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Orfeo - Whole Book - No Spoilers (Dec 2017)
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Neil
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Dec 01, 2017 01:07AM
Here we will be discussing Orfeo by Richard Powers. The book has no chapters, so we will not be splitting it into sections to discuss. In this discussion we will discuss the whole book but without spoilers i.e. general topics raised that we can discuss without giving away the story. I will create another discussion that will be for comments that require spoilers. Please post general comments here and contribute to the general discussion. If you want to post comments with spoilers, please use the other discussion.
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Here are some reviews to get things started. I know opinions on reading reviews prior to reading a book vary, but I have chosen to post these links in the "No Spoilers" discussion even though some of them discuss plot etc.. If you want to avoid any hint of a spoiler, skip these until you have finished the book.https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/bo...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/bo...
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ent...
https://www.npr.org/2014/01/22/262483...
There is a lot of music in Orfeo. For fun, here is my list of pieces of music I came across. If you see others, let's add them in.Mozart - Jupiter (Symphony 41) - esp. Finale
Mahler - Kindertotenlieder
Schumann - Scenes from childhood
Beethoven - 3rd Symphony (Eroica)
Schubert - Symphony No. 8 (Unfinished)
Chuck Berry - Maybelline
The Penguins - Earth Angel
Bill Haley - Rock around the clock
The Platters - The great pretender
Elvis Presley - Blue Suede Shoes
Zemlinsky - Clarinet Trio
Alban Berg - Violin Concerto
Mozart - G Major Piano Concerto (K.453, not K.543 as in the book!)
Bob Dylan - Desolation Row
J S Bach - Well Tempered Clavier (Gould)
Messiaen - Quartet for the End Of Time
The Byrds - Eight Miles High
Ligeti - Requiem
Cage - HPSCHD
Anthrax
Crumb - Black Angels
Rochberg - 3rd String Quartet
Stravinsky - Firebird Suite
J S Bach - El Resurrexit
Shostakovich - 5th Symphony
Shostakovich - Lady Macbeth Of The Mtensk District
Meyerbeer - Le prophete
Bartok - Concerto for Orchestra
Chopin - Vision
Nirvana - Smells Like Teen Spirit
Faure - Elegy
I believe the Internet may contain a copy of a "soundtrack". My personal musical revelation reading this book was the "Quartet for the End of Time" (I listened to most pieces when I cam across them - most are available on YouTube).
Here are some questions you might like to think about during or after your reading.1. Why does Powers name his book after the myth of Orpheus?
2. Powers explicitly makes his book a “post-9/11” book (Pg 1 : “in the tenth year of the altered world”). How relevant is its message to both America and the world today (6 years after the book is set, 3 after it was published)? Consider the over-reaching government and the gullible press as presented in the book.
3. Like a true Symphony, the book can be seen as four movements, one for each of the key people in Els’s life (Clara, Maddy, Bonner and Sara). Which of these four characters attracts you most and why? Please be careful of spoilers here. I may have put this question in the wrong discussion and I will move it if it is hard to talk about this without spoilers.
4. How do you see the links Powers makes between music and politics? For example, Messiaen writing Quartet for the End Of Time in a POW camp, Shostakovich and his relationship to Stalin’s regime. A quote from the book: “I wanted to believe that music was the way out of all politics. But it’s only another way in.” Or: “Once, when he was young, Els had believed that music could save a person’s life. He could think of nothing now but all the ways it might get a person killed.”
5. How do you respond to Powers’ thoughts on the role of music and other arts in society and culture?
Mod
This sounds like so much fun, Neil! I'm picking up my copy tomorrow, and hope to read it through the month. I like the way you've split the threads here, so we can participate while reading.I didn't realize it didn't have chapters--I just finished Mrs. Dalloway and that aspect wore on me a little. But your list of the music we can expect more than makes up for that! Excited to start!
Mod
General Discussion - no spoilers
Comment as you read
General Discussion - spoilers allowed
Kathleen wrote: "This sounds like so much fun, Neil! I'm picking up my copy tomorrow, and hope to read it through the month. I like the way you've split the threads here, so we can participate while reading.I did..."
Kathleen, there are no chapters, but the narrative does pause every few pages for a strange message to appear. You learn what those interjections are towards the end of the book, but they also serve as convenient stopping places unless you plan to read the book in one go (unlikely, I would imagine!).
