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12/2017 The Sound of Waves, by Yukio Mishima
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Nov 25, 2017 01:50PM
This thread is for discussing our December selection, The Sound of Waves by Yukio Mishima.
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Was chatting with a Japanese friend who read this long ago and realized it's connected to the Mie pearl divers... looking even more forward to this now!!
P20. After finishing the epic of last month, this short little work will be interesting. Can a 200p book Beas good as a 600p book? Thus far, love is in the air.
P44. It doesn't appear a hopeless love from the get-go. Apart from her father's money, Hatsue doesn't seem to be in a different social class than Shinji. She works on the docks pulling in boats, and trained as a shell diver like Shinji's mother.The Japanese term Ama (sea-woman) doesn't especially translate to pearl diver or shell diver or whatever, but we've gotta say something in English. I've often wondered if this is related to the derogatory term Ama (and if this meant people seriously looked down on shell divers), but looking it up the derogatory term is derived from the Ama meaning nun.
Ama can also mean amateur, and was the original name of the disgraced sumo Yokozuna who is in Japanese news everyday recently. (If you don't know, he was pushed to retire after beating an underling with a glass beer bottle)
It being a short novel, I've finished already. The good points are the scenic descriptions, and the life of rural fishermen and women. The love story, not so much. It's neither particularly novel nor exciting.I think what I enjoy most from Mishima's novels are characters and mindsets I completely disagree with, like in Runaway Horses or The Sailor who Fell From Grace with the Sea. Like Mishima's crafted media image, they're outlooks on life I would never consider or want for myself, but entertain me in a scandalous way. The Sound of Waves just didn't have that kind of appeal.
I found a 1956 review from the New York Times. It was the first Mishima novel to be translated into English:http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/10/25...
I finished the book yesterday. I sort of liked it (Loved Confessions of a Mask), but how do I put it? Something really rubs me the wrong way about the way Mishima writes women. Or maybe it was less how he wrote the women, and more the narration surrounding the female characters? Like that scene with Yasuo and Hatsue, in which it's more depicted "Oh she just didn't know how beautiful she was" and I was like: "Wait, what?????" Did I misread that part?
Josh wrote: "Was chatting with a Japanese friend who read this long ago and realized it's connected to the Mie pearl divers... looking even more forward to this now!!"Was mistaken about the Pearl Diver part, just divers here.
Just Finished. I liked it reasonably well, though it comes across as far less important than other Mishima books. I think it's a common interpretation that this is Mishima showing a perfect world in his view. Old Japan, where strength and get up and go, peppered with a little bit of prayer and thankfulness, get you all your desires. (or for women, keeping your purity, praying and respecting your father). Following from that, this is Mishima at his hopeful stage, before falling further and further into cynicism in later works, and leading to his final theories and life choices.
I'm also working on a theory that along with that, Utajima represents Japan and the rest of Japan is the world at large, and a world full o danger, temptation, and without a view compared to that from the lighthouse. (If I can put that all together I'll write it up on my blog).
I believe this group has read the first 3 of YM's final 4 books and assume that the 4th will be scheduled for later. I've yet to tackle those, but plan to make it a small goal to get to them in time to join in.
Alright, see above that I rated this book four stars? It’s important that I stress that I really enjoyed this book, because it’s going to sound like I don’t for a bit.This book may win an award from me. The most interesting book with the least interesting cast of characters I’ve ever read. Seriously, I didn’t have any strong feelings about what happened to anyone. I wasn’t engrossed in anyone’s story or what they were going to do next. In fact, the two most interesting characters to me (and the two who provided the most interesting scenes) were the younger brother and Hatsue’s father. The little brother had the great scene after he comes back from his trip where he can’t put into words the world outside their island and tries to express the inexpressible to them. Hatsue’s father also seems to have some of the most complex emotions presented in the book in just the few scenes he’s in. There’s the amusing scene in the bath which demonstrates his concern for his daughter, yet despite his seemingly unchangeable spirit, he still gives Shinji a chance to prove himself. I honestly wish we would have gotten more from him, as he was not your usual father keeping his daughter away from her one true love sort of villain, but more complex.
Everyone else… meh.
The plot did nothing for me, our leads were bland and I found myself occasionally wishing the plot would resolve itself so I could get back to what I was enjoying… the life of those on the island. By that, I mean the everyday goings on. The descriptions of the island, the people who inhabited it, the culture, their dreams and history. All of that was fascinating and I found myself getting lost in the descriptions… until that pesky plot kicked back in.
I exaggerate my dislike of the plot, it’s not awful by any means, but compared to the beauty shown of life on the island, it feels… disjointed, as if an amazing author was forced to tell the story of two lovesick teens.
