Reading the Church Fathers discussion
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Recommendations for our 7th group read
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Nemo
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Oct 26, 2017 07:35PM
While the discussions of church unity are going strong, it is time to look ahead and select our 7th and last group read of 2017. We may have time to read at least one book together before the holiday season starts, and another one before year end.
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Personally I'd like to read a Father of the first three centuries, perhaps revisit one we encountered this past year.Origen: Commentary on the Gospel of John
OR
Tertillian: Against Praxeas, in which he defends the Doctrine of the Trinity.
I am interested in the trinity. But I enjoyed Origen too, so would not mind that either
I am reading the Gospel of John in my Bible Study group currently, so that would be very applicable, but certainly could use insight into the Trinity, so I don't mind either, also.
Nemo mentioned works by Origen and Tertullian.I'm interested to know, if you're inclined to share, what interests you about those two works. Topics? Method? Style?
Clark wrote: "Nemo mentioned works by Origen and Tertullian.I'm interested to know, if you're inclined to share, what interests you about those two works. Topics? Method? Style?"
I'm interested in the two most prolific Christian writers in the first three centuries, their contrasting focus and style, and their understanding of these profound Christian doctrines.
These are just my personal preference. I welcome recommendations from other members.
Justin Matyr first apology deals with the trinity in part too. I can't remember the date but I think he falls within the first three centuries? Unless you've already read him as a group, of course.
I'd like to read Polycarp's Epistle to the Philippians. Or the Didache.
Of the ones mentioned so far above I'd prefer the Origen.
Clark wrote: "I'd like to read Polycarp's Epistle to the Philippians. Or the Didache.
Of the ones mentioned so far above I'd prefer the Origen."
I would like the Didache too. But I honestly have so much to learn that anything sounds good to me.
I just looked up what didache is, as I had never heard of it. That certainly sounds most interesting too!
The Didache is very short, only a few paragraphs, if I remember correctly.
I read the comments all the time but haven't participated in months. Mea Culpa! The Didache sounds good and it is quite short.
Luke wrote: "Justin Matyr first apology deals with the trinity in part too. I can't remember the date but I think he falls within the first three centuries? Unless you've already read him as a group, of course."We read Justin Martyr (2nd century) in our very first group read, "Ante-Nicene Fathers v1: The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus". The discussion folder is
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...
Many Ante-Nicene (first three centuries) Fathers wrote about the Trinity in part or in full, including Ignatius of Antioch (1st century). It would be very interesting to discuss the unity and diversity of the Fathers' teachings on the Trinity. Tertullian is the first one to use the word, trinitas.
Clark wrote: "I'd like to read Polycarp's Epistle to the Philippians.."We read Polycarp in our first group read as well, but there wasn't much discussion about him. I wouldn't mind revisiting him or Justin Martyr.
Kerstin wrote: "The Didache is very short, only a few paragraphs, if I remember correctly."Yes, 16 paragraphs, to be exact. The Didache, also known as "The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles" is included in ANF07, along with the "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles", a much longer work. I think it would be better if we read the two works together, for there are many parallels between them.
Nemo wrote: "Kerstin wrote: "The Didache is very short, only a few paragraphs, if I remember correctly."Yes, 16 paragraphs, to be exact. The Didache, also known as "The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles" is in..."
The "Constitutions" seem to be a later compilation from the 4th century.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01636...
The "Constitutions" are listed way on the bottom under "Miscellaneous" on New Advent's Church Fathers index
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/
I am not objecting to reading them, just figuring out how they fit into the spectrum.
Kerstin said, "The Didache is very short, only a few paragraphs, if I remember correctly."It's about 3000 words.
FWIW, a Dictionary of the Apostolic Church from 1916-1918 connects the Didache to several other later works. One reason I'm posting this it lists Hermas, which the group read some time ago, and the Apostolic Constitutions.5. Cognate and dependent works
(a) Barnabas.—That the Epistle of Barnabas is a cognate work is obvious. But the significance of the common material has been interpreted in very different ways. ...
(b) Hermas.—The connexion with Hermas is neither so extended nor so obvious. The relationship played a great part in earlier discussions from its bearing on the question of date, but it has now receded into the background. It is matter of general agreement now that Hermas used the Didache, ...
(c) The Apostolic Church Ordinance.—This is an adaptation of the Didache to suit the altered ecclesiastical condition of Egypt in the end of the 3rd or beginning of the 4th century. ...
