2018 Challenge - Ngaio Marsh

[Judy]

Adrian wrote: "Having played catch-up to a small extent on the Ngaio Marsh challenge, I have to agree with Susan that Christie has travelled better and in my opinion IS better. ..."

We haven't got all that far yet, but I think I may tend to prefer Marsh and other writers such as Sayers for just the opposite reasons to why some readers prefer Christie - because there is more flavour of the period, slang, clothes, etc.

Though, having said that, the first Tommy and Tuppence story did have lots of 1920s slang and a flapper feel to it.

[Tara]

I think you are on to something there Judy. I feel like many modern attempts to set stories in earlier times either ignore these changes in language and slang altogether, or do a bad job of it. As much as I can be confused with what they are talking about sometimes, it does have the impact of transporting you in time in a way that stories that "travel well" are not as effective in doing. From that perspective it is both a story for a story's sake, as well as a historical artifact, which is pretty cool in my book.

[Susan]

I enjoy Sayers and Wimsey's slang, and his monocle, plus all the other affectations. However, I can also see why it turns off a lot of modern readers, who want reality. Most GA crime is not realistic - Poirot was a detective, at least, who could be hired, but amateur detectives who wander in and out of crime scenes do probably annoy some readers. I will say the Bathgate's of these worlds do not bother me in the least, but it is unlikely a detective would send a journalist to investigate a secret meeting of communists, for example, rather than just sending someone undercover :)

[Saira]

Can i get these novels online?

[Susan]

Hi Saira. They are available on kindle in most countries. I can see, from your profile, that you are in Pakistan, so you will have to check. Let us know if you can find them and we hope you can join in.

[Lesley]

Now that we are almost half-way through our Marsh challenge and getting to know her main characters, here's a piece on Ngaio Marsh, written by Dr Bruce Harding, curator of Ngaio Marsh's home/museum, and endless font of knowledge on the woman and her writing.

It is a somewhat long piece of writing, containing a lot of information on all aspects. And, since we have been talking about Alleyn, his style and personality, you'll see what Marsh herself thought of him, as well as opinions and thoughts of other writers of her time and genre on her work and characters.

http://www.ngaio-marsh.org.nz/bh_art2...

Enjoy! I certainly did.

[Susan]

Thanks for posting this, Lesley :)

[Lesley]

Ngaio Marsh Awards

The Ngaio Marsh Awards have celebrated the best New Zealand crime, mystery, thriller, and suspense writing since 2010, and this year’s longlist runs the full gamut, from detective fiction to gothic suspense to psychological thrillers to historical mysteries and magic realism

This year’s longlist for the Ngaio Marsh Award for Best Novel includes a mix of new and experienced voices, several authors who’ve won and been shortlisted for a variety of awards in several countries, and writers ranging in age from early 20s to early 80s.

“It’s a really eclectic mix of tales on this year’s longlist,” says Sisterson. “Exhibits A-E, we have the return of Edmund Bohan’s nineteenth century detective Inspector O’Rorke after a fifteen-year absence, Stella Duffy’s first crime novel in more than a decade, a stunning debut from an ex-undercover cop, and two tales that impressed the Ockhams judges.”

The longlist for the 2018 Ngaio Marsh Award for Best Novel is:
- by Alan Carter (Fremantle Press)
- by Annaleese Jochems (VUP)
- by Charity Norman (Allen & Unwin)
- by Edmund Bohan (Lucano)
- by Finn Bell
- by Katherine Hayton
- by Kirsten McDougall (VUP)
- by Nathan Blackell (Mary Egan Publishing)
- by Paul Cleave (Upstart Press)
- by Stella Duffy (Virago)

The longlist is currently being considered by a judging panel of crime, thriller, and suspense writing experts from the United States, United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand.

The finalists will be announced in July, along with the finalists for the Ngaio Marsh Award for Best First Novel. The finalists will be celebrated, and the winners announced as part of a special event at the WORD Christchurch Festival on 1 September.

Source: Booksellers NZ
https://www.booksellers.co.nz/news/re...