I gave the book four stars as I think it is a genuinely beautifully written book. While I read the English translation, and thus cannot tell the accuracy of the prose, I will say it's some of the most stunning glimpses of scenery and everyday life I've ever read.
I should note that I have not read any of Mishima’s other books. I don’t know if they are all like this, or if this is unique in his bibliography. I’m interested enough to certainly give him another try though.
Also, I need to bring up this quote. It happens shortly before Shinji was supposed to meet up with Hatsune (before her father interrupted). Shinji is wondering what Hatsune’s solution will be, and if she’s considering suicide. “But the boy’s good sense repudiated the thought, and he told himself that those others had been selfish persons who thought only of themselves.”
I find this quote rather interesting given what would happen to the author. I don’t know if this is something that was lost in translation, or if he just considered the dual suicide of two lovers selfish or if something changed along the way (or if his character had a completely different point of view from his own) but it seemed worthy of note.
Tim wrote: "Alright, see above that I rated this book four stars? It’s important that I stress that I really enjoyed this book, because it’s going to sound like I don’t for a bit.This book may win an award f..."
The suicide point is interesting. I think Mishima is being reasonabliy genuine here, and that he feels that the hard work of the characters is done so for the benefit of the group, and to stop doing that work by choosing to die, is a selfish act. I think that possibly Mishima justified his suicide in 2 ways.
1. He felt that the reaction he received when attempting to begin his coup meant that the Japan he loved, the one surviving in his mind on Utajima, was died. Therefore, he no longer owed this image anything anymore.
2. Possibly he also felt that by completing his tetralogy he had given everything that he had, and had completed his service to the group.
I have read a good deal about Mishima. There's a reasonably new biography clocking in at about 800 plus pages that I hope to get my hands on soon. At that length one would hope it contains a few good explanations concerning these points.
Man, I don't know how I missed the irony of the suicide passage. Those are really good answers Josh.
Excellent answers Josh! I really appreciate your insight into Mishima (having not read his other work at all, I don't know what philosophies change or stay intact as time goes on). On your own thoughts posted in your blog, I actually agree with the cynical take. I also noticed that everything bad comes from outside of the island, down to when the kids start fighting and we are introduced to the town's gossip, it is during a game of "Cowboys and Indians". Mishima is certainly making a point with the perfection of this isolated island, almost outside of time.This is slightly off topic, but as others here have read more Mishima than I, I do have a question. I'm interested in reading more of his work, and at a brief glance I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on The Temple of the Golden Pavilion or The Sailor Who Fell From the Grace of the Sea? Which would be a better follow up to this (or if another book would be a better read)?
Both of those are good choices. I think Temple of the Golden Pavilion was the first Mishima I read.As to suicide, I doubt anything in Sound of the Waves can be related to Mishima's eventual suicide because it was written so early in his career.
Mishima's suicide was designed to make him a martyr for a cause. In that it failed, because he wasn't treated as a martyr. The precursors of his thoughts on suicide can be seen in his appreciation of martyrdom art, his desire to die young, and in his willingness to give his life for the emperor. How much of this was genuine, and how much of this was his carefully crafted media image? His self-portrayal is as much as a part of his art as his novels are. In the end, did he give in to an image of his own creation, or did he believe it all along?
Personally, Tim, while I liked Temple of the Golden Pavilion a lot, my absolute favorite Mishima book (not that I've read a lot of his. Really need to dig into that tetraology) is Confessions of a Mask. It's an unpleasant book, but it gives an interesting view. I actually realized I read it in 2015. Maybe it's time for me to reread it soon.I don't recommend this book (pamphlet), because I hated it, but Patriotism gives an interesting view into Mishima's mindset as well.
I finished the book, and my take is quite similar with you all. I enjoyed the atmosphere of the island and its inhabitants, and thought the love story was a bit weak. But it makes sense if it's written early in Mishima's career, and it makes even more sense if this is his first book translated into English, because it's just so... safe. It's a simple love story with the backdrop of Japan. It's short and exotic. What's not to like? ;)
Josh wrote: "...I believe this group has read the first 3 of YM's final 4 books and assume that the 4th will be scheduled for later. I've yet to tackle those, but plan to make it a small goal to get to them in time to join in. "Thanks for bringing this up Josh! In the previous years we tend to do it around May so that's what I have in mind too for the last book in the tetralogy. I will start a thread closer to the time to remind people, and those who want to tackle the whole 4 books would be very much welcome.