(d) Didascalia.—This work fulfilled for Syria towards the end of the 3rd cent. what the last-named did for Egypt a little later. It is not, however, like it, simply an adaptation of the Didache. Indeed, it was earlier regarded as completely independent, but its dependence may now be held as proved ...
(e) Apostolic Constitutions and Canons.—The first six chapters embody the Didascalia, and to that extent the Didache is used at second-hand. Direct relationship is confined to the first 32 chapters of the seventh book. Most of the Didache is here embodied, but with significant alterations and additions which betray a later age. The adaptation is clearly based on our text of the Didache. ...
Watt, H. (1916–1918). Didache. In J. Hastings (Ed.), Dictionary of the Apostolic Church (2 Vols.) (Vol. 1, p. 298). New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons.
I've set up a poll for people to vote on our 7th group read:https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/1...
The poll ends on Nov 01, 2017 11:59PM PDT. Vote now! :)
Nemo wrote: "I've set up a poll for people to vote on our 7th group read:https://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/1...
The poll ends on Nov 01, 2017 11:59..."
Do we need to just vote once or can we vote for one other book also if we like two particularly?
The Goodreads poll doesn't give us the option to select more than one books, but you can name the other book in the comment section of the poll, if you like, and the order in which you like to read them.
Nemo wrote: "The Goodreads poll doesn't give us the option to select more than one books, but you can name the other book in the comment section of the poll, if you like, and the order in which you like to read..."Ok! Thanks
The Didache won the poll.Clark, would you be able to lead the discussions?
Nemo said, "Clark, would you be able to lead the discussons?"I'm glad to undertake that. Thanks for inviting me to do it.
Where in the folder and topic hierarchy should it go? I created a new folder, Church normative texts, and put a defining topic into it, just to have some place to hang the Didache discussion for now. Please feel free to move things around as you judge appropriate.
Nemo said, 'The Didache, also known as "The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles" is included in ANF07, along with the "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles", a much longer work. I think it would be better if we read the two works together, for there are many parallels between them.'So, folks, what do you prefer -- the Didache alone, or both?
My own preference is to read both.
Clark wrote: "Nemo said, 'The Didache, also known as "The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles" is included in ANF07, along with the "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles", a much longer work. I think it would be bett..."Both sound important to me.
Hey, everyone.The discussion of the text of the Didache isn't going anywhere. I've primed the pump a couple of times with little effect. An active discussion of the usual sort (which has left the text behind) is happening in the "out-of-band transmissions" topic I set up.
Do people want instead to read Tertullian, Against Praxeas, with Nemo leading? From what people have said it's a good ol' bread-and-butter theology work, which people seem to like.
Clark wrote: "Hey, everyone.The discussion of the text of the Didache isn't going anywhere. I've primed the pump a couple of times with little effect. An active discussion of the usual sort (which has left the..."
Maybe I misunderstood the parameters, but can we comment on anything "in" the Didache?
1) The short answer is that in the out-of-band transmissions topic you can comment on anything anyway you want to. Have at it!2) In the moderated topic I ask that people restrict themselves to answering the questions, with support from the text.
3) If you have a question about the Didache then let me know and I could open up a moderated topic to explore it.
Since in my most recent post I sorta ruined the question by sorta answering it I would need to post a new question anyhow. :-)
Clark wrote: "Hey, everyone.The discussion of the text of the Didache isn't going anywhere. I've primed the pump a couple of times with little effect..."
The situation is discouraging, though not without hope.
I suppose this shows a potential problem with Shared Inquiry in a forum like this: if the question posed doesn't interest people, there won't be any lively discussions. If the goal is to generate discussions, the leader will have to go through a process of trial and error to find the topics that suit the group. The discussion on church unity was quite robust.
Speaking for myself, if the question doesn't interest me or if I don't think the question helps me understand the text better, I will not try to answer it. That is why I didn't comment in the SI discussion on the Didache.
I read the Didache in one sitting, and don't have any burning questions to ask about the text, though I might be interested by others' observations.
Nemo said, "I read the Didache in one sitting."After you had read it were you able accurately to categorize what kind of document it is, and in particular to recognize that different parts of it are different kinds of documents?
Based on Kerstin's question about the less-moderated discussion on the Didache, I renamed the topic to be "Didache: Open Discussion". Kerstin, Nemo, Susan please let me know if there is a better name.
Nemo said, "If the goal is to generate discussions, ..."An excellent qualifier.
