World, Writing, Wealth discussion
Wealth & Economics
>
Who's working harder?
date
newest »
newest »
Papaphilly wrote: "Ian wrote: "I don't follow this argument. I say yes to the first and no to the second, and I feel they are the sensible answers...."You are making my point for me. You work hard on your book and ..."
No, I did not file for bankruptcy. The good news is I did not have to pay tax for many years - legally of course - because I could carry over the tax losses. It was a particularly unpleasant time, especially for family. I suppose it depends on what you mean by "hard work" - I think, in retrospect, it was less hard (marginally) than what was happening prior to the cause of the difficulty, but yes, I worked it off and eventually got myself to where I am now.
I agree you can't make headway without hard work, but my point is the return you get depends on a lot more than how hard you work. Of course, if you do not work hard, you are not going to get anywhere near adequate. In part, it is what you do, not how long you do it, but I still think you need some luck, or at least an absence of bad luck at the critical time.
Ian made my point better, and which I think should be restated."The point I am making is hard work alone won't make you rich. Talent alone won't make you rich, and I rather think, but cannot prove, that an absence of good fortune or a run of bad luck at the wrong time will ensure you do not get rich."
My father worked hard every day for long hours. Yes, he moved up in the company and was able to go from living hand to mouth to enjoying the 8 years of retirement he had before he died at age 73, but never was wealthy. I think that answers the question of why many people come here - it's not the dream of being rich, it's the dream of a roof over your head and food on the table without the fear of the newest regime walking in and shooting you at the dinner table after raping your children.
In part, the answer depends on what you mean by "rich". I have used the words "adequate wealth", which seems to describe Lizzie's father, and for that matter, me. I have perhaps modest desires but I can go and buy what I want without thinking about whether I can afford it. Equally, I know there are many things out of my league, but I don't need them. That suits me. To quote Bach, "Ich habe genug". At least for me.And Lizzie is also correct. It is great to live in a country where there is law and order, and while there is crime here, by and large you can wander around without looking over your shoulder.
I think we are all on the same page. I do not begrudge anyone their money, even those that inherit it or have their way paved for them. I usually only get torqued up when someone starts on third base and thinks they hit a home run. Or they come from money and think they understand how the other half lives. They start to pontificate and then you find out how things were snow plowed for them. My wife went to a very high end University for her Master's and she had to both borrow and work to make ends meet. Most of her friends were trust fund babies and had no clue. they could not understand why she could not go to the Alps for long weekends. Yet, they also felt the poor did not deserve help at all.Ian, I love that quote, because it says it all. I think I get fired up when I read someone saying life is not fair. Guess what, it is not.
You guys have compelling stories about your own and your families' hard work to get you where you are. I also worked hard to get where I am: earned two degrees and taught English for 30 years, raised a child on my own.But when I look at the title of this post, there's not really an answer to the question "Who's working harder?" I don't think I worked harder than a field laborer, a homemaker, the head of a corporation. There's no way to quantify who's working harder. There's just the fact that we all work hard at whatever we do. That excludes, of course, those who have had a free ride.
I saw the question as who has energy at the end of the day. The working poor work all day and still have no extra money for pleasure. It is the week to week and hand to mouth pay check that makes me say the bottom work the hardest. I do agree that hard work is a relative term.
The question is vague. Harder than whom? What are we comparing? It's impossible to know.
I think its not working harder as much as how you are compensated for the amount of education you had to have and the amount of work you do.For example - I know two people. A doctor who is a neighbor and a HS teacher in a "good" district who is a relative of a friend. Add the plumbing contractor who worked for me for 16 years.
The doctor did 4 yrs of college, 4 yrs of medical school, then an internship, residence, fellowship so he was about 32 before he started earning a high salary. (He got a salary for the post med school work, maybe low 5 figures.) He is also expected to attend continuing education periodically. Right now, he works 6 days a week - 5 are 12 hr days when he is in the hospital and office, the other he works from home but has to do mandatory electronic charts and test reviews. He gets 3 weeks vacation time a year, is not off on Monday holidays and has to take a share of on-call holidays (Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Years, etc) and his health insurance is paid by his employer (medical conglomerate.) I don't know his exact salary but I heard it was now up to the low six figures, probably under 250,000. He is in his early 60s and doesn't see himself retiring for another 5-10 years.
The teacher went to college for 4 years, and 2 years of grad school so she was around 26 when she started teaching. She has to attend some continuing education from time to time. Her work day is from 8 AM to 2:45 and on the days that they have a "half day" - dismissal at noon or 1 PM - that counts as a full day. On some days she has to bring work home and work for a few hours. The school year is 181 days, and teachers have additional in school work a week in fall and at the end of the school year. She gets all Monday holidays off. Her benefits include health care, sick leave, maternity leave, pension and some funding for continuing education. At this point in her career (she is in her early 50s) her salary is (I am told) 105,000 and she apparently plans to retire some time in the next year or two, which means at around 55, she will start collecting a lifetime pension.
The plumbing contractor finished HS, went to a trade school, apprenticed for a few years, worked for someone else and then started his own business in his late 20s. He works at least 12 hrs a day, and often gets called out for emergencies even on holidays - there are no Monday holidays for him. He has to pay for his own benefits and those of his 2 employees. He has about an hour of paperwork for every working day. He makes just over 100,000 a year is in his late 50s and doesn't know when he'll retire, will retire on a small pension and whatever social security he gets.
I know not all doctors, teachers and plumbing contractors make the same, these are just local examples - a lot depends on where you live, competition in the work force, etc.
So which one is the hardest worker, which one is getting the best deal on income in relation to the work they do?
I don't know what it is like in the US, but here the plumber, when he wanted to retire, would sell the business he built and make quite a bit from the goodwill that goes with it.As for who is getting the best deal, I would suggest each s doing what they felt happy doing when they started. We all have different goals when we start.
I agree. If we're such a terrible country, why do people from all over the world want to come here? My fear is that our country is being destroyed from within by a government that gives people something for nothing and subverts the work ethic that created this country.