Kushiel's Dart

[Lisa]

Laura and myself are going to be reading Kushiel's Dart by Jacqueline Carey together in January. The start date is January 1st. All are welcome to join in.

[Laura]

I'll be eagerly waiting for this. :)

[Lisa]

Laura wrote: "I'll be eagerly waiting for this. :)"

Me too :) I reckon it will be a good book to discuss.

[Janice, Moderator]

I think there is a lot in the book to discuss. I read it some time ago. One of these days I'd like to get the next book in the series.

[Laura]

I've heard only good things about it.

[Lisa]

Janice wrote: "I think there is a lot in the book to discuss. I read it some time ago. One of these days I'd like to get the next book in the series."

That's good to hear, Janice.

[Lisa]

Laura wrote: "I've heard only good things about it."

I've heard mostly positive things about it. I have come across the occasional negative comment, but the good comments far outweigh the bad ones.

[Laura]

How do you want to read it Lisa? Do you want to speed through it or read it slow? It's our first BR together so I'd like to know what pace you're comfy with. 😊

[Lisa]

I'm quite a slow reader so it will probably take me a while to get through it. However, don't feel you need to match my pace, Laura. Just read it as quickly or as slowly as you like and if you want to make any comments, just make sure you put a spoiler in where necessary and then I can read them and reply to them as and when I get to them 🙂

[Laura]

ok Lisa. I'll do that. 😊

@Janice - was this a 5 star read for you?

[Janice, Moderator]

No, I gave it 3 stars. I'm not sure why since I didn't write much of a review. I read it in 2014. I remember some scenes vividly so it obviously had an impact. There are books I've read months ago and can't remember a thing.

[Laura]

I'm starting today. :)

[Lisa]

I started yesterday and am up to Chapter 6 (page 50). I think it's a book I will enjoy, I like the world building so far (although there are a lot of names being introduced) and I am enjoying learning about Phèdre's background. I think the writing style is quite good, although there are occasions where I feel like Jacqueline Carey went through a thesaurus and plucked out the fanciest sounding words she found.

(view spoiler)[I loved the Midwinter Masque. The descriptions of the costumes, food etc were so lush that I felt as though I were right there in the middle of it. I'm also very curious about Anafiel Delaunay. He is very watchful and mysterious so I'm wondering what it is he does. Maybe he is a spy for the Royal Court? The foreshadowing of the downfall of Prince Baudon was also very intriguing. It sounds like he will be betrayed by somone very close to him so it will be interesting to find out who it is. (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[Who is Melisandre? She has been mentioned several times already in the opening few chapters so I'm guessing she will have a large/important role somewhere down the line. (hide spoiler)]

[Laura]

I also reached chapter 6 (a different page number in my paperback)

I love the book already. And find the writing style lovely though a bit heavy at times. It doesn't bother me because I have been reading a lot of "old school" fantasy lately. Kay or Bujold are nothing less. (I have to have a dictionary at hand once in a while with them also.) :D
Just like you, I loved learning about Phèdre's background. The book caught me from the very first chapter because of that.

The Midwinter Masque was great also but I didn't quite get (view spoiler)[who Melisande is either. I got it that Phedre will be there to witness the luck of the prince turn so I suspect she'll move in high circles later.

Anafiel Delaunay must be already in the centre of politics and I think he will train Phedre as a sort of spy/tool. What I'm not sure is whether he is good or bad.

And I wonder what Kushiel's Dart means. Does that mark mean that the girl is sort of a born submissive with a penchant of getting pleasure out of pain? Or is it something much more? (hide spoiler)]

I'm getting a bit confused at times with the names and find myself leafing back through the pages to see who was where. Hope that will settle after a few more chapters.

[Lisa]

Laura wrote: "I also reached chapter 6 (a different page number in my paperback)

I love the book already. And find the writing style lovely though a bit heavy at times. It doesn't bother me because I have been ..."