Candace wrote: "I rated the novel three stars. I know this may cause some consternation, and let me explain. The writing is jewel like, however, the characters remained remote. Personally, I think this distance is deliberate, with the author protecting the lovers from harm by encircling them with the island. So my criticism shouldn't carry much weight, because what I wanted is besides the point of the author's intentions. "I'm not saying this just because I also rated the book 3 stars, but this is GR. As I see it, you could take the weird rating system two ways:
1. Negativity is discouraged.
or
2. It's your own personal rating and you are not objectively rating a book.
I personally think it's the latter, even if I struggle with rating a book 2 stars because that looks like it was terrible when I know on GR it means it was "merely okay".
So while I am not a GR cop, I think you have good reasons for rating the book the way you did (and honestly if you were in a creative writing circle, I think the character point would be a good one to advise an author on), and don't need to worry about rating it three stars. It's fine to dislike books, it's fine to like books, it's fine to feel iffy on books, it's fine to feel wishy-washy on books. I think we just have to keep in mind that not every book is for every person.
I'd like to second Rhea.There's nothing wrong with giving a book three stars. GR considers that a mildly positive rating.
I’ll agree with Rhea and Bill! I gave this one four stars as the positive far outwayed the negative for me (despite my criticisms). I personally consider 3 stars to be a positive (if on the light side) review and thus worth a read unless the reviewer stresses that their rating system is different.
Kind of taking it from another side, I wonder whether we're just a bunch of cynical grown-ups (please take that in a nice way), but I found the depiction of the teenagers love believable and quite accurate - the awkwardness, the drama, the vague respect of existing beliefs and societal systems, the lack of control. I had a glimpse of the word 'suicide' prior to reading, and at the beginning I thought it'd go dark ala latter Mishima, but it's not that kind of book and I think that's okay. It's smaller in scope, a bit sweet, and it doesn't pretend to be otherwise. As a sign of how small, the suicide here was touched when Chiyoko's mum was worried about her daughter committing suicide for such trivial matter. Trivial for her, yes (or for us), but one may forget problems are so exaggerated when you're much younger like Chiyoko, Shinji, and Hatsue.
So this book was published in 1954 when Mishima was 29. I'm curious about when he wrote this, because it felt written by someone who had not left teenage-hood for very long.
I was reading YM's biography, and considering his sickly and controlled childhood it's possible he was still quite young, even at 29... and that all that happened later was connected to staying sweet a bit too long. I haven't read his earlier works yet though... maybe it's just true that sweet romantics often flip when the world kills their romance once too often, and that flip makes them even more cynical and angry than people who never were romantic.
Candace wrote: "Dioni (Bookie Mee) wrote: "Kind of taking it from another side, I wonder whether we're just a bunch of cynical grown-ups (please take that in a nice way), but I found the depiction of the teenagers..."True that.
Josh wrote: "I was reading YM's biography, and considering his sickly and controlled childhood it's possible he was still quite young, even at 29... and that all that happened later was connected to staying swe..."Interesting info about his life. Me too I haven't read his earlier works. So looking at wiki, by the order of publication, just taking his most famous books (translated to English):
Confessions of a Mask
Forbidden Colors
The Sound of Waves *
The Temple of Golden Pavillion
After the Banquet
The Sailor Who Fell from Grace with the Sea
The Sea of Fertility tetralogy *
(I've only read those marked with stars)
Bearing in mind the order of publication may not reflect the time of writing, especially at the beginning of an author's career, I do wonder if you're to read them in order, whether you'd recognise an obvious "flip" when he goes darker and more cynical. I'm curious about this and would be interested to read Confessions of a Mask and The Temple of Golden Pavillion for my next Mishima (when I get to them, and after finishing the tetralogy).
Candace wrote: "This recalls a quote from Jeff Bridges the actor: "I have kind of a theory I'm not sure is absolutely true, but I think that most people who are cynics are really crushed romantics: they've been hurt, they're sensitive, and their cynicism is like a shell that's protecting this tiny, dear part in them that's still alive."I like that, hehe.
I guess yes, this book could fall under YA category, though I dislike that label.
I love YA fiction, and that hadn't occurred to me. Yeah, I can see the logic of shelving this as YA.I don't really mind the term "Young Adult" most of the time, because it's a target audience (not that I have a clue who Mishima was targeting in this case, but probably not teenagers), but audiences can be inclusive. I think Young Adult is well known to be read among adults too. I don't think there's any shame in it, I say as a shameless Young Adult reader.
I feel like the forbidden romance thing would really sell people, though I feel like the language is very different even for third person YA books I read. I could see it be a start for Mishima books in a way for a teenager, but this is like my fourth, so there might be a better starting point. (I'm trying to analyze, but I think this comes across a bit cynical).
