Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
Theological Questions
>
How many demons are trying to get their old nature back?
date
newest »
newest »
How does this apply to us humans? Do we get the same fair judgment? There - now it's complicated and nasty fun.
For those who are tree hugging pacifists: yes, God allowed AND may have caused a war in heaven. Now that would make a cool movie.
Rod wrote: "Simple question: how many demons are longing for their old nature? Or, how many angels are yet to rebel?Or is the game over? How free are they now? Is God mean for this?"
ALL... and NONE.
All of the fallen angels would LOVE to return to their pre-fall status...
None of the godly angels desire to have what the fallen angels now have!
Rod wrote: "How does this apply to us humans? Do we get the same fair judgment? There - now it's complicated and nasty fun."God is NOT unjust, so when He says He offers salvation unto ALL... He does NOT lie... He legitimately offers salvation unto all humans...
Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people ."
Fallen angels desire to go to God's heaven??? What makes you think this?
Rod - great topic; no one here has an ounce of knowledge about physics, but knows EVERYTHING about demons. You should get unprecedented response.
The war in heaven referenced in Revelation 12:7-9 seems to reference both a past an future event. It seems very likely that the demons know the error they made when they aligned with Satan.
Rod wrote: "Fallen angels desire to go to God's heaven??? What makes you think this?"They were there. They know their past... they know what lies ahead...
Robert wrote: "Rod - great topic; no one here has an ounce of knowledge about physics, but knows EVERYTHING about demons. You should get unprecedented response."You don't have an ounce of knowledge about Jesus... but YOUR OPINION IS THE WORD OF GOD (as far as you are concerned.)
Wade wrote: "The war in heaven referenced in Revelation 12:7-9 seems to reference both a past an future event. It seems very likely that the demons know the error they made when they aligned with Satan."Agreed Wade.
Not a future event. Don't assume prophecies/information in Revelation are chronological.
The future part ties in with the three heavens, Rod. It's generally understood to be both past (Ezekiel 28:11-19) and future.
There won't be another war in heaven. Ezekiel is simply agreeing with the tribulation and judgement on Earth.
Sure demons know error- but in no way do their natures desire pure truth or repentance or the good ol days.
Rod wrote: "Sure demons know error- but in no way do their natures desire pure truth or repentance or the good ol days."Of course you have Scripture to back up your opinion?
I think so. There are many many verses showing the behavior and comments of demons. Angels as well. Demons know who Jesus is - but they wish to be sent away from him (into Pigs perhaps?).
There is no mention in scripture of angels and demons getting along, or sharing, or offering hope to each other. Their natures are SET.
Rod wrote: "I think so. There are many many verses showing the behavior and comments of demons. Angels as well. Demons know who Jesus is - but they wish to be sent away from him (into Pigs perhaps?).
There..."
My response: Hmmm... no verses though?
Of course demons don't want to be near Jesus. What agreement has Christ with Belial?
Are there any verses that say demons prefer the fires of hell over what they had in the Presence of God?
Who says demons are smart enough to comprehend hell? We know they are spiritually blind and hate goodness. Hate can blind any truth with rage and self righteousness. And Satan has a huge ego and self worship problem. I'm pretty the reality of the situation hasn't fully hit him.Even after Satan is bound for a thousand years - he'll come back just as angry and wrathful. Their natures are set.
Otherwise we might have a few more angel rebellions. But nope. One time opportunity as allowed by God.
Robert, I would post all these verses - but I assumed you knew them already. (And I usually do this from my cellphone)
Rod wrote: "Robert, I would post all these verses - but I assumed you knew them already. (And I usually do this from my cellphone)"You can't post all the verses, since there are NONE!
Rod wrote: "Who says demons are smart enough to comprehend hell? We know they are spiritually blind and hate goodness. Hate can blind any truth with rage and self righteousness. And Satan has a huge ego and se..."My response: Thanks for MORE OPINIONS. Do you have any verses that say angels CANNOT READ?
