Dec 2017 BOTM: What I loved

[Diane]

I finished part one today. I am enjoying the book so far. The relationships are complex. I feel that reading this book is like peeling an onion. Each page peels back another layer on the characters. I have enjoyed everyone's musings on the book. You all see things differently than me so different perspectives are brought up. I am looking forward to reading section two next week.

[Jen]

Diane wrote: "I finished part one today. I am enjoying the book so far. The relationships are complex. I feel that reading this book is like peeling an onion. Each page peels back another layer on the characters..."

I can't wait to see what you think of the next section.

[Gail]

I have started the second section and now understand why the author has positioned the boys as she did. I have to admit I am almost having a physical reaction to their stories as if I knew them personally and can not help them.
In regards the art, I want to see Bill’s art and much of the descriptions allows me to come very close to seeing it. The way it plays life stories unfolding in words, numbers, doors, windows and ambiguous living versus watching that living is interesting. Strangely powerful storytelling.

[Kelly_Hunsaker_reads]

I am in Section 2 now also. I rarely read anything about a book before beginning it so I had no idea what was coming. I cried at the first sentence. And the pages that followed describing the lives of Bill and Erica blew me away. It is so accurate. Powerfully emotional and evocative writing!

[Kelly_Hunsaker_reads]

I finished Book 2. I could not set this novel down during Book 2. I need to go to bed now -- 3 am -- but I really want to keep reading.

[Diane]

This was a solid 4-star read for me. It is a very complex book with a lot of symbolism. I am sure a second reading would enable me to pick up some of the more subtle clues I may have missed with the first read. I think overall Hustvedt may well be a better writer than her more famous husband.

[Kelly_Hunsaker_reads]

I have about 50 pages to go -- it is minimum 4 star read for me too. I really like this book. In fact I absolutely loved Section 2.

[Diane]

Jen wrote: "Diane wrote: "I finished part one today. I am enjoying the book so far. The relationships are complex. I feel that reading this book is like peeling an onion. Each page peels back another layer on ..."

I see what you mean Jen about part two.

[Diane]

Gail wrote: "I have started the second section and now understand why the author has positioned the boys as she did. I have to admit I am almost having a physical reaction to their stories as if I knew them per..."

I had the same feeling Gail. I started part two last night and I didn't want to put it down.

[Jen]

What is this book about? What did you think of it overall? How did you find the pacing?

[Kelly_Hunsaker_reads]

Done. Wow. I really loved this book. I am not always the best at analysis but I will give it a go.

Pacing: Book 1 was slow and quiet and allowed me to get to know the characters really well. I found that by the end of Book 1 I was well attached. And then that first sentence of Book 2 hit me like a sledgehammer. It was painful. I cried. And even though it was already past midnight I could not put down the book until I finished Book 2. Her exploration of grief was beautiful. Book 3 felt more complicated but also a bit slower again. It felt like she used the Mark storyline to slowly take from Leo all that he had left.

What is it about? For me it is mostly about grief and loss... but that could be because that is what spoke to me most.

[Kristel]

I am in part 2 now and agree that this section is powerful, emotional and accurately done.

[Jen]

It was a 3.5 star book for me. I loved the first half and the beginning of the second half. I didn't love....
(view spoiler)[the story line of Mark as a sociopath. To me that part felt out of pace with the rest of the novel and with so much packed into the book already, I didn't feel like it needed it and almost felt like a different novel to me. I did find the whole thing very engaging and couldn't put it down. (hide spoiler)]

She's a new to me author and I would be interested in reading more by her. I agree with what has been said that it was an emotionally powerful book. I cried reading the 2nd half.

[Diane]

Jen wrote: "It was a 3.5 star book for me. I loved the first half and the beginning of the second half. I didn't love....
[spoilers removed]

She's a new to me author and I would be interested in reading more ..."

I didn't love that part either.

[Kelly_Hunsaker_reads]

Diane wrote: "Jen wrote: "It was a 3.5 star book for me. I loved the first half and the beginning of the second half. I didn't love....
[spoilers removed]

She's a new to me author and I would be interested in r..."'