[Annabel]

I've never been a huge fan of Ngaio Marsh but I do like a 'closed set' detective story with a limited cast of suspects and she wrote (at least?) two of these, Clutch of Constables and Singing in the Shrouds.

I was thinking about these two books recently when someone in our discussions mentioned Troy (CoC is narrated almost entirely from her perspective) and pondering a reread. From what I remember, both books have an interesting (not to say slightly grotesque) cast of characters but are marred by what appears to be the author's snobbishness about the less upper-class/socially adept characters. Would anyone who has read these books agree? Will I find them too jarring now to reread?

My recollection is that CoC has a more interesting structure, a better realised setting and a more creative puzzle at its heart. Singing in the Shrouds is rather simplistic, although I like the incidental love story. So perhaps CoC is the one to reread.

[Louise]

Susan wrote: "All of the Big Four are very different, really. I wonder who would be the greatest of the male UK GA authors? Who would be the contenders, do we think?"

I don't know who is the greatest, but my favoruite from the 1930swould be Stuart Palmer, I love his Miss Withers books, especially The Blackboard Murders, which I think is my favourite. ALso quite partial to ALan Hunter's George Gently books, though they perhaps don't count as they started in the 50s.

[Susan]

I don't think I have heard of Stuart Palmer, Louise. Was Miss Withers a kind of Miss Marple character?

[Rosina]

Susan wrote: "I don't think I have heard of Stuart Palmer, Louise. Was Miss Withers a kind of Miss Marple character?"

I've just borrowed a free Kindle copy of the first The Penguin Pool Murder, but the summary makes her sound like a forerunner to Miss Seeton, the umbrella wielding former teacher heroine of Heron Carvic's novel. For those who also like Tolkien, Heron Carvic played Gandalf in the BBC radio version of the Hobbit ...

[Elinor]

Rosina wrote: "Susan wrote: "I don't think I have heard of Stuart Palmer, Louise. Was Miss Withers a kind of Miss Marple character?"

I've just borrowed a free Kindle copy of the first [book:The Penguin Pool Murd..."

I so love Miss Seeton she is so funny !

[Susan]

Picture Miss Seeton 1st in series, currently 99p. I will have to have a look, thanks everyone.

[Louise]

Susan wrote: "I don't think I have heard of Stuart Palmer, Louise. Was Miss Withers a kind of Miss Marple character?"

she's a more forceful character than Miss Marple, and is younger, I think probably in her forties or thereabouts. Her close associate is Inspector Oscar Piper of the New York Police, at the end of the first book, The Penguin Pool Murder, they are going to get married, but in subsequent books they are still single. THe first book was made into a film with Edna May Oliver as Miss Withers, it is quite good.

[Jan C]

Louise wrote: "Susan wrote: "I don't think I have heard of Stuart Palmer, Louise. Was Miss Withers a kind of Miss Marple character?"

she's a more forceful character than Miss Marple, and is younger, I think prob..."

There were 5 movies made, 3 different Miss Withers - Oliver, Helen Broderick and Zasu Pitts.

[Louise]

I've only seen the first one. I thought Edna May Oliver was excellent, though I have the impression from the books that Miss Withers is a little younger than Oliver was, though it doesn't really matter. she is a good character anyway, and the exchanges between her and Oscar Piper are always entertaining.

[Louise]

Lesley~aka Ella's Gran wrote: "Now that we are almost half-way through our Marsh challenge and getting to know her main characters, here's a piece on Ngaio Marsh, written by Dr Bruce Harding, curator of Ngaio Marsh's home/museum..."

Lesley~aka Ella's Gran wrote: "Now that we are almost half-way through our Marsh challenge and getting to know her main characters, here's a piece on Ngaio Marsh, written by Dr Bruce Harding, curator of Ngaio Marsh's home/museum..."

it's quite interesting, though I don't agree about Agatha Christie's characters being two dimensional, I think she created some marvellous characters. ANd Poirot is certainly more believable as a detective than Alleyn - what is a sensitive art loving Shakespeare quoting toff doing in the police force? most unlikely I would say. ALso he says women voted for the first time in -1928, which they did not - women over thirty got the vote in 1918.