I wonder if reaction to YA is really age based. I'd guess, anyone about 40 or over and anyone about 30 or younger can't really understand the others frame of mind. In my experience, the younger grew up, and became grown up with the idea that YA could be respectable, whereas the older group grew up with the idea that YA was something you passed through. For me, YA was below me as a Lit major, and watching adults read Harry Potter was indicative of... well, let's just say, I've softened my opinion at least a bit, but still would never read YA unless a YA was in earshot of my voice as I read it to them.
To be fair, when us 'olders' grew up there was no word YA :)I see no problem with reading fiction written for younger audiences.
As to whether this is a YA novel, Japan is explicit in their categories, denoting things as shounen, shoujo, seinen, josei, etc. You'd just have to look at the first imprint of Sound of Waves to find that out, though I don't know where to find that information.
Well that was a short one. I'm not gonna lie, I absolutely loved it. I was constantly expecting the story to turn into a tragedy and it didn't! What's this new post-contemporary style where things turn out well?I can understand how some wouldn't like this kind of perfect story though. A happy conclusion edges toward sounding like a moral lesson. I'm not really suprised that some found ways to analyze it in a somewhat negative light (as the island representing Japan... thus promoting isolationism). I mean I agree it's a good point, but it does make it sounds like we can't enjoy a happy story. So I guess I'm just saying I agree with Dioni's "I wonder whether we're just a bunch of cynical grown-ups". @Dioni: do you give me permission to use this on a wall poster?
I really liked the prose too: there's a nice balance between description and action, the depictions of the island and its inhabitants are evocative, and the young couple's awakening attraction and struggles felt realistic to me. While sharing the telescope: "They felt their cheeks so close together that they could touch at any moment, felt too the flaming heat of each other's cheeks." *is a sucker for romance*. I would argue that even the way they first meet and fall for each other is realistic enough, involving more chance than thought (of which - we are constantly reminded - Shinji is devoid)
I don't think it's much of a YA novel, but I never understood what that "genre" was about to start with. Isn't it the same as Bildungsroman? Or really just about the age range of potential buyers? That would make it a very shallow and useless designation... just like shounen, shoujo etc. as Bill said. It never made sense to me and I almost always prefer "girls" anime (despite not being a huge fan of anime to start with). Boys stuff is mostly about robots, fights or fights of robots. ???
Christian wrote: "So I guess I'm just saying I agree with Dioni's "I wonder whether we're just a bunch of cynical grown-ups". @Dioni: do you give me permission to use this on a wall poster?"Lol I don't mind having that for a t-shirt xD
It's great reading your very positive reaction, Christian!
Regarding YA, I guess I'm one of the 'old' generation, so I stay far away from it. Though I did like Harry Potter. I do however love classic children literature if you're talking about things written for younger audiences (i.e. Winnie the Pooh, Peter Pan, Alice, etc). But something about YA just grates me the wrong way. Maybe it doesn't help that a lot of the recent ones seem dystopian, and that's not a 'genre' I'm into generally.
Candace wrote: "As for YA, I didn't mean it was or should be a YA novel. What I had in mind was it would be accessible to teens, say in school as assigned reading rather than some of the books I was asked to read in school. And as inspiration for and example of beautiful, lucid prose. For a brief time I was an undergraduate instructor, and tried to see, with varying success, through their young eyes."I absolutely agree Candace. It's a good introduction to 'world literature' too or 'translated fiction' for people looking for an entry, in my opinion.
Candace wrote: "As for YA, I didn't mean it was or should be a YA novel. What I had in mind was it would be accessible to teens, say in school as assigned reading rather than some of the books I was asked to read in school. And as inspiration for and example of beautiful, lucid prose. For a brief time I was an undergraduate instructor, and tried to see, with varying success, through their young eyes."I think I understand what you're saying. I'm trying to think back to what I liked in High School. I got to read Speak, I sort of liked that. I loved TKaM. I had to read the Great Gatsby, I hated that. I think part of the problem is, I get the impression you're supposed to think the characters are shallow and no one communicated that to me. (But that's more a slight against teaching in school). I loved reading myths in high school. I would have loved it more if I had known what I know now, the debates about homosexuality in the Iliad, that sort of thing.
I suspect -every- school assigns Romeo and Juliet as the accessible Shakespeare for the children. I think this is a mistake. One, we should see it performed, because it's a play. Two, Taming of the Shrew is better and I will fight you over it.
I mean, like I said before, I do see the forbidden romance appeal (like R&J. Which never did it for me even as a teenager but I'm different), but the reason I wonder if other Mishima books might be good isn't a slight against this one, but more that Teenagers love dark stuff. (Look at how many novels are YA dystopias. I doubt I can count them).
I almost feel what works against this is that it doesn't end in a double suicide (not saying it should have) or at the very least, it's not hopeless for longer. It's almost too practical? I don't really know how to get across what I'm saying here.