Although I agree to some extent, I felt like it was a tool to add more grief to Leo's life. I also felt it illustrated the craziness of life (view spoiler)[-- Matt died and Mark lived. (hide spoiler)]

[Gail]

I finished the book. I was less moved by the third part than the first two but I did think it continued to be a fascinating study of what you can hold onto and what you can not hold onto. Not just grief but a larger subset of loss that includes one’s own thoughts. I continued also to find the art descriptions very well done. In general she walked a great line between thoughts and emotions. I do think that the third part was too far from that line but she needed to have Icarus fall from a great height so she stretched it. I would now like to read more of her work and I am even more fascinated by her marriage to Auster. Do you think that they live in two different apartments?

[Kelly_Hunsaker_reads]

Gail wrote: "I finished the book. I was less moved by the third part than the first two but I did think it continued to be a fascinating study of what you can hold onto and what you can not hold onto. Not just ..."

I hope not. I saw they have been married for ages, and their daughter is a singer/songwriter.

[Dree]

So ugh, I just made it to part 2. If I had known where this book was going I would not have started it in the first place. I have not read this kind of book (trying not to spoil) since well before I had kids.

So I have stopped. Unclear if I will continue or start a The Cathedral instead.

[Jen]

Dree wrote: "So ugh, I just made it to part 2. If I had known where this book was going I would not have started it in the first place. I have not read this kind of book (trying not to spoil) since well before ..."

It was a major shock for me and I often try to avoid the types of books where this happens. (view spoiler)[Not because of personal experience so much but b/c I find the whole thing extremely upsetting and even more so after becoming a parent. I will say that while the theme of loss does continue afterwards, mainly in how it impacts the parents, the book turns to other topics/themes pretty quickly and it is less upsetting. (hide spoiler)]

[Jen]

Gail wrote: "I finished the book. I was less moved by the third part than the first two but I did think it continued to be a fascinating study of what you can hold onto and what you can not hold onto. Not just ..."

I agree with you about everything you stated. I think the descriptions of his art were incredible and I really wanted to be able to attend an exhibition of his work. The descriptions were so vivid and beautifully tied into the storylines.

[Jen]

Question for those who have either finished the book or have made it past the first 10 pages of section 2... (view spoiler)[Dree mentioned earlier that she tries to avoid books that deal with the death or loss of children. Do you have any subjects or topics that you will avoid? How did you react to this event in the book? Are you a parent? If yes, do you think being a parent had an impact on how you reacted to this part of the story? (hide spoiler)]

[Kristel]

Jen wrote: "Question for those who have either finished the book or have made it past the first 10 pages of section 2... [spoilers removed]"

I do not avoid reading about loss, I think it has always helped me because it gives me words, pictures and support for what I experience.

I try to avoid books that are full of excess swear/vulgar language, too much sexual content and books that have agendas. I want to read good fiction.

[Jen]

Kristel wrote: "Jen wrote: "Question for those who have either finished the book or have made it past the first 10 pages of section 2... [spoilers removed]"

I do not avoid reading about loss, I think it has alway..."

I don't avoid books about loss but I don't like to read books (view spoiler)[about the death of children. These sorts of books are too distressing to me because I get vivid imagery about it and often weep uncontrollably. This probably only started happening to me after having my own child. (hide spoiler)].

[Kristel]

Jen wrote: "Kristel wrote: "Jen wrote: "Question for those who have either finished the book or have made it past the first 10 pages of section 2... [spoilers removed]"

I do not avoid reading about loss, I th..." I don't know if I know how to create a spoiler entry. But I know what you mean but I still don't avoid it and I would say more if I knew how to do that.

[Jen]

Kristel wrote: "Jen wrote: "Kristel wrote: "Jen wrote: "Question for those who have either finished the book or have made it past the first 10 pages of section 2... [spoilers removed]"

I do not avoid reading abou..."

