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Intersectional Feminism > Different genders, different pronouns - it's not new:)

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message 1: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments I was listening to this radio show the day before yesterday:
https://soundcloud.com/native-america...

Listen to it - it will teach you a lot.

So many say that there is only male and female, man and woman. Well, not true. Native Americans and First Nations know this since time immemorial.

Also, I wanna share this thread with you:
https://twitter.com/apihtawikosisan/s...


message 2: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
MeerderWörter wrote: "I was listening to this radio show the day before yesterday:
https://soundcloud.com/native-america...

Listen to it - it will teach you a lot.

So many say..."


Would love to find a transcription of the audio! My laptop doesn't really have a great audio and my brain seems to be on one of those days when even English will get tricky. O//O

Also, that thread. What I love most about bigots is that so very few of them will really give you a run for your intellectual money. They're so easy to debunk.


message 3: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Ana wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "I was listening to this radio show the day before yesterday:
https://soundcloud.com/native-america...

Listen to it - it will teach y..."


:)

I don't think there is a transcription available... and I really don't have the time right now to transcribe it, sorry...

And yes, apihtawikosisan rocks, she's very good in teaching others:)


message 4: by Ross (new)

Ross | 1444 comments language is the key the science of sociolinguistics shows the power of how we address each other and the connotations gender terms have in our cultures


message 5: by [deleted user] (new)

Ross wrote: "language is the key the science of sociolinguistics shows the power of how we address each other and the connotations gender terms have in our cultures"

I agree, it depends on the culture. To what a friend told me, in his country (Indonesia) there is no he/she, everyone is neutral, he also told me than it is not rare to ask more information about the gender in a discussion.


message 6: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
Florian wrote: "To what a friend told me, in his country (Indonesia) there is no he/she, everyone is neutral, he also told me than it is not rare to ask more information about the gender in a discussion."

Oh! Surprised to hear that, since according to Wikipedia...

Islam is the most adhered religion in Indonesia, with 87.2% of Indonesian population identifying themselves as Muslim in 2010 estimate.

Cool to know, however. :)

Ah, don't worry, Meerder. I'll just have to try again! :) You know those days when you can barely muster your own mother tongue? Apparently I was going through one. :)


message 7: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Florian wrote: "Ross wrote: "language is the key the science of sociolinguistics shows the power of how we address each other and the connotations gender terms have in our cultures"

I agree, it depends on the cul..."


Good to know. I wish, for example, that we would always introduce ourselves with out personal gender pronouns...

@Ana: I do know these days... German is tricky at times.


message 8: by [deleted user] (new)

Totally agree with you Meerder.

I'm for a neutral gender pronoun too.

In addition, it should makes some languages more easy to learn like French (my mother tongue) where a lot of nouns have a gender's marker, for example a car "une voiture" is feminine and a truck "un camion" is masculine...


message 9: by MeerderWörter (last edited Dec 30, 2017 03:48PM) (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Lewis wrote: "Totally agree with you Meerder.

I'm for a neutral gender pronoun too.

In addition, it should makes some languages more easy to learn like French (my mother tongue) where a lot of nouns have a gen..."


Same in German - and there is no REAL logic behind it which article to use (the der, die, das issue) for a specific word. Some makes sense, some not at all, and most is just out of the blue.



Especially considering that it's not even as easy as male and female biologically, we really need more gender identifications. English is slowly catching up on this, but German for example (it's my first language, so the language I can reference the easiest) not at all.

German has a third gender pronoun, but like in English, it is not neutral connotated. Objects(and "girl" interestingly) are refered to with it, but never humans, it is seen as derogatory to use it for a person, and therefore hardly ever used by someone who does not use either "he" or "she" as gender pronouns. Which, makes the whole issue hella complicated, because there literally isn't another one that could be used.

There is so much unlearning to do - not only colonialism but a good chunk of our own European history as well, regarding gender issues.


message 10: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 01, 2018 07:44AM) (new)

When my friend told me about this neutral "gender" I was suprised. My first thought was not about feminism, I was simply wondering "how they make the difference while talking", but that is really interesting.
However, it does not mean that feminism and gender equality are wide spread (maybe it is widespread) in this country. When I discuss with my indonesian friend (let's not make it general of course) he kind of cares more about woman than man. A woman needs to be beautiful for different reasons just like marriage etc... it seems to be cultural and I do not really agree with those points.

Ana, yes, muslim religion is the main one in this country. This is not suprising, to the best of my knowledge many countries in Sout-East of Asia are essentially muslim.

MeerderWörter wrote: "Florian wrote: "Ross wrote: "language is the key the science of sociolinguistics shows the power of how we address each other and the connotations gender terms have in our cultures"

I agree, it de..."


