Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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Huge issue: are there 2 contradictory creation accounts in the Bible?
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Eric wrote: "You would be surprised if I whipped, excoriated, denounced or annoyed you for the sake of getting you to "see truth" as I "see truth". .."My response: NOPE! I would hope that you would LOVE me enough to QUOTE the Word of God... according to Him, that is THE SOURCE for all sound doctrine. (2 Tim. 3:16-17)
Robert wrote: "It is never unloving to stand for God and defend God's Torah..."I contend for ALL the Word of God... NOT just the first five books.
Eric wrote: "I barely know you, but I can tell a major difference is that I am seeking God's truth and you already own it..."My response: I DO! I own several copies of the Bible... GOD'S TRUTH.
Why are you seeking truth from OTHER SOURCES?
_________________________
2 Peter 1:3
According as his divine power HATH GIVEN unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness , through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
You just proved my point. Torah simply means instruction. You took it narrowly as the first five scrolls of Law attributed to Moses, without giving me the benefit of the doubt. (Be careful about rebuffing my use of "attributed" unless you can explain Moses writing after he ascended Mount Nebo.) You have a distinct inclination to immediately strain at gnats while you swallow a camel. You can continue to contend for All the Word of God. I've had as much contention as I can bear for one day. If it gives you peace, I'll concede that you are smarter and more devout than I am. See you down the track, Brother.
Eric wrote: "You just proved my point. Torah simply means instruction. ..."My response: Here is what comes up FIRST when one searches: "define: Torah"
(in Judaism) the law of God as revealed to Moses and recorded in the first five books of the Hebrew scriptures (the Pentateuch).
NO your point is NOT proven.
It is possible to quote scripture all day long and be as wrong as Satan. God gave us preachers for a reason.
Rod wrote: "It is possible to quote scripture all day long and be as wrong as Satan. God gave us preachers for a reason."
My response: Yes indeed. Satan quoted Scripture... and JESUS QUOTED IT RIGHT BACK AT him!
I will QUOTE Scripture LIKE Jesus... and you can NOT quote Scripture and rely on the weight of your OPINIONS.
What is the aversion that people have to the Bible, in a Christian group?
But Robert - we're not convinced that you ARE quoting scripture like Jesus. Maybe more like the Pharisees or even Satan or maybe the Westboro Baptists. You seem to have very little love, compassion or Joy when you do it. Maybe first impress us with your character and humility.
Rod wrote: "But Robert - we're not convinced that you ARE quoting scripture like Jesus..."My response: Where did the Pharisees QUOTE Scripture?
One thing IS FOR SURE... YOU ARE NOT QUOTING Scripture like Jesus!
Rod wrote: "But Robert - we're not convinced that you ARE quoting scripture like Jesus. Maybe more like the Pharisees or even Satan or maybe the Westboro Baptists..."My response: Very JUDGMENTAL don't you think?
1 Corinthians 4:3 - "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be JUDGED OF YOU ..."
Just giving you brotherly advice. No serious condemnation here - I just worry about you and how you affect this group.
Rod wrote: "Just giving you brotherly advice. No serious condemnation here - I just worry about you and how you affect this group."I joined this conversation largely because of Robert's posts. I was taken aback by his willful dogmatic arrogance, but now I already love it. He is a man of conviction and though he will run some people off, he also attracts (and frustrates) Christians who don't see eye-to-eye with him. It doesn't take long to accept and appreciate someone who is as genuine as Robert. And he has stepped up to moderate. I thank him for that. Hey, I met you, Rod. I can let
Rod wrote: "Just giving you brotherly advice. No serious condemnation here - I just worry about you and how you affect this group."My response: No need to worry. In a Christian group, people should RESPECT the Bible... NOT avoid it.
Eric wrote: "It doesn't take long to accept and appreciate someone who is as genuine as Robert. And he has stepped up to moderate. I thank him for that. Hey, I met you, Rod. I can let..."My response: I appreciate your comments Eric.