You add the word "spoiler" in between the brackets at the beginning at the start of the spoiler and /spoiler in between the brackets to end the spoiler

[Kristel]

(view spoiler)[I feared the loss of my children especially my son who was bit of wild one. I was quite anxious when daughter started driving and when she started driving with my grandchildren, it all came back. A little girl in the neighborhood I drive through to get to work was backed over by her father’s pickup. I had a really hard time driving past their home because the image that would pop into my head and the grief that had to have been unbearable. I dealt with it by praying for them when I drove by. The parents really “survived” this tragedy which I think is remarkable. Still I don’t avoid grief. It actually helps me to deal with it. (hide spoiler)]

[Jen]

Kristel wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

Interestingly, I don't avoid grief or distressing things outside of books. I work clinically with patients around trauma and many of those trauma histories involve various forms of loss so I deal with loss quite a bit since I help others process these losses. Although admittedly I had a period of time after pregnancy where I really struggled to listen to certain types of traumas (view spoiler)[ involving the death of children. I used to have bad nightmares after listening to certain traumas and I still have very vivid memories of a few of my patients who killed or witnessed children dying. That's gotten better (exposure helps) but I don't want to read about it (hide spoiler)].

[Kristel]

I would not want to read about violence against, violence in itself is hard for me and I can say I avoid reading graphic violence and I won’t watch violent movies.

[Jen]

Kristel wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

And I wanted to thank you for sharing your story. I feel awful for that family but glad to hear they were able to successfully continue together.

[Kristel]

Jen wrote: "Kristel wrote: "[spoilers removed]"

And I wanted to thank you for sharing your story. I feel awful for that family but glad to hear they were able to successfully continue together." (view spoiler)[ They stayed married. She had cancer and was not suppose to have more children but decided to have another child. They had a girl. They built a play ground in memory of their daughter. I drive by it every day. They were remarkable couple. (hide spoiler)]

[Dree]

I do not read novels featuring (view spoiler)[ violence against/death of children (hide spoiler)] or extreme violence. I am not a fan of war novels either. I can and occasionally do read memoirs about these topics—well not extreme violence. I don’t get why anyone would choose to write a novel about such topics, and yes I judge them. (Salvage the Bones is a recent example—horrible book and I won’t ever try to read that author again.)

I don’t watch much in the way of TV/movies, but I pretty much avoid the same things.

[[deleted user]]

1. This was my first book by this author and I have no expectations going it.

2. Confession time I am not a big art lover and I can't remember the names of any paintings that moved me. I do love the romantic painters images of Arthurian legends and they have an impact on me as I spent a lot of my childhood visiting sites linked to the legends.

3. Friendship, marital love, parental love, conditional and unconditional love, unrequited love.

4. Friendship, marital and familial.

5. Bill does not view himself as separate from Violet he is part of her and she is part of him, this sets the scene for a book that will be intense emotionally.

6. I like the central characters with the exceptions of Lucille and Mark. I think Leo is flawed especially in some of his actions but overall he seems a solid guy. Bill has made mistakes but is trying his best to make things right. Erica has to deal with the hand she has been dealt and is making the best of things. Violet is very intense and loving and wants to please everyone. Lucille is cold and calculation which feeds into later storylines.

[[deleted user]]

As others have mentioned I really wish the art work described was real as I really want to see it, Bill's work that is, I don't actually want to see Giles' work.

Unlike others I enjoyed section 3 which dealt with Mark and how he grows and develops (view spoiler)[What do you think Lucille did to him in that week to make him perfect? I personally blame Lucille for how Mark turns out I think it could have a genetic link and she is certainly portrayed in the same way but less extreme. Mark's behaviour ties in with the fact that Violet is researching mental illness and hysteria so for me it was not a departure from the first 2 sections but a natural extension of them. The fact that Mark has been a pathological liar since childhood also connects section 3 to the earlier story. (hide spoiler)]

[[deleted user]]

This was a 5 star read for me.

This novel deals with love in various different forms from friendship to parental love, unrequited to unconditional love and various shades in between.

It looks at grief and how people need to adapt to survive after a tragic event and how some people are drawn together by shared pain while others are pulled apart.

It also examines the relationships people have with art and the leeway that artists are given that those in a non artistic profession would not be given.

The descriptions of works of art are amazing and I really wish I could actually see them.

It also provides a critique on mental illness and how society reacts to those who are different, it looks at this from a historical perspective in terms of asylums and the modern attitude of rehabilitation into society.