[Bev]

I just had to share with you all the influence this challenge has had on me.

So...last night I had a Ngaio Marsh mystery-inspired dream. Inspector Alleyn was doing his wrap-up bit at the end of the mystery--explaining why it was this village constable who did it. [It was like I was in the story and reading it all at the same time.] The way we--the audience--should have known was by the fact that Constable Jones (or whatever his name was) was allowed to work with the Scotland Yarders at the beginning, but never appeared with them after about a third of the way in or so AND something to do with this stack of papers that had been found in the vicinity of the body. I (brave little me) spoke up and said it couldn't be Constable Jones because of X, Y, and Z (I don't recall the exact points--but they were brilliant observations, let me tell you)...I woke before finding out who really did it. [I'm sure Rory Alleyn was ever so pleased that I was showing him up. :-D]

[Susan]

Bev wrote: "I just had to share with you all the influence this challenge has had on me.

So...last night I had a Ngaio Marsh mystery-inspired dream. Inspector Alleyn was doing his wrap-up bit at the end of t..."

I can imagine your observations were utterly brilliant, Bev. You will do poor Fox out of a job :)

[Bev]

Susan wrote: "Bev wrote: "I just had to share with you all the influence this challenge has had on me.

So...last night I had a Ngaio Marsh mystery-inspired dream. Inspector Alleyn was doing his wrap-up bit at ..."

LOL. I'm sure Fox is quite secure....

[Susan]

Are you good with cameras? You could deputise for Bunter, perhaps?

Either way, thanks for sharing - I wish I had such interesting dreams :)

[Judy]

That’s amazing, Bev

[Bev]

Susan wrote: "Are you good with cameras? You could deputise for Bunter, perhaps?

Either way, thanks for sharing - I wish I had such interesting dreams :)"

Susan...I'm decent with cameras. But not adept at developing the pictures like Bunter is.

[Bev]

Judy wrote: "That’s amazing, Bev"

Thanks, Judy. I just wish I'd stayed asleep long enough to see who I thought did it. :-)

[Lesley]

Louise wrote: "Lesley~aka Ella's Gran wrote: "Now that we are almost half-way through our Marsh challenge and getting to know her main characters, here's a piece on Ngaio Marsh, written by Dr Bruce Harding, curat..."

Yes, that's right. Women over 30 were given the right to vote in 1918 in UK, but the Equal Franchise Act 1928 allowed women over the age of 21 to vote.

Not an excuse, but a reason for Marsh to make that statement via Alleyn could be because she was used to women over the age of 21 having the right to vote all her life. NZ women were granted the right to vote on 19 September 1893 alongside their male counterparts - 21 years and over.

[Lesley]

For those interested, sharing an extract from an essay written by Ngaio Marsh retrieved from Burack, A.S. (1977). Writing suspense and mystery fiction. Boston: The Writer Inc.

"Birth of a Sleuth.
He was born with the rank of Detective-Inspector, C.I.D., on a very wet Saturday afternoon in a basement flat off Sloane Square, in London. The year was 1931.
All day, rain splashed up from the feet of passersby going to and fro, at eye-level, outside my water-streaked windows. It fanned out from under the tires of cars, cascaded down the steps to my door and flooded the area. "Remorseless" was the word for it and its sound was, beyond all expression, dreary. In view of what was about to take place, the setting was, in fact, almost too good to be true.
I read a detective story borrowed from a dim little lending-library in a stationer's shop across the way. Either a Christie or a Sayers, I think it was. By four o'clock, when the afternoon was already darkening, I had finished it, and still the rain came down. I remember that I made up the London coal-fire of those days and looked down at it, idly wondering if I had it in me to write something in the genre. That was the season, in England, when the Murder Game was popular at weekend parties."...
..."I thought that my detective would be a professional policeman but, in some ways, atypical; an attractive, civilized man with whom it would be pleasant to talk but much less pleasant to fall out.
He began to solidify."