Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Interim Readings
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A Worn Path
Cphe wrote: ""Her eyes were blue with age"Has the colour blue always been associated with age?
I've never really thought about it, or come across the term before."
I don't know if the color blue has been associated with aging. But I know the color of your eyes can change as you age depending on whether or not you have certain types of eye diseases.
I can recall seeing some older people and even an old dog of mine that had blue eyes and developed glaucoma causing their pupils to cloud up giving their eyes an almost solid, but hazy light blue appearance. You can see some examples by googling for images of glaucoma.
The hunter finds Phoenix in a ditch but unfazed. He seems to point his gun at her (a horrifying act) to see if he could faze her.
Roger wrote: "The hunter finds Phoenix in a ditch but unfazed. He seems to point his gun at her (a horrifying act) to see if he could faze her."I think you're right. He wanted to scare her. But i don't understand why he would want to scare an elderly woman who had fallen into a ditch--especially after he helped her get out of the ditch.
A very nice story. I hope 'spoilers' are allowed (considering how short and uneventful it is, what is there to spoil?)-At any rate, I barely remembered it, but I am sure I read this story in 10th grade. I remember that the grandson had swallowed lye, mainly because I had no idea what lye is..
(probably there was a footnote in my 10th grade English textbook: "lye, a caustic substance used for laundering clothes")
And then I had a flashback when I got to the line: "sweet-gum make the water sweet," maybe because that became some sort of 'in joke' at the time. At any rate, the phrase has a certain ridiculous quality. Sweet-gum?
Anyway, here is something I found by googling:
Natchez is a city in Mississippi. Set on the Mississippi River, it’s known for antebellum mansions like the unfinished, octagonal Longwood, and the Melrose estate, part of the Natchez National Historical Park. Once a trade route, Natchez Trace Parkway is now a recreational road and scenic drive. To the south, Grand Village of the Natchez Indians is home to a reconstructed Natchez house and three ceremonial mounds.
Population:15,109 (2016)
The mention of the Natchez trail doesn't really help locate the setting of the story, because the trail goes all the way to Nashville. So, what is the big city? Jackson?
Also, is the story set in 1941, or a little further back in time?
Phoenix says she was too old 'at the surrender' to get an education, so it may be no exaggeration to say she is a hundred years old in 1941. Or, say she was 20 in 1865, she would be 94.
"Ain't no telling," as she says.
It's interesting that she refers to 1865 as the "surrender", as if her people were the ones surrendering.
Roger wrote: "It's interesting that she refers to 1865 as the "surrender", as if her people were the ones surrendering."If you put it this way:
The South surrendered. She was southern, ergo...
I do remember "five pennies make a nickel" being discussed in 10th grade as a polite way to ask for a little more money.Ten cents was a pretty big windfall for Phoenix.
I have to wonder if she is virtually blind (as she seems to be) how she spotted the nickel falling out of the hunter's pocket.
The nickel falls out of the man’s pocket. She doesn’t give it back to him. Instead, she reaches for it and surreptitiously puts it in her pocket. She considers her action to be a form of stealing. God watching me the whole time. I come to stealing.
At first, I thought the man had seen her pocketing the nickel and that’s why he pointed his gun at her. But after reading it again, I’m not so sure he saw that.
The attendant at the doctor’s office offers her “a few pennies.” She asks for more. She wants a nickel i.e. asking for a bigger handout.
Both incidents with the nickel paint her in a somewhat questionable light. However, when we learn at the end she intends to use the money to buy a gift for her grandson, she seems to redeem herself. Her actions may be somewhat questionable but they are selfless.
Is this a question of the end justifying the means?
Welty may be showing us that Phoenix will go to any lengths for her grandson. She will embark on a difficult journey every year to get him his medicine. And she is willing to compromise her integrity if it means she can buy him a gift.
Cphe wrote: "I also thought that Phoenix pocketing the nickel went against what we as readers knew of her up to that point."Does our opinion of her change when we see her pocketing the nickel? Or does it reinforce what we knew of her up to that point, i.e. that she is fearless and will go to any lengths to help her grandson?