[Kelly_Hunsaker_reads]

Jen wrote: "Question for those who have either finished the book or have made it past the first 10 pages of section 2... [spoilers removed]"

Suicide is one I struggle with. My son has made 4 attempts ... keeping him alive for two years was almost impossible. We also lost two of my cousins and my BIL to suicide. Depression is nasty!

[Kelly_Hunsaker_reads]

Dree wrote: "I do not read novels featuring [spoiler] violence against/death of children [/spoiler] or extreme violence. I am not a fan of war novels either. I can and occasionally do read memoirs about these t..."

The bracket you need to use is this one: <,
not this one: [

[Dree]

So a lesser than, not a bracket? So confusing.

Edit: yes, that worked. I am on my computer now, and the spoiler thing doesn't show on my phone (it always says "hide spoiler" and there is no way to view it). And when I post from my phone, I cannot see my own post.

Kelly wrote: "Dree wrote: "I do not read novels featuring [spoiler] violence against/death of children [/spoiler] or extreme violence. I am not a fan of war novels either. I can and occasionally do read memoirs ..."

[Jen]

Dree wrote: "So a lesser than, not a bracket? So confusing.

Edit: yes, that worked. I am on my computer now, and the spoiler thing doesn't show on my phone (it always says "hide spoiler" and there is no way t..."

Yes, sorry. I tried putting the type of “bracket” but then it converted it to the spoiler. I guess it’s not really a bracket

[Jen]

Kelly wrote: "Jen wrote: "Question for those who have either finished the book or have made it past the first 10 pages of section 2... [spoilers removed]"

Suicide is one I struggle with. My son has made 4 attem..."

I’m very sorry to hear about your son and his struggles with depression and suicide. I can understand why you wouldn’t want to read about it in novels.

[Kristel]

Kelly wrote: "Jen wrote: "Question for those who have either finished the book or have made it past the first 10 pages of section 2... [spoilers removed]"

Suicide is one I struggle with. My son has made 4 attem..."

Yes, sorry for to hear about your son, depression is nasty.

[Diane]

My reading has really slowed this week but I am trying to catch up. Finally made it to page 200. Section two has really taken many twist and turns that I did not expect. I will attempt to answer Jen's questions and hide them correctly.

(view spoiler)[ I generally avoid books on the list about sex but I did read The Story of O which I hated so I guess I broke my own rule. I reacted to Matthew's death by crying. Did not see that coming. I am a parent of a 14 year old. I think anyone can feel the pain of losing a child. I think my age more than being a parent affects how I react to tragedies against children. (hide spoiler)].

[Kelly_Hunsaker_reads]

Thank you bookish friends. He has been much healthier for about a year and it is a relief. I feel like he is stronger and better able to take care of himself.

[Sue]

3. Love is a central theme in the book and its importance is reflected in the title. What forms of love are you finding in the book so far?

There is the love between spouses, between parent and child, between friends, between best friends, between men, between women. There is love of self, love of art, love of literature, love of love, love of grief.

[Kristel]

3. Love is a central theme in the book and its importance is reflected in the title. What forms of love are you finding in the book so far?

To me the book is not about Love but about “loved”. It’s about the loss or past tense of love. Leo is our protagonist and he has lost the love of his primary family. Then he loses the love of his immediate family, friendships, etc. So to me it is not so much about love but about the loss of love and maybe the stages of aging and how love changes as we move along in life. But I agree that the book looks at love in many aspects.

oh, and I thought of one more, Leo’s eyesight. Leo loses some of his eyesight. This is one of my fears. Sight is the vehicle for so many of my other loves.

[Sue]

4. What are some examples of types of love you have experienced in your own life?"

My first loves were my parents, siblings, aunts and uncles, cousins, childhood friends, church family. I had a brief experience of spousal love. It didn't last. The hardest love and the most fleeting is love of myself. I strive for this every day, as do we all. If anyone has a pet, you can relate to this. My easiest love is with my cat.

[Kristel]

I hope this is okay; I want to add a question I have been thinking about. It probably belongs early in this discussion.

Leo and Erica when they first met and married used to TALK all the time. Then after she leaves, she forbids him to call to talk to him and insists that they only communicate by letter writing. Why?