I have also been wondering what (view spoiler)[Kushiel's Dart means. At the moment, I'm thinking along the same lines as you about it meaning that the girl is born submissive and enjoys pain but seeing as this is a fantasy novel, I expect it will turn out to be far more complex than that. (hide spoiler)]

I'm also getting a bit confused about all the characters, although the character list at the beginning is helping with that. Did your copy also have a list of characters? I expect it will settle down, once we become more familiar with the world, customs, etc.

[Laura]

I also tend towards the more complex. :)

My copy also has the list of people and places, dramatis personae and nice maps. It's a huge book. And I have totally forgotten about it. :D I was leafing back through the pages instead of looking at those lists.
I normally have a problem with names in all complex fantasy worlds in the beginning, until I settle properly into the book.

[Janice, Moderator]

I listened to the audiobook so didn't have the benefit of a list of characters or maps. That would have been helpful.

Re: Kushiel's dart - (view spoiler)[ I think it designated her discipline as a religious courtesan. I recall that the tattooist disliked doing the dart on submissives because they enjoyed it too much. The design may have included the fact that she was a submissive, but I don't recall. (hide spoiler)]

[Laura]

I have just finished Chapter 28 and I love Joscelin. His dilema (view spoiler)[ of being a Cassiline Brother and protecting an anguissette.... The way he gets shocked at what he sees and his interaction with Phedre are priceless. (hide spoiler)] I do hope he'll stick around for the rest of the book and even the whole trilogy. :)

@Janice - regarding Kushiel's Dart and the design on the back (view spoiler)[ it is not the dart on her back but simply an artistic design to represent what each courtesan does. Phedre's was created by the artist to incorporate the briar rose and thorns symbolic for Kushiel (pleasure and pain). From what I understood after reading till now, to be marked by Kushiel's Dart means to be a bit more than submissive. It means to crave pain and only be able to get real pleasure from it, something closer to masochism if I got it right. Melisande's house is filled with only submissives but none of them seem to be like Phedre, which makes me thinks she is a bit more than a simple submissive. Phedre literally craves pain. At least that's how I understood it. That's why she enjoys even the tatoo. I am not very familliar with the term of masochism and what I know is only based on stuff heard from others. Would I be right in this? Would it qualify?

And I don't get what that red haze is that comes over her at times. She seems to see Kushiel's face and everything becomes red. Maybe there is something more than just the obvious pleasure/pain? (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Laura re: Kushiel's Dart (view spoiler)[ Oops, my mistake. Isn't Kushiel's dart the mote in her eye that she was born with? I was wrong to call the tattoo the dart. I was referring to the tattoo. And masochistic is an apt term to apply to Phedre. (hide spoiler)]

[Lisa]

Janice wrote: "Laura re: Kushiel's Dart [spoilers removed]"

Janice, yes the (view spoiler)[mark of Kushiel is the red mote in her eye. (hide spoiler)]

[Laura]

Thank you Janice. I wasn't really sure if that term fits. This is the first book I'm reading with this type of a character.

And how do you like it Lisa? At what chapter are you now?

[Lisa]

Laura wrote: "Thank you Janice. I wasn't really sure if that term fits. This is the first book I'm reading with this type of a character.

And how do you like it Lisa? At what chapter are you now?"

I'm at Chapter 13. I really like it so far. I'm enjoying how the political situation is unfolding and it's really interesting seeing Phèdre develop and change as she grows up. Delaunay' training is beginning to work wonders. Talking of Delaunay, what a fascinating character he is turning into. He appears to have lots of depth and mystery about him which is something I always enjoy in a character. (view spoiler)[Is he in love with Alcuin? It certainly seems that way to me as he appeared quite subdued when the guests at Cecilie's party were bidding for Alcuin's virgin price. I think there is definitely more going on between them than first meets the eye. (hide spoiler)]

I'm guessing that Melisande will go on to become (view spoiler)[an enemy of sorts to Phèdre. However, it seems to be hinting that there will be an attraction between them as well. It will be interesting to see how that all plays out if true. (hide spoiler)]

[Laura]

I was having the same thoughts at that time Lisa, though I have to say I don't love Delaunay that much. He is a very complex character but I like Alcuin and Hyacinte more.