Her poverty is so great that a nickel is a precious windfall. Yet she used it to buy a present for her grandson.
Roger wrote: "Her poverty is so great that a nickel is a precious windfall. Yet she used it to buy a present for her grandson."It WAS Christmas, after all.
What do you make of the name Phoenix? Does anyone see a connection with the mythical phoenix? I don't know that there is a connection, but I figure it can't just be coincidence.
“Sweet gum” is a kind of tree that grows in the South, and I took it she was referring to the hollow log the water ran through. Whether it was the wood that made the water taste good or her long walk, I don’t know.
I like her name, Phoenix. She seems to rise up repeatedly from her infirmaries and other obstacles. And she keeps trudging along, a bit like Odysseus.I wonder if her grandson is actually dead? She says he is not, but we don't have much to go on to establish her reliability.
David wrote: "I like her name, Phoenix. She seems to rise up repeatedly from her infirmaries and other obstacles. And she keeps trudging along, a bit like Odysseus.I love that. I hadn't thought of the connection that way. She is resilient and keeps rising up in spite of the obstacles.
I wonder if her grandson is actually dead? Sh..."
I don't know that there is any evidence for that. She may be delusional and forgetful, but I didn't find any words to suggest her grandson is actually dead.
Tamara wrote: "I don't know that there is any evidence for that. She may be delusional and forgetful, but I didn't find any words to suggest her grandson is actually dead...."Except that the clinic keeps asking her. And l'd think lye on the throat would be pretty devastating. I wonder what caused that in the first place -- many possibilities exist, from carelessness with a child around when soap making to more sinister. It seems to be these two alone and together?
Lily wrote: "Except that the clinic keeps asking her."I was curious over her delay in answering that caused the question to be repeated. Is she hard of hearing or does she pause while thinking she not want to state he is dead out loud?
I found this in the author's own words:
I had not meant to mystify readers by witholding any fact. . .As the author at one with the character as I tell it, I must assume that the boy is alive. As the reader, you are free to think as you like. . .Could her periodic odyssey be motivated by guilt as much as love?
Eudora Welty, Is Phoenix Jackson's Grandson Really Dead?, Critical Inquiry 1, no. 1 (Sep., 1974): 219-221.
https://doi.org/10.1086/447784
I, for one, think the boy is alive. Phoenix may be proud and forgetful, but she is no madwoman. I'm on her side. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
David wrote: "Lily wrote: "Except that the clinic keeps asking her."I was curious over her delay in answering that caused the question to be repeated. Is she hard of hearing or does she pause while thinking sh..."
You've set my mind spinning. The possibility that her grandson may be dead has brought to mind Faulkner's A Rose for Emily.
To take it one step further, how about if the name Phoenix doesn't only refer to her ability to rise? How about if it also refers to her making her grandson "rise" from the ashes. In other words, what if Phoenix has created for herself a world of alternative facts? What if she embarks on this annual odyssey as a way to resuscitate her grandson in her mind, to convince herself he is still alive, and to give meaning and purpose to her life?
A lot of "what ifs" in there. But when it comes down to it, I'm with Roger. I think the boy is alive.
I don't know what to take from the shoe tying event.1. Phoenix can overcome the great obstacles in her long walk despite the inability to tie her own shoes?
2. The young lady who ties her shoes represents either the kindness or strangers or Phoenix's dependency on the kindness of strangers? Does the fact that she makes the request say she expects or maybe feels entitled somehow for help from strangers?
3. Believing that untied shoes are appropriate for the woods, but not city streets reveals a certain sense of keeping up appearances in public.
David wrote: "I don't know what to take from the shoe tying event.1. Phoenix can overcome the great obstacles in her long walk despite the inability to tie her own shoes?
2. The young lady who ties her shoes r..."
I think it is difficult for Phoenix to bend over--it some work for her to pick up the nickel. The feeling I got was that the young woman was carrying a lot of Christmas presents and so might be willing to give of herself. There was no-one in the woods to help her, except the hunter, I wouldn't ask him for a drink of water in Hell.
@25 David wrote: "...I found this in the author's own words:..."I adore that find! It reinforces a (modern?) view of storytelling -- the story told and the story heard are not necessarily identical.