[Kristel]

1. What are your expectations for this book? Have you read any others by this author? What did you think?

I had heard some people comment favorably of this book so I went into it expecting to like it. I did like it and it is subjects I like. I like books about art, I live books about grief and loss and aging and this had all of that. And I liked the Minnesota ties and the ties to mental illness.

2. The book opens with a painting and the emotions it elicited in both the subject of the painting and the observer - passion, love, etc. Is there a painting that has elicited strong emotions, questions, or memories for you? Post a photo/or link to that painting and let us know what kind of impact it had on you.

Already commented on this. I loved how the author made the art so real, even when I didn't like the subject it still was very interesting.

3. Love is a central theme in the book and its importance is reflected in the title. What forms of love are you finding in the book so far?

There is all kinds of love but for me it was about love and how it changes over a life span. "every story we tell about ourselves can only be told in the past tense". pg 364.

4. What are some examples of types of love you have experienced in your own life?"
I have enjoyed the love of my grandparents, an important love, IMO, and therefore I try to be that for my granddaughters. I have experienced the love of dating/spouse. The love of parents in my later years and caring for them in the end stage of life. I've enjoyed the love of my children, they have not always been easy but they have grown into find children who have been so loving and kind to me.

5. Why do you think that Bill titled the painting Self-Portrait? What clues does that give to us about what kind of story might be developing? We have the shadow which speaks of the distance of the viewer but also the shoe showing "leaving". The taxi which also is another symbol of leaving. I really liked this as a set up for the story. Great originality.

6. What do you think of the characters? Who do you like, dislike, identify with/relate to, feel lack of connection to? Do you know anyone like any of these characters? I thought the characters were all really well developed. Even the secondary characters were great. Loved the pictures of mental illness that the author captures. I rated it 4. 25 but that really feels too low.

[Kelly_Hunsaker_reads]

Kristel wrote: "I hope this is okay; I want to add a question I have been thinking about. It probably belongs early in this discussion.

Leo and Erica when they first met and married used to TALK all the time. The..."

For me, I thought it was fear. She was afraid that if they spoke she would miss him more and might even return. She knew that if she went back she would be mired in the place where Matthew lived. She would see his room everyday. She would feel his presence more tangibly.

[Sue]

Characters: my favorite is Leo. He's just so damn human! And then I like Violet. She is complicated but simple, warm, passionate. Everyone seems to be drawn to her.

This book is fascinating. While it is a novel and is fiction, it reads like a memoir. I love this book and the warm, wonderful feeling it gives me.

[Pip]

I have come late to the questions.

2. The book opens with a painting and the emotions it elicited in both the subject of the painting and the observer - passion, love, etc. Is there a painting that has elicited strong emotions, questions, or memories for you? Post a photo/or link to that painting and let us know what kind of impact it had on you.
When I was a student I had a print of Andrew Wyeth's "Christina"s World" I had borrowed from the library. It depicts longing and isolation and it mirrored something of how I felt at the time. (Sorry, no link, I also am challenged to do stuff like that!)

3. Love is a central theme in the book and its importance is reflected in the title. What forms of love are you finding in the book so far?
There is the erotic love of Bill and Violet, the parental love for the two M's, the platonic love the two men share and the unrequited love Leo has for Violet.
4. What are some examples of types of love you have experienced in your own life?"
My mantra has been "everyone should have a grand passion", having had one of my own; I have also experienced parental love and platonic love but I think I have by-passed unrequited love - although I could apply that label to one of my grandsons!
5. Why do you think that Bill titled the painting Self-Portrait? What clues does that give to us about what kind of story might be developing?
Bill was falling in love with Violet, though at the time he painted this work he was committed to staying with the uptight Lucille, who is, presumably the shadowy woman leaving the canvas. So he is representing his predicament with two women in his life. The bruise he paints on Violet's thigh is erotic for Leo, whose wife Erica is fascinated by the painting too, thinking it dream-like. All five of these people are integral to the novel as it develops.
6. What do you think of the characters? Who do you like, dislike, identify with/relate to, feel lack of connection to? Do you know anyone like any of these characters?
I love their milieu - an intellectual New York - and I can identify in part with all of them - but they are complicated beings and each have flaws which makes them unlikeable at times. I don't have any friends who are writers, painters, art historians or poets. That is why I am drawn to the settings so much.