Except the arrogant part. To me it seems to be FAR MORE arrogant to stand upon one's opinions rather than standing upon the quoted Word of God.
We're making ground Robert. But I'm still having a little difficulty accepting your opinion of what constitutes the Word of God over my impression of what the Word of God actually says. You're a good sport, and a commendable Brother. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, knowing that He who began a good work in you will see it through to completion. We are His children, works in progress.
Eric wrote: "We're making ground Robert. But I'm still having a little difficulty accepting your opinion of what constitutes the Word of God over my impression of what the Word of God actually says..."Actually, it is pretty simple. Direct quotes are the Word of God... personal commentaries is where opinions start to come into play.
Robert wrote: "Eric wrote: "We're making ground Robert. But I'm still having a little difficulty accepting your opinion of what constitutes the Word of God over my impression of what the Word of God actually says..."I absolutely agree. I only accept direct quotes from the Old Testament in Hebrew and from the New Testament in Greek. And the Greek has to be filtered if the original autograph was Aramaic. We're starting to read from (and quote) from the same page.
Eric wrote: "Robert wrote: "Eric wrote: "We're making ground Robert. But I'm still having a little difficulty accepting your opinion of what constitutes the Word of God over my impression of what the Word of Go..."My response: Do you read Hebrew and Greek? What about the other original languages of the Bible?
Actually, direct quotes are a translation of the Word of God, as far as some are able. There's a reason I have 25 English translations in front of me. God gives us preachers and translators and theologians and Sunday school teachers.
Just YOU quoting a specific bible is no better than any Cult leader dominating his flock abusively. There's more to it than that. Strange that you haven't figured this out.
You can't just throw bible verses at people. (I laughingly see Charismatics do this daily.)
Robert wrote: "Eric wrote: "Robert wrote: "Eric wrote: "We're making ground Robert. But I'm still having a little difficulty accepting your opinion of what constitutes the Word of God over my impression of what t..."Only Hebrew and Greek, Robert. I'm not fluent, but I labor over it and spend hours researching and parsing it. How about you?
Lol. I just read this entire thread and I have to say...I like you's guys! As I see it...God is omniscient and omnipotent...and He could've inspired any manner of scripture He chose. With that in mind, I suspect that what ISN'T contained there-in serves a purpose every bit as important as what IS. What I mean is...we mankind find ourselves thrust into the midst of an amazing mystery...both in terms of spiritual realities and physical realities...and how we navigate and deal with both from the cradle to the grave is all part of the process of growth. I don't think God made a single mistake or overlooked an iota of the information He chose to impart or withhold. Even time itself (which seems to lay at the heart of much of the contention here) is not at all accurately represented by our best efforts at description, either scientifically or philosophically, else we wouldn't ponder the mystery of its initiation with such dubiety. We may claw at it and sometimes come away with something under our nails (e.g. special relativity), but we are immersed in it and subject to it and, therefore, can never perceive its fullness. Not one single sub-atomic particle, from the dawn of creation to its omega, has or will escape God's full attention. It's like some magnificent game of 40-dimensional chess. Not a single soul that chooses to relent to His will presents an unforeseen event to Our Creator...nor the death of a single baby, nor the writing of any sonnet, nor that tiny piece of shrapnel that caught Joe Hero in the femoral artery while he was a quarter-of-a-mile safely behind the lines. There is no such thing as entropy. There is merely God's will. We can stay in the safety of the boat and ride its mighty force, or we can jump out and swim against the current. Either way, the water is going where it's going and we'll all end up at the mouth of the river, though some will have been dashed against the rocks.
Anyhow, I'm pretty sure I had a relevant point when I started writing, but I think maybe you guys broke my brain. :)
But do I trust the Bible? Yes, fully.I also trust it to allow our desires to stray to our evil hearts content.
Yep, a game of 40 dimensional Chess indeed. Nobody said it was easy. Jesus told parables so that many Wouldn't understand.