(I have been reading R. Marie Griffith's Moral Combat today, which is full of anecdotes where prior values influenced the "meanings" ascribed those anecdotes -- in completely opposite directions and not necessarily with consistency.)
Roger wrote: "I think it is difficult for Phoenix to bend over"I can't bend over as well as I used to either, but I cannot imagine, at least for now, going outside my office and asking anyone, especially anyone who is obviously burdened by christmas presents, to tie my shoes.
I am also sure I would be very uncomfortable if I were carrying Christmas presents and a strange old lady on the street asked me to tie her shoes. I suppose I would look around for the hidden cameras first and watch for some accomplice to come out of hiding with a blackjack.
I just find the whole shoe tying event very odd and a little creepy. Maybe this is just one more thing she is willing to put up with to get medicine for her grandson? It seems enough of an indignity to have to have someone else tie your shoes, but having to ask an already burdened stranger to tie your shoes seems much worse.
This also makes me suspect she might need her grandson, however old he is, as much as he needs her.
Lily wrote: "David wrote: "...I found this in the author's own words:..."I adore that find!"
Yeah, I wish I could read the rest of it for free but they all seem to be behind paywalls.
David wrote: "Lily wrote: "David wrote: "...I found this in the author's own words:..."I adore that find!"
Yeah, I wish I could read the rest of it for free but they all seem to be behind paywalls."
Does your library system have access? Once in awhile I spot something I figure to be worth bothering one of our research librarians to obtain. In NJ, some state resources exist at a tier above the community system. Unfortunately, I no longer have access to the library resources of a good university -- as I did when my son was working at one. Didn't use it often, but a nice resource to be able to tap.
David wrote: "...I just find the whole shoe tying event very odd and a little creepy...."That "creepy" reaction surprises me. (Having a gun stuck in one's face seems creepier to me.) I can so well imagine this old woman who has tramped through the words with her shoes, probably sneakers, untied, and then, upon reaching a street, asking for help of the nearest kindly looking stranger to "tie her laces." Even at my age, I've probably made some analogous innocuous request for help of a stranger. Here Welty may be extending it to a bit of religious symbolism. Or maybe not.
I have always found Welty a difficult writer to understand. I don't know if it is my sparseness of knowledge about the cultures of the places wherein she writes or no particular personal affinity with gothic elements or ...
I don't know why you say 'sneakers.' It seems to me that if you could only have one pair of shoes, they wouldn't be sneakers.I could not find a good image of a depression era woman wearing shoes, but I imagined something like these:
PS- Maybe one reason the kid couldn't come too was that he didn't have shoes:
Lily wrote: "David wrote: "...I just find the whole shoe tying event very odd and a little creepy...."That "creepy" reaction surprises me. (Having a gun stuck in one's face seems creepier to me.)"
I suppose we all have our own thresholds for creepy. Tying your own shoes seems a little too personal to go asking busy strangers for help with. Asking them for directions is OK. Strangers asking for gas money to see their sick aunt is sleezy, and according to my wife, more than a little creepy if you are a alone.. Anyone, but especially Nigerian princes asking strangers for bank account numbers should raise a big red flag. Pointing a gun at someone is an egregious threat and goes well beyond creepy. Otherwise humorless, silent blind children playing banjos on rural porches is creepy.(Ref: Deliverance)
I suppose Phoenix's blasé attitude towards these things is what gets her over them an the other obstacles in her life. Maybe from her perspective they all pale in light of her grandson's plight and her devotion to him.
Cphe wrote: "Is it a sign of whimsy, daydreaming, old age, early dementia?"Maybe all of the above.
David wrote: "....Strangers asking for gas money to see their sick aunt is sleezy, and according to my wife, more than a little creepy if you are a alone.. ..."[g] Reminds me of one of the times I got "taken" -- waiting for my son and sitting in my car on the street alongside his campus, a nicely dressed guy, silver grey down jacket, asked for money for some seemingly good reason now forgotten, said he would be back within a few moments. Of course, he wasn't and, when son arrived, he shook his head at his mother's naivete. The ageless question of when trust, when not.
