movement and calculating 'I've checked the obvious hazards, and now I can leave her unsupervised for X amount of time or while she is in Y distance of me.'
But in the opening of the book, when Amanda didn't yet remember that Nina was endangered - or even understand that she was, herself - she was just telling David the story of sitting around talking to Carla, and mentioning the ways, in passing, she'd increased the rescue distance since their initial arrival at the house.
It wasn't until she had the distressing dream, towards the end of her story, where Nina was sitting at the table with strange foods and talking in a strange (/David) voice, that she got freaked out and she tried to reel in the rescue distance.
She packed up her stuff and got them ready to go, and by the time it was morning and she was packing Nina's room, the dread of what was looming wouldn't allow her to get far from her daughter. And yet, she still let her sit outside (in the not-dew) while the men unloaded the trucks, and when they went to Carla's land with her, she let Nina play around the field, calling down into the old well. She wasn't hovering; she'd determined that Nina's physical safety wasn't a worry and left her the agency to play as she wanted.
Of course, by then it was too late - not because she was going to fall down a well but because she'd sat in grass wet from when a vat fell off the truck and spilled contaminated water. That was the really insidious thing - in a moment when Amanda didn't "need" to reduce the rescue distance at all, unseen, invisible harm reached out from the earth and attacked them both, and there was nothing she could do to save her.
I relished it. Obviously.
Sunita wrote: " I've learned over the years that most of my preferred longlist books aren't going to make it and if my shortlist books go far and/or win, it's a bonus. Because the TOB folks' sensibilities and mine overlap most at the longlist stage."Ditto. I rarely agree with any ruling during the TOB. I find the award listing that aligns best with my reading tastes is the NBA longlists for fiction/nonfiction.
That said I'm glad I started chatting in here, I find this discussion to be more entertaining/thought provoking than the actual TOB :)
Melanie wrote: "unseen, invisible harm reached out from the earth and attacked them both, and there was nothing she could do to save her. "Thanks for the vivid reminder, I was only just starting to sleep with the lights off again!!!!
Melanie wrote: "It wasn't until she had the distressing dream, towards the end of her story, where Nina was sitting at the table with strange foods and talking in a strange (/David) voice, that she got freaked out and she tried to reel in the rescue distance.."I had forgotten about that scene - she wasn't the only one freaked out!
Melanie wrote: "Eric wrote: " definitely got a serious helicopter parent vibe from Amanda in this book, and not in a good way. It is one thing to be thinking about rescue distance when your kid is playing in the s..."So much of how one relates to a story has to do with one's own life experiences and opinions and reading the commentary on this one book in particular has shown me that my own serious issues/concerns with becoming a parent someday are playing out in my perception of the story as compared with others!
Melanie wrote: "Eric wrote: " definitely got a serious helicopter parent vibe from Amanda in this book, and not in a good way. It is one thing to be thinking about rescue distance when your kid is playing in the s..."Wow - thank you Melanie. Great perspective and examples.
I definitely read Amanda differently - I viewed her in the "hovering" sense - that Amanda was preoccupied with Nina's physical safety.
That's literally what I took "rescue distance" to mean - at any moment, what would it take for Amanda to rescue Nina.
I felt she was obsessive compared to my own parenting style.
With my own 2 kids. when they were 6-8 I knew from experience they buckled up in the car in every single time, so I didn't consciously check or ask. When we went on vacation, we got to the cabin or camp site, mentioned a few ground rules and then they run off and explore. I took the "check for splinters" comment as the author explicitly calling out Amanda's obsessiveness.
A big theme I observed was how Amanda obsessed over every possible danger to Nina and was constantly focused on the rescue distance, and then Nina just sits in the "not dew". She missed the "important thing". I took that as an authorial message about her obsessiveness - we can't protect our kids from everything, and by trying to focus on everything, we miss the important thing.
It's been too long since I read Fever Dream to remember specifics, but one interpretation that I considered was that both Carla and Amanda were obsessive parents, and what they saw as mystical transplants were actually David and Nina gaining a measure of independence and being able to become their own persons. Kind of like how in real life, one's kids become their own persons as they grow out from under us - they like different foods than their parents, try different hobbies/sports, dress differently, like different music. And in many cases, outright reject the things the parents loved and wanted to share/bond with them over. In this interpretation, David's "important thing" was that he was who he always was, and so was Nina.