Rod wrote: "Actually, direct quotes are a translation of the Word of God, as far as some are able. There's a reason I have 25 English translations in front of me..."My response: So you do NOT believe that God PRESERVED His Word.
(I use BibleGateway, which has more than 50 English translations. It is amazing how much of the time good scholars translated God's PRESERVED words... THE SAME! Yes, there are definitely differences... in those cases I stick with the formal translations.)
Eric wrote: "Only Hebrew and Greek, Robert. I'm not fluent, but I labor over it and spend hours researching and parsing it. How about you?..."I have studied Hebrew and Greek a little. But I am in no way a scholar and rely on genuine Bible scholars when needed. I am blessed to have friends I went to Bible school with, who went on to become real scholars.
Adam wrote: "Lol. I just read this entire thread and I have to say...I like you's guys! As I see it...God is omniscient and omnipotent...and He could've inspired any manner of scripture He chose. With that in m..."My response: Glad to have you aboard Adam.
Some people in this group QUESTION whether God is OMNISCIENT.
If one person says that God does NOT know EVERYTHING...
...and another says God DOES know EVERYTHING...
...are those two people describing DIFFERENT GODS?
How many
DAYS
did Moses believe it took God to create everything?Exodus 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day , to keep it holy.
9 Six DAYS shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh DAY is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six DAYS the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh DAY : wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Rod wrote: "But do I trust the Bible? Yes, fully.I also trust it to allow our desires to stray to our evil hearts content."
Yes! Thanks for putting it so succinctly. That's pretty much what I was trying to say before I wandered off and got lost in the weeds.
Robert wrote: "If one person says that God does NOT know EVERYTHING......and another says God DOES know EVERYTHING...
...are those two people describing DIFFERENT GODS?"
Well, we're all coming to know God and I'm certain that every last one of us has misconceptions about His nature, but those don't intrinsically mean that our prayers shoot wide of Him or are aimed at the wrong God. Some misconceptions ARE deal-breakers and some are not. For example, some of the Gnostics turned the entire creation account on its head, asserting that Satan was the true creator and that Yahweh was a created being, and that He grew jealous of Satan and so, has sought our worship and subservience in rebellion. Clearly, that is a misconception that cannot be reconciled with Yahweh, as we worship Him. As for omniscience, I obviously believe that to be one of God's fundamental attributes, but if someone else doesn't, I'd have to hear their case and to see if it were based on some technical and nuanced misunderstanding of the nature of time and knowledge, of if it meant a complete rewriting of the scripture to them. Considering that I was a self-described agnostic only a little over a year ago, I try to hear people out and help them to understanding. Usually it's a futile effort, but we never know when we're sewing seeds that may bloom at some later time. :)
Adam wrote: " I try to hear people out and help them to understanding. Usually it's a futile effort, but we never know when we're sewing seeds that may bloom at some later time. :)..."My response: I have a different approach with those who call themselves Christians...
...I QUOTE the Bible and watch their response to the Word of God...
That says A LOT about the person.
Robert wrote: "I have a different approach with those who call themselves Christians......I QUOTE the Bible and watch their response to the Word of God...
That says A LOT about the person."
Indeed. It's sharper than any two-edged sword.
Love of God dictates we, like Adam, are compelled to be good stewards and establish or extend righteous dominion. That was why Jesus whipped, Peter excoriated, John denounced, and Paul annoyed. That's why I accept and appreciate your harsh demeanor. I detect that you genuinely want to love God above all else. You would be surprised if I whipped, excoriated, denounced or annoyed you for the sake of getting you to "see truth" as I "see truth". Would you call me unloving for standing for the truth of the Bible as I clearly see it?
It is never unloving to stand for God and defend God's Torah. It is the most loving thing either of us can do. I barely know you, but I can tell a major difference is that I am seeking God's truth and you already own it. That's concerning to me, but not to you. So I can accept it for the sake of discourse on this Christian forum. I think you are perfect for this setting, as long as you aren't dealing with a new believer or weaker brother.