(A dramatic one on trusting in prayer is a story about his mother Trever Noah tells in the final pages of his Born a Crime..)
Christopher wrote: "...I could not find a good image of a depression era woman wearing shoes, but I imagined something like these:..."For the time, your visualization is probably more accurate than mine!
There seems to be something selfless about Phoenix. Not in the altruistic sense, but in the psychological sense. The way she talks to herself -- "I wasn't as old as I thought" -- her lack of fear as she lies in the ditch, and later when the hunter points his gun at her, her disregard for differences in class and condition when she asks the nice lady with her arms full of presents to tie her shoes, and at the end she momentarily forgets who she is entirely. But she is quite aware of the world around her. The way she distracts the hunter to recover that nickel is classic. She is detached, perhaps even dissociative at times, but she's not insensible. Like David, I thought of Odysseus a few times while reading this story. A wonderful story.
In looking at images associated with Eudora Welty, I came across this "SCRIBD" analysis of "A Worn Path." Even though perhaps a bit euphemistic, since it makes a point or two that eluded me, I'll share it here:(view spoiler)
Christopher wrote: "I don't know why you say 'sneakers.' It seems to me that if you could only have one pair of shoes, they wouldn't be sneakers. ..."The image here is especially for Chris:
http://home.earthlink.net/~brschwartz...
If you follow the picture gallery, there are a number of images for the story from a film/video. But better ones can be found by googling "images Eudora Welty Worn Path."
David’s comment about the Odyssey (#22) got me thinking about parallels with the Odyssey. I see three so far:The hunter as Circe: Circe initially welcomes Odysseus into her home. She then points her wand at him to turn him into a pig but her attempt fails. Odysseus has passed the test.
The hunter initially helps Phoenix get out of the ditch. He then points his gun (Circe’s wand) at Phoenix but she is unfazed by it. She “passes” the test just as Odysseus passed the test.
The lady who ties her shoelaces as Nausicaa. Odysseus emerges filthy and naked on the island of the Phaikians. After he bathes, Nausicaa gives him clothes so he can look respectable before heading to the city. Similarly, Phoenix gets help from the lady since she wants to look respectable before heading to the clinic.
The clinic as the Phaikians. Just as the Phaikians give Odysseus treasures and gifts before helping him to get back home, the clinic gives Phoenix gifts (money) and the medication she needs to get back home.
Tamara wrote: "David’s comment about the Odyssey (#22) got me thinking about parallels with the Odyssey. I see three so far:The hunter as Circe: Circe initially welcomes Odysseus into her home. She then points ..."
Brilliant!
Tamara wrote: "The hunter as Circe: Circe initially welcomes Odysseus into her home. She then points her wand at him to turn him into a pig but her attempt fails. Odysseus has passed the test. "Odysseus passes Circe's test after drinking Mercury's potion (moly.) And right before the episode with the hunter, Phoenix drinks from the sweet-gum stream.
Thomas wrote: "Tamara wrote: "The hunter as Circe: Circe initially welcomes Odysseus into her home. She then points her wand at him to turn him into a pig but her attempt fails. Odysseus has passed the test..."Wow!, I second Roger's Brilliant comment. I stopped much too short in my comparison. Nice job comparing individual obstacles between stories! Now it almost seems like Welty did it on purpose? Hmm?
David wrote: "Wow!, I second Roger's Brilliant comment. .."Thank you and thanks to Roger. But if it weren't for your mention of Odysseus, we wouldn't have gone down that path. This was a collaborative effort so credit has to be shared.
Thomas wrote: "Odysseus passes Circe's test after drinking Mercury's potion (moly.) And right before the episode with the hunter, Phoenix drinks from the sweet-gum stream.How about the scarecrow she sees before she drinks from the sweet-gum stream as Hermes?
The various slides, comments, et al I have encountered on the Net also reinforce how carefully Welty may have constructed this little tale, or drawn intuitively on her own wide-ranging reading. For example, one slide pointed out similarities in colors with those traditionally associated with The Phoenix. I won't try to find that one again, but here are two items I encountered later that reinforced that view:An image of a Phoenix:
Additional images on the site listed in the notes.