I am fascinated by Els combination of talents - music and chemistry... a very interesting coupling.I also found this amazing graphical composition of the 4th movement of Jupiter on YouTube, and it seemed very appropriate for the type of visualizations Els was having -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiX3z...
I recently read Thomas Mann's Doctor Faustus, which if you've read it you know it is a 500+ page treatise on classical music, and Mann uses most of those pages to describe classical pieces note for note. It is a grueling task for those of us who have no classical background, and takes quite a commitment to stick with it. Luckily, it's Mann who is writing it, and his writing is superb.
I have mixed emotions about this book and this author's approach - I'm not sure I want to put myself through such a similar experience again... so I am kind of skimming the musical sections. Luckily, there are (so far) enough sections where a storyline exists to keep me interested.
What a fascinating video! It is compulsive viewing, isn’t it? I like the way it highlights things in the music for you, like seeing the main four note motif approaching.I understand the feelings about the music descriptions even if I don’t share them: I have a reasonable background in music so I can understand what he is saying. For me, the way Powers writes about music is one of the best things about the book because he writes with such knowledge and passion. I would say not to skip the passages about how some music was written. The passage describing The Quartet for the End Of Time is very powerful.
Mod
I came to Orfeo knowing quite a bit about the wilder excesses of 20th century serious music (classical just doesn't seem the right term) and found those sections both illuminating and often very amusing. Loved the parts about Messiaen's Quartet for the End of Time too.
Janice(JG) wrote: "I am fascinated by Els combination of talents - music and chemistry... a very interesting coupling.I also found this amazing graphical composition of the 4th movement of Jupiter on YouTube, and it seemed very appropriate for the type of visualizations Els was having -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiX3z...
That's an amazing video. Thank you for sharing it.
I am kind of skimming the musical sections.
Like you, I had difficulty with the musical sections. I loved the backstories he gave us for the musical pieces. I found that part fascinating. But I got lost when he described the technicalities of the composition--the notes and movements, etc. as I have no background in music theory or music composition.
So, for those who struggled with the music sections, does that detract from the book? And for those who understood those parts, does that add to the book? Or would the book be better without them?My personal view is that they add a richness to the book and I wouldn't want to lose them. I perhaps especially liked the passages that described how a piece was written. I could understand the more technical sections about how a piece was constructed, but they were perhaps of less interest to me.
Neil wrote: "So, for those who struggled with the music sections, does that detract from the book? And for those who understood those parts, does that add to the book? Or would the book be better without them?..."
Personally, I think some aspects of the music sections do detract from the book. I enjoyed the passages that described the circumstances that gave rise to a piece of music. Those sections enhanced the book. But the very technical sections were completely lost on me and after initially struggling to understand them, I just skipped over them. To be honest, I thought the technical descriptions were self-indulgent--a venue for him to display his extensive knowledge of music composition.
I can understand how individuals with a background in music would appreciate the technical sections. But I think the novel would have been better served if he had omitted the very technical sections and perhaps put them in a non-fiction book about music composition.
Thems my thoughts.
Mod
I'm about 100 pages in now, and finding it so compelling. I can't imagine the story without the music. Some of that part goes over my head, but what resonates is the love of music, how that colors the way you look at everything, and that part I can relate to.And I loved reading about the childhood of a music-lover. I don't remember ever meeting a character like this in fiction, but it rings very true and reveals the parallel "other world" that musicians have going on.
I'm also really enjoying the timeframe, and the daily life of this 70 year old single man. Not enough of them in fiction either! :-) So yeah, I'm loving this read.
I'm a 72 year old music lover who has made limited effort to enjoy 20th/21st century music, even though living in LA I have access to live performances and a string of new music friendly LA Phil conductors. But Richard Powers always sucks me in. Highly recommend YouTube for performances of Quartet for the End of Time - Tashi Quartet version - also Proverb by Steve Reich and this that and the other of composers referenced. Try it. It's ear and mind opening
Maggie - thanks for this. Music is such a dominating factor in Orfeo and it's fascinating to follow up on some of the pieces Powers references.For me, the book was also a lot about politics and is possibly even more relevant in today's situation than it was three years ago when it was released. What do people make of Powers' views on government interference in people's lives and on the scaremongering by the media?
I happen to be at a part right now where he's making some excellent points about that. I like how he's showing how difficult it is to have what are considered unusual hobbies. The unusual is suspect now, which is a dangerous trend I think.
Do you think Peter’s reaction (to go on the run) is believable?It is fairly quiet on here. Who is reading the book and how are you getting on with it?