They don't have to be "smart enough"... they can simply READ ALL ABOUT IT...
Wow! Just wow!Now I remember why I try never to chat with you.
Rod wrote: "Wow! Just wow!Now I remember why I try never to chat with you."
My response: Good idea! Since I require Scripture to validate doctrine... and you almost NEVER offer any.
I must say, you have a novel approach to avoid giving Bible verses!
Rod - as I suspected, people who have heard the terms "gene" and "DNA" but have NO idea about the distinction between the two, their chemical composition, their method of action, their feedforward and feedback capabilities, their role in inheritance, their role in evolution (yes, there is evolution but the advent of life and the physiology of mammals is in error), and their realm of control AMAZINGLY know all about demons. They don't understand a lick about their own makeup, but can give a world-class opinion about the supernatural. And somehow they think I need a lecture on TRUTH. What a colossal belly-laugh you people give me.
Robert wrote: "Rod - as I suspected, people who have heard the terms "gene" and "DNA" but have NO idea about the distinction between the two, their chemical composition, their method of action, their feedforward ..."My response: Ahhh... the god in his own mind speaks from his vast lack of knowledge again.
Jesus accepted the Bible as the Word of God, but Robert C thinks he knows better than Jesus! Ridiculous!
I'm going with Jesus on this one.Until hospitals have a better success rate against death.
Rod - I also give Jesus His due but, if I have a serious infection I take an antibiotic then pray. If I have a consequential life-changing decision, I pray, then sally forth forewarned and forearmed by the Holy Spirit. So, like the answer to most questions is neither "yes" nor "No" but "It depends", Jesus is always present in my life but circumstances dictate when to thoroughly enlist His help.
And this has What? To do with the natures of demons and angels? Not really a science or material issue. More of a Behaviour problem.
Rod - You want me to psychoanalyze supernatural beings? Well Ok - I'd probably have as much luck as Freud, Jung, or Skinner!
Just simply follow the information laid out in scripture.
Rod - we've been through this countless times; God's natural law is found in Scripture concerning behavior and how to worship him. God's natural law of the universe and the forces that control it is outside of Scripture. I have more interest in the latter than the former. You're vice versa - hope this board's big enough for the 2 of us!
Robert wrote: "Rod - we've been through this countless times; God's natural law is found in Scripture concerning behavior and how to worship him. God's natural law of the universe and the forces that control it i..."My response: Of course you have NO SCRIPTURE to validate your OPINION... so our choice is to believe Jesus (Mat. 4:4) or the unbiblical Robert.
I am with Jesus!
Robert wrote: "Robert wrote: "Rod - we've been through this countless times; God's natural law is found in Scripture concerning behavior and how to worship him. God's natural law of the universe and the forces th..."I certainly don't believe Demons are currently suffering in Hell, the Bible gives no indication of this.
We know from Job 1:6-7 That Satan can enter into heaven and also that he was "To and Fro roaming the earth."
I also know that Demons recognize a day of Judgement of some sort.
Matthew 8: 28-29
28 When He arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met Him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
If we are being technical two kinds of Hell have been taught of in the Bible. Sheol as a realm of the dead and Tophet ie. a place where the wicked will burn. Secondly, there has been talk among many Orthodox as in reference to the Apocryphal book of 1st Enoch that calls Sheol Tartarus and lists it as a place almost like a Prison. Not with suffering but where Demons cannot tempt man, and Tophet as a place where Demons suffer after the "Appointed Day!" How much of the Apocrypha I take with a grain of salt is a debate for another day.
I do not believe Demons however are currently suffering, I believe they roam the earth. Just like God has angels that serve him better then others I would say the same for Satan. Some Fallen Angels are more Loyal and serve him better then others. I do believe Rod, that many of them are deluded enough to believe they will still beat God somehow.
As to if they can Fall once again, this is something of interest.