Eric wrote: "what they saw as mystical transplants were actually David and Nina gaining a measure of independence and being able to become their own persons. Kind of like how in real life, one's kids become their own persons as they grow out from under us..."Oh that's SO COOL a read! It's interesting, viewing it in that light - my thesis above is clear I didn't get that myself, but it's a fun aspect of parenting to explore. As a parent, I love that stuff, the ways their independence and personalities grow and evolve and are so different from any kind of 'mini-me' clone child stuff. Even the differences in the ways they're similar (husband & I are both novelists; college kid has just emailed a story he's written for his first creative writing class. His brand of humor differs so so much from either of ours.)
While my read is still on the 'not really all that obsessive, if sometimes a little hover-y' spectrum, it's intriguing to think about how an obsessive parent could Munchausens-by-proxy an environmental threat to explicate a kid who spent a lot of time burying dead ducks, etc.
Honestly I think this year's judgments were consistently stellar, the best and most consistent year ever. The judges gave each book a great, honest reading, and they had a lot of thoughtfulness about what each author set out to do, as well as acknowledging their own reading preferences and how these preferences came into play. Wonderful.
I agree about the strength of the judgments this year, Lark. I also want to give credit to the editors who encourage the judges to write their best possible judgments.
Only two more years and we'll have 16 winners to do a Tournament of Roosters.
Jason wrote: "Only two more years and we'll have 16 winners to do a Tournament of Roosters."YEAH!
Lark wrote: "Honestly I think this year's judgments were consistently stellar, the best and most consistent year ever. The judges gave each book a great, honest reading, and they had a lot of thoughtfulness abo..."Except for Stephen Florida! I still can't believe the judge actually read the book......
Jason wrote: "Only two more years and we'll have 16 winners to do a Tournament of Roosters."This is a fantastic idea.
Jason wrote: "Only two more years and we'll have 16 winners to do a Tournament of Roosters."Oooh, I would be SO down for that!
Okay, so I finally read Fever Dream yesterday...I was sure I wouldn't like it, but everyone's comments intrigued me and I figured I might as well have a clear opinion about the final judgement.I finished reading in the middle of the night, and I did understand what creeped people out about it, I felt decidedly unsettled last night. My daughter is probably close to Nina's age (just turned 8) and I kept thinking about the bullets that had been found recently at her school, in the hallway and the playground, and about pesticides, specifically chlorpyrifos...There was much written last year about the EPA backing off on a decision to ban it, what it can do to children, and...that it's the main pesticide used on broccoli...
I'm definitely a helicopter parent, so feed organic except for the clean 15...one of which is broccoli. And we eat broccoli three or four times a week, ever since my daughter was a baby she's loved it and I gave it to her almost daily for dinner when she was tiny to, you know, keep her healthy. Chlorpyrifos can cause neurological damage. And my daughter has ADHD.
All that to say, the book creeped me out on a deep level last night. Made me think, what ELSE am I doing with and for my daughter that in the end might bring that unavoidable danger? (Because as Amanda's grandmother tells her mother, sooner or later something terrible WILL happen.) And reading the comments from the summer challenge in this group, thinking of where this book is coming from (response to the pesticide used in soy fields in Argentina) made me appreciate it even more.
So I got the chill, and I appreciated the subtle touches the author used to unsettle the reader more and more as the story went on, without fully explaining whether THESE were the things we should be creeped out about (for example, Nina using the word "we" when talking about herself), the way she was able to make the whole story feel so hazy, even the un-realness of Nina in general, she felt like a shell of a child, I don't think we ever heard any direct dialogue from her...There was a lot of skill there.
But in the end, I gave it a 3-star rating, because I wanted a little more visceral fear from Amanda, a little more understanding of their relationship, a little more understanding of character, even though I know that would take away from the dreamy feeling and that the quietness and character vagueness was purposeful. So I ended up appreciating the book more than being swept away by it. I realize (as with Pachinko, actually) that this is more about what I look for in a book than about the book itself.
And if I had to vote today, I probably would choose this book. I'm not sorry I finally read it.
Aaaand...that comment was a lot longer than I thought it would be, lol.
i'm incessantly clicking refresh :p
The suspense is killing me!
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Tournament of Books
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Exit West (other topics)Happiness (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Aminatta Forna (other topics)Yuri Herrera (other topics)
Jo, I'd be surprised if you don't like it.
> it had enough bardo-talk in it to use up all my interest
The bardo or at least liminal states seem to be a literary thing in 2017 -- you could make an argument for Sing, Unburied, Sing and White Tears being bardo books as well. I spent much of my fall listening to Moore's Jerusalem, all 60 hours of it, and much of it circles around a version of the bardo, and yet I still liked LiTB. In fact, I think I liked it more because I'd read Jerusalem.