Was Peter's decision to run believable? Believable - yes. Seems to me it is the key to the book's structure. I believe that Peter thought he should run because there was little downside to him to do so. He was alone; he had just lost his companion (the dog).
I should admit that I wasn’t asking the question because I didn’t believe - I love this book! But it did occur to me that some people might wonder why he didn’t hand himself in. Like you say, it is key to the whole book, really, so it has to be believable for the book to work.
LindaJ^ wrote: "Was Peter's decision to run believable? Believable - yes. Seems to me it is the key to the book's structure. I believe that Peter thought he should run because there was little downside to him to d..."I also think living in a post 9/11 world had a lot to do with his decision to run.
Neil, I share your love of this book. I'm not done yet, but will be soon, and there's lots to talk about!Good question about his decision to run. It seems to be tied to many of the things in this novel, including the structure (and he often describes music by the way it moves/travels). He doesn't seem to be a "settled" guy--still searching. And definitely there's the post 9/11 paranoia.
What I loved was how the author made it believable. What else was he going to do? (view spoiler)>
Neil wrote: "There is a lot of music in Orfeo. For fun, here is my list of pieces of music I came across. If you see others, let's add them in.Mozart - Jupiter (Symphony 41) - esp. Finale
Mahler - Kindertoten..."
Thanks for the list!
I have put Orfeo to the side, the holidays and my reading schedule are far too overtaxed, plus I just don't feel too fired up about this reading. However, these comments are so positive, I will definitely pick the book up sometime after the new year, and return here for more discussion.
carissa wrote: "okay...I intentionally read nothing about this book before beginning..and holy h! I don't want to search online and spoil the reading experience for myself, so I'll ask here...does anyone know is t..."Hi Carissa. Powers has written 11 novels so far, of which I have read 11. He has a new one coming out next year. His writing definitely has a style of his own but, as far as my background reading has shown, he does not suffer from synethesia or anything similar. But I can see where your question comes from. When writing about music in particular, but also in other areas, Powers sees things differently to most of us and is able to write down what he sees.
Do you have any specific examples of passages you've read that made you ask this question? It would be interesting to get other people's views on the way Powers writes.
carissa, those are very interesting points. As I say, I haven’t seen anything that says Powers has this condition or any like it, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t! I hadn’t thought about it until you raised it, but I plan to re-read all of Powers over the next months and I will do so with this in mind!
Entertainment Weekly said “Powers’ writing is complex and heady without being headachy, and his synesthetic descriptions of finding melodies in the mundane are full of their own kind of music.”
I love that--heady without being headachy. I agree!
This is my first Powers book. I’m coming blown away. Im particularly enjoying listening to some of the music as he mentions it
Glad you are enjoying it! Are there specific things about it that “blow you away”?
Halfway thru the book and still enthralled. Powers metaphors are sublime. I've been listening to the Musical pieces as I go along so the reading is slow, but so worth the time. How ironic and terribly sad that I was reading the part about the Kindertotenlieder on the anniversary of the Sandy Hook, CT murders. I am now a confirmed Powers fan.
Nutmegger - thanks for this. Glad you are enjoying it. Are you enjoying the story, the writing or the music most? It's always even more powerful (and sad, in this case) when books coincide with real life.
Carissa - so glad you enjoyed it. It will be fascinating to hear your comments when you have calmed down!And it’s not even Powers’ best book (in my opinion)!
Neil wrote: "Nutmegger - thanks for this. Glad you are enjoying it. Are you enjoying the story, the writing or the music most? It's always even more powerful (and sad, in this case) when books coincide with rea..."I'm enjoying every bit of it. The story is captivating. Els life is absorbing. The writing is sublime. His descriptions are unique and refreshing. Just one example is "his eyes like outer planets". The music has been thrilling. He has introduced me to new works. I'm going to have to reread the book in order to absorb everything.
carissa - thanks for these comments - very interesting.I think I was considering the "over-reaching government" in the context of the initial invasion of Els' house and the pervading atmosphere of paranoia that caused that. Today, 3 years after Powers published this book and 6 years after it is set, it seems that this paranoia is going global.
Thanks for your comments about the 4 characters Els interacts with. Great summaries, I think.
For those in the UK with access to Sky Arts, there is a documentary this evening (Jan 24) about music that was written in POW camps in WWII. I don’t know if Messiaen will feature, but it sounds interesting.
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Orfeo (other topics)Doctor Faustus (other topics)