I do believe that we take Satan and put him on a pedestal. I mean sure he was the one too sort of introduce evil and try to disobey God, taking a third of the host of Heaven. However, he was just the first loser in the Universe. If another Angel did it first they would be the Hot Topic for God's epic adversarial nemesis.
Many Christians believe that Angels have had their wills affixed after the Fall in Heaven, but I can't think of a Scripture that says this. And if you interpret Genesis 6 in a certain way I suppose the answer would be that they still can rebel. However my unbiased answer is that this is a question that I have pondered many a times, I hope one of you brothers can satisfy my thirst for an answer.
I don't think Job 1 is Satan entering into Heaven.It is probably better understood as Cain and Able bringing their offerings to the Lord On Earth.
Good question points.Is there a prison for demons that cross the line? Possibly (similar to Satan being bound for a thousand years.) there are demons in Revelation (or angels???) that will be permitted brutal violence and earthly destruction... but only when the time is right.
I don't think they have neutral or conflicting natures.
I often meet humans with these same insanely rebellious natures. They boast of calling good Evil and Evil Good.
Rod wrote: "I don't think Job 1 is Satan entering into Heaven.It is probably better understood as Cain and Able bringing their offerings to the Lord On Earth."
I believe it is God ORDERING satan to REPORT. Otherwise, why would satan voluntarily enter the Presence of God?
Rod wrote: "I often meet humans with these same insanely rebellious natures. They boast of calling good Evil and Evil Good."But those humans have never been in the God's Presence, in sinless perfection.
Good question, but I don't think the nature of demons change. They made their choice during the angelic conflict. Some (a third) sided with Satan when he was kicked out of heaven (Revelation 12:4). Are they sorry? Who knows, but I tend to think that since they seem intent on doing evil, probably not.Also, not all demons roam free. Some are in confinement based on 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6. Those who are not bound do roam free and try to make life miserable for the rest of us.
Good point. It does seem that some are not free. But no repentance ever.
Rod wrote: "Good point. It does seem that some are not free. But no repentance ever."I agree... there is no repentance for them. However, does that negate any desire to return to their previous state of favor before God?
The rich man and Lazarus history would indicate that those making the wrong choice... wish they could change it.
But that's not a demon. It is also a man with No repentance - he doesn't long for a different judgement. He is in a land with no hope
It is strange that the richman still wants the best for his human brothers. But no love for christ.
Rod wrote: "But that's not a demon. It is also a man with No repentance - he doesn't long for a different judgement. He is in a land with no hope"Hmmmm... Jesus was made a little lower than angels. On what Scripture do you say that demons DON'T wish they could go back to their previous state?
If people in the torments of fire wish they could go back... why would angels NOT? SCRIPTURE PLEASE.
Robert wrote: "Rod wrote: "But that's not a demon. It is also a man with No repentance - he doesn't long for a different judgement. He is in a land with no hope"Hmmmm... Jesus was made a little lower than angel..."
Robert, I agree that Satan can be summoned into heaven regarding my previous point. But why are you under the impression that Demons are currently suffering? They do not suffer until after they are judged, they are roaming the earth much like Satan does.
Rod, would you be willing to capitalize on your interpretation of Job 1:6-7 with regards to Cain and Abel?
Job is the Oldest book in the Bible written even before the Genesis account. So I really don't know why it would or how it could be in reference to the aforementioned men.
Many make huge assumptions when reading Job. But what do the words basically say?6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
No reason this isn't similar to Cain and Able, as well as God being on Earth with Adam and Eve.
Derrick wrote: "But why are you under the impression that Demons are currently suffering?..."I don't necessarily believe that they are suffering now. I do believe that they know what lies ahead for them.
As for suffering now... what do you think one feels when they were perfect in the Presence of God... and they are now vile demons facing an eternity in the Lake of Fire?
Probably not complete suffering... pre-suffering perhaps?
Or is the game over? How free are they now? Is God mean for this?