I have read quite a bit more of it and will probably finish it by tomorrow night. After the quarter mark it became un-put-downable! It made me burst out laughing at times and feel like crying at others. I'll wait for you to post your thoughts as you go on and reply to those as I don't want to risk spoiling something for you. Hope you like it just as much as I do. :)

[Lisa]

Wow, you have flown through it, Laura! I'm glad you're enjoying it.

[Laura]

I really love it Lisa. How about you? At what chapter are you now and how do you like it?

[Lisa]

Laura wrote: "I really love it Lisa. How about you? At what chapter are you now and how do you like it?"

I'm still at Chapter 13 because I haven't been able to get any reading done yet today 😜 I will read a bit more later though. I really like it so far. I wouldn't say I love it yet but that could change as I get further through.

[Lisa]

Okay, Laura, I have read some more and up to Chapter 19. I really love the world this is set in, it feels like a mixture of Ancient Rome and Medieval France. Jacqueline Carey is doing such a great job of bringing it all to life, even though I am still getting a bit confused by who is who and who is working with who, etc. There is so much political stuff intrigue going on, it's like Game of Thrones all over again. I am also really starting to like Phèdre as a character. I wasn't sure about her to begin with but she is growing on me so much. I love how smart and tough she is. It also made me smile when she chose (view spoiler)[Hyacinthe as her safeword. There is a part of me that hopes she will become romantically involved with him, but as bet she won't. (hide spoiler)]

I am now thinking (view spoiler)[Delaunay is not in love with Alcuin because he seemed to show the same sort of discomfort when Phèdre went off to her first client. I now think he loves both of them but in a fatherly sort of way rather than in a romantic way. (hide spoiler)]

[Laura]

I was having exactly the same thoughts at that time Lisa. :) The who is who is getting a bit clearer as you go on. Though even at the end I had to look at the lists and check which noble was from where in a few cases. And I have the same impression regarding the politics: Game of Thrones all over again.

I finished it yesterday night and rated it a 5 star. I cannot say how much I loved it and hope you will too. I'm planning to read the rest of the series as soon as I'm done with my compulsory BRs for this month and if the other 2 books are the same this series will get a place in my top 5 favourites.

Did you get to read some more of it also?

[Lisa]

I'm really pleased you loved it, Laura. It's always nice to kick off the year with a 5 star read. If I had to rate it based on what I've read so far, I would give it a solid 4 stars. It's not into 5 star territory yet for me, but it may well get there in the end.

I have read a bit more. I'm flitting between this and another book (which I'm also really enjoying) so my progress with this is very slow. I'm up to Chapter 22 now. I don't have too many new thoughts or questions, other than what Melisande's game is? I'm also finding it quite hard to believe that (view spoiler)[she and Delaunay were once lovers. I can't imagine him going for a woman like her. Unless he is lying about their history? (hide spoiler)] I was also surprised to learn that (view spoiler)[Alcuin doesn't enjoy serving patrons. I guess the signs were there, he always seems reluctant before heading off with a patron, but I'm wondering why he doesn't just admit to Delaunay how he feels about it? Unless he just views it as a necessary evil to tolerate in order to get the information Delaunay wants and needs? (hide spoiler)]

[Laura]

Lisa wrote: "I'm really pleased you loved it, Laura. It's always nice to kick off the year with a 5 star read. If I had to rate it based on what I've read so far, I would give it a solid 4 stars. It's not into ..."

I think Alcuin wants to (view spoiler)[ please Delaunay above all else. That was my impression from the very first time I met him. That's why he does it. Why he wants to please him so badly was my question. Did he feel so indebted because Delaunay took him in and raised him? (hide spoiler)]
And I do find it difficult to believe that also - about Melisande. Her game didn't really become clear for me till the very end.