Book 2 of The Iliad

[Kris]

This thread is for discussion of Book 2 of The Iliad.

[Kris]

Lots of focus on lists of men and their homes -- I'm assuming these names would trigger recognition from the audience, as lists are a common element in oral traditions -- not just Greek, but also in other traditions, including Welsh triads.

[Kris]

It's interesting to think about the roles of Thersites and Odysseus in Book 2. And gendered depictions of power and weakness are central in the passages detailing their exchanges.

[Kris]

And meanwhile, the conflict between Agamemnon and Achilles continues to play out.

[Jonathan]

I think (particularly after having read Weil's excellent essay) the list of men, some with mini backstories, humanises these individuals so that we see more clearly the effect of force when it turns them into "things" on the battlefield. It is also interesting that it comes just after Agamemnon's (rather cruel, I think) "test". It does seem there is a clear sense of the pointlessness of this whole war.

[Kris]

I like your perspective, Jonathan. I was also thinking about the difference in processing those lists when you are familiar with the geography of the region. Robert Moor discusses something similar about Cherokee tales in his On Trails: An Exploration -- how stories that first seem to simply be lists take on a different perspective when you are in the areas they describe.

[Lawyer]

Kris wrote: "I like your perspective, Jonathan. I was also thinking about the difference in processing those lists when you are familiar with the geography of the region. Robert Moor discusses ..."

Very true, Kris. I frequently see this aspect having moderated a group on Southern literature for nearly six years. From unique historical events, customs, geographical areas, to unique food dishes, many questions and discussions arise. It's "Greek" to many. GRIN

[Jonathan]

Interestingly I read today that the list of ships, and the places they come from, actually tells us a lot about how ancient this section must be.

Actually even Wikipedia covers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catal...

[W.D.]

Excellent, thanks. Boy, that list dragged for me though!

[Kris]

W.D. wrote: "Excellent, thanks. Boy, that list dragged for me though!"

It's all downhill from Book 2, Bill!

[Haaze]

Kris wrote: "Lots of focus on lists of men and their homes -- I'm assuming these names would trigger recognition from the audience, as lists are a common element in oral traditions -- not just Greek, but also i..."

I wonder how often people attended these oral performances during their lifetime? How frequently were they performed? Do we know anything at all about such matters? In a sense Book 2 sets the "stage" so to say with all the warriors and poleis participating in the long war. It is almost like a solemn prelude - a parade of people - preparing the audience for the events that will unfold. As you mentioned, Kris, the recognition could be a factor within the audience. Could one view it as a "history" lesson - a unique genealogy of the poleis?

[Kris]

Hi Haaze -- I'm going to check around some sources after I get home from work, and maybe if Tamara sees this she'll have something to add. In the interim, though, I just found a page including a sound file showing how two scholars think Homer's Odyssey could have sounded if sung. http://www.openculture.com/2016/10/wh...

More whenever I escape from work!

[Tamara]

Haaze and Kris--I'm currently reading Caroline Alexander's The War That Killed Achilles: The True Story of Homer's Iliad and the Trojan War (and loving it!).

This is what she says about the catalogue of ships and people:

Tedious as it can be to modern audiences, the Catalogue with its grave roll call of long-deserted places was undoubtedly warmly received by audiences who knew these names from folk and family lore, an anticipated feature, perhaps, of performances relating the saga of bygone times--and one that a professional singer of tales would omit only at his peril. Striking, too, is the epic's apologetic disclaimer of not being able to cite the names of "the multitude," or the troops--possibly a hint that this set piece received its final shape at a late stage, when the audiences' sympathetic interest in a huge military venture extended beyond the top tier of kings to the common soldier.

I don't know if that addresses the point you raised. I hope so :)

[Haaze]

It does indeed! However, it seems like pure speculation from Caroline Alexander:

"undoubtedly warmly received by audiences"
"a professional singer of tales would omit only at his peril"
"when the audiences' sympathetic interest in a huge military venture extended beyond the top tier of kings"

All interesting views, but just intelligent perspectives. We just don't know. I guess that is one of the frustrating aspects of these epics, i.e. how we try to imagine how they were performed as well as received.

I do agree with the thrust of Alexander's perspectives. I wonder if other oral epics have such "catalogues" of people before moving onto the main "story"? Aren't there still a tradition of oral epics in the area of Turkey? I faintly recall scenes from a documentary about Troy where the team filmed a performance in a local cafe. It was fascinating! I think it was Michael Wood's "In Search of the Trojan War" (episode 3 - Singer of Tales). It was fascinating. It has been a few years so I should watch it again. He combines geographical locations, archaeology, speculations and quotes from the "Iliad" to illuminate the the epic's history. Recommended! Many of you have probably already seen it. Six one hour episodes - here is the first one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkbUQ...

[Kris]

Tamara wrote: "Haaze and Kris--I'm currently reading Caroline Alexander's The War That Killed Achilles: The True Story of Homer's Iliad and the Trojan War (and loving it!).

This is what she says a..."

Thanks so much, Tamara!

[Haaze]

Tamara wrote: "Haaze and Kris--I'm currently reading Caroline Alexander's The War That Killed Achilles: The True Story of Homer's Iliad and the Trojan War (and loving it!).
..."

Hmm, that looks like an interesting book, Tamara!!!

[Tamara]

Kris wrote: "Thanks so much, Tamara!"

You're welcome.

[Tamara]

Haaze wrote: "Hmm, that looks like an interesting book, Tamara!!!"

I'm finding it fascinating.

[Sue]

Thanks all so much for the entire discussion and speculation on answers. Alexander's book does sound very interesting. Another for the very long list I think.

[Kathleen]

It took me a while to get through Book 2--quite a list. This discussion was very helpful--thank you!

I can see why the audiences enjoyed it at the time. Even the people and places audience members didn't know personally were likely repeated so often in stories that they felt like they knew them. This reminded me of some family reunions I've been to ...!