Color comparisons: [lengthy, therefore:] (view spoiler)
David wrote: "Lily wrote: "David wrote: "...I just find the whole shoe tying event very odd and a little creepy...."That "creepy" reaction surprises me. (Having a gun stuck in one's face seems creepier to me.)..."
As I thought back on this tale and having listened to Nancy Cantor, Rutgers-Newark Chancellor, speak this past week about the recent incident in Charlottesville, it was obvious why the hunter's actions reminded me of more sinister actions still prevalent in the time frame of this story. As Dr. Cantor indicated, lynching of black women was rare, but still occurred. I felt as if Welty chose a metaphor for her story.
Cphe wrote: "..........." She did not dare to close her eyes, and when a little boy brought her a plate with a slice of marble-cake on it she spoke to him. "That would be acceptable," she said. But when she wen..."Cphe -- glad you brought this forward. It was another of those Welty passages that confound me. Did someone here say it, or did I read it somewhere else -- that the marble cake can be considered a metaphor of chocolate and vanilla, black and white, successfully (deliciously?) coexisting, but when Phoenix reached to partake, it was a mirage. Not totally unlike the comment that it could be considered a Lord's supper moment -- more spiritual yearning than simply of the elements.
I thought it was indicative of near starvation that she dreams of cake.The racial harmony that is a mirage... hmm. Maybe.
I want to say about the hunter and the gun, that it's not a very nice gesture, but it's nothing like a lynching.
Bear in mind that if he's hunting quail, then the gun, if it is loade at all, and it may not be loaded, is loaded with buckshot, which would not kill her.
But Phoenix must know this. She's not scared.
Just sayin'. Take it or leave it.
Tamara wrote: "How about the scarecrow she sees before she drinks from the sweet-gum stream as Hermes? "Sure! Hermes (better than "Mercury" of course) is also a guide for souls on their journey to the underworld. The story seems to flirt with this kind of journey as well.
Christopher wrote: "I thought it was indicative of near starvation that she dreams of cake.The racial harmony that is a mirage... hmm. Maybe.
I want to say about the hunter and the gun, that it's not a very nice ges..."
I have done a good deal of recreational shooting and the first rule of safety that you learn is that you never, never, never point a gun, loaded or not, at someone you do not intend to shoot.
The gun would not have been loaded with buckshot--that is large shot, about 1/4 to 1/2 inch in diameter, that us used to hunt deer (i.e. bucks). But even with birdshot, a blast in the chest at point-blank range would certainly kill someone.
Roger wrote: "Christopher wrote: "I thought it was indicative of near starvation that she dreams of cake.The racial harmony that is a mirage... hmm. Maybe.
I want to say about the hunter and the gun, that it's..."
Thank you for the clarification.
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
Meanwhile There Are Letters: The Correspondence of Eudora Welty and Ross Macdonald (other topics)Meanwhile There Are Letters: The Correspondence of Eudora Welty and Ross Macdonald (other topics)
Born a Crime: Stories From a South African Childhood (other topics)
Moral Combat: How Sex Divided American Christians and Fractured American Politics (other topics)
A Worn Path (other topics)
On one level, this is a straightforward story about an elderly woman’s journey to obtain much needed medicine for her grandson. But because it is a story about a journey, it lends itself to a variety of interpretations. Can Phoenix’s journey on this “worn path” be read symbolically?
Phoenix encounters a hunter on her journey. He helps her get back on her feet after she falls into a ditch. But then, and for no apparent reason, he points his rifle at her. When she enters the town, she asks a young white woman to tie her shoes for her since she can’t reach them herself. The young woman obliges. What is the significance of these encounters?
The story takes place during the Christmas season with allusions, references, and images of Christmas peppering the story. How is the season relevant to the story?
In Egyptian mythology and later in the mythology of Ancient Greece, a phoenix is a bird that cyclically bursts into flames and then is reborn from its own ashes. It represents renewal/regeneration. Is this mythological bird an appropriate image for Phoenix Jackson?
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~drbr/ew_p...