=> I do not know if it would be good or not, it is super difficult because there are so many languages, but it is not impossible ;)


message 11: by Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator (new)

Ana PF | 746 comments Mod
Florian wrote: "Ana, yes, muslim religion is the main one in this country. This is not suprising, to the best of my knowledge many countries in Sout-East of Asia are essentially muslim."

Oh, no, I meant that I thought it surprising that in a country where religion is heavy, with one of the main ones being fairly conservative, you would get to hear gender issues openly discussed, if at all. However, I now realise you were probably referring to simply asking more so as to actually ascertain the subject of conversation. Clearly in need of some rest that day!!


message 12: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Florian wrote: "When my friend told me about this neutral "gender" I was suprised. My first thought was not about feminism, I was simply wondering "how they make the difference while talking", but that is really i..."

Oh, what I wanted to say was the following:
When we introduce ourselves to each other, we not only should say our name, but our personal gender pronoun too.

As in:
I identify as a woman, thus I say:
Hi, I'm... X and my personal gender pronouns are she/her.
That would make a lot of things easier to be honest, as there would be no guessing anymore as to who goes with which gender pronoun. And it is also an affirmation of one's own gender, it shows the diversity... it is transgender-friendly.
For me, there are no negatives per se, saying it. Of course, some conservative people might get irritated, but hey, the gender dichotomy is a lie anyways, and we better not keep lying, do we?


message 13: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 01, 2018 10:21AM) (new)

Ana wrote: "Florian wrote: "Ana, yes, muslim religion is the main one in this country. This is not suprising, to the best of my knowledge many countries in Sout-East of Asia are essentially muslim."

Oh, no, I..."


Haha! No worries!

MeerderWörter wrote: "Florian wrote: "When my friend told me about this neutral "gender" I was suprised. My first thought was not about feminism, I was simply wondering "how they make the difference while talking", but ..."

Hum... I see, I did not understand what you meant at the beginning, but I think I got your point now. I was wondering how an evolution would be possible without removing culture and identity of languages and history. I am not super fan of removing things unless it is necessary or just because those things are actually useless.
The idea about mentioning our personal gender with a word or pronoun is attractive for sure! :)

Emma wrote: "Florian wrote: "When my friend told me about this neutral "gender" I was suprised. My first thought was not about feminism, I was simply wondering "how they make the difference while talking", but ..."

Fair things always worth it :)


All of this makes me think about languages which use characters, I have no idea how they work but I know that specific characters are used for past tense for example ( it is like "verb character + past character), but I am not really sure though. Therefore I am thinking that maybe characters are used to make the diffence between a male or a female, or transgender. It would be like the idea MeerderWörter mentionned (if I am not wrong :) ).


message 14: by MeerderWörter (last edited Jan 01, 2018 10:40AM) (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Florian wrote: "Ana wrote: "Florian wrote: "Ana, yes, muslim religion is the main one in this country. This is not suprising, to the best of my knowledge many countries in Sout-East of Asia are essentially muslim...."

What I wanted to say was that we should always say the gender pronouns that we use when we introduce ourselves. With this, we can't misgender somebody. Also, it would change the way we think, and it would help a lot of transgender people as coming out is difficult is difficult enough for them already.

When we introduce ourselves, our names have a gender (a name is gendered as in that name is either masculine or feminine, at least in Western societies). But we were given our names, and our names don't always align with our gender identities. Which is why I think it is important to also say one's gender pronouns.

Maybe I could clarify my thoughts for you now?

What you wrote in your last comment about "specific characters" makes me think of how in German we distinguish gender of a person by changing the ending of the word (sometimes the whole word is gendered, but there are efforts to change that, so that it says "tending person" and not "nurse").
It's not really what I was thinking of, but interesting as well. If you listen to the radio episode, one of the speakers introduces herself in Navajo, and they say that Navajo has 8 gender identifications.
When I say we should introduce ourselves with not only our name, but our gender pronouns as well, I was thinking of what they were saying, because gender pronouns are used for gender identifications.
Now better?
Or more questions? I love discussing this!


message 15: by [deleted user] (last edited Jan 01, 2018 11:48AM) (new)

MeerderWörter wrote: "Florian wrote: "Ana wrote: "Florian wrote: "Ana, yes, muslim religion is the main one in this country. This is not suprising, to the best of my knowledge many countries in Sout-East of Asia are ess..."

thanks for clarifying! :) I also enjoy discussing about that but sometime I need to clarify my own mind, it is like ideas and thoughts all over my little head :)

No more questions... for now :D


message 16: by MeerderWörter (new)

MeerderWörter | 2388 comments Florian wrote: "MeerderWörter wrote: "Florian wrote: "Ana wrote: "Florian wrote: "Ana, yes, muslim religion is the main one in this country. This is not suprising, to the best of my knowledge many countries in Sou..."

I know that feeling:)
And you're welcome!


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