My goal isn't to generate discussions, but to read texts carefully and well. I deem the question I asked to be absolutely essential to reading the Didache well.
As I said, I'm quite happy to have "my" discussion set aside and to have the group do what it enjoys and finds valuable. No big deal. Really.
Clark wrote: "My goal isn't to generate discussions, but to read texts carefully and well. I deem the question I asked to be absolutely essential to reading the Didache well.."I think we all share the same goal, though we might disagree on how we can arrive at it, and what it means to read something well. Come to think of it, "how to read a text" might be a suitable topic for discussion. :)
As I said at the outset, I think the shared inquiry is more conducive to learning than "open" discussion, if done well, but it requires more from the moderator/leader, to provide intelligent questions. It is an art form to be mastered. :)
Boboy wrote: "Rescuing The Gospel by Dr. Lutzer is highly recommended."Welcome, Boboy! Thank you for the recommendation.
We have a group of Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant Christians and other people of faith. Feel free to introduce yourself to the group in the Welcome thread.
Clark wrote: "Nemo said, "I read the Didache in one sitting."After you had read it were you able accurately to categorize what kind of document it is, and in particular to recognize that different parts of it are different kinds of documents? "
“Kind of document” is too broad and vague a term. Fiction, non-fiction, biography, poetry,...? It was not until your question was “answered well enough” in the discussion thread that I finally have an inkling of why it is important to you.
Nemo said, '“Kind of document” is too broad and vague a term.'I myself didn't know whether it would be important or not. But I deem identifying the genre or type of any text to be crucial to understanding it.
The group here has focused almost exclusively on one text type -- the discursive treatise or argument. There were some letters in the Cyprian track, but they were also primarily discursive arguments. So it's easy to fall into reading every text as though it is a discursive argument.
This is an advertisement for reading the Didascalia.Learn unexpected facets of Christian life in the 3rd century! Like this:
"And if thou wouldst please God and not men, and lookest and hopest for the life and rest everlasting, adorn not thy natural beauty which is given thee from God, but with humility of neglect make it mean before men. In like manner also thou shalt not nourish the hair of thy head, but do thou shear it off; and thou shalt not comb and adorn it, nor anoint it, lest thou bring upon thee such women as ensnare, or are ensnared, by lust. Neither shalt thou put on fine raiment, nor be shod on thy feet with shoes which are fashioned according to the lust of folly; nor shalt thou put upon thy fingers rings of gold device: for all these things are the wiles of harlotry, and every thing that thou dost apart from nature. For to thee, a faithful man of God, it is not permitted to nourish the hair of thy head and to comb and smooth it, which is a wantonness of lust; neither shalt thou arrange and adorn it, nor adjust it so that it may be beautiful. And thou shalt not destroy the hairs of thy beard, nor alter the natural form of thy face and change it to other than God created it, because that thou desirest to please men. But if thou do these things, thy soul shall be deprived of life, and thou shalt be rejected before the Lord God. As a man therefore who would please God, take heed thou do no such things; and avoid all those things which the Lord hateth."
I posted the above quotation as a kind of joke in an online writing group I'm in. The group has more women than men in it. I thought they would see it as a somewhat funny reversal of the stereotypical treating of women as the ones who are warned against making themselves attractive and focusing on outward appearance. The women in the group who said anything said exactly the opposite, that the passage beat up on women, not on men. ("Beat up on" was my phrase, meant jocularly.) Some of them had very strong opinions. In the group chat I posted a link to the "Church normative texts" folder and invited them to visit.So,
1) Some people may show up here who are not familiar with the subject area or with our habits here. Please help them out. At least some of them had very strong opinions but weren't working from the text but from general ideas they have; they may come on very strong. If so, please calmly help them acclimate themselves here. One might be sorely tempted to return broadside for broadside but I think that would be unproductive. If necessary, break out Luke 6:27-28 and similar passages. :-)
2) As I said, they read the text just about the exact opposite of how I read it. It is possible some people here have done the same and I've offended them. If so, I apologize.
People who voted for the Didache: What were you hoping the reading and discussion would yield for you? How can I help you read it and benefit from it?
Clark wrote: "This is an advertisement for reading the Didascalia.Learn unexpected facets of Christian life in the 3rd century! Like this:.."
The Didascalia is not a discursive treatise, but the discussion about it can have discursive arguments, such as why certain admonitions like the one quoted above is necessary, and whether they are applicable today, etc. I comnented on it in the open discussion thread.
Clark wrote: ". Some people may show up here who are not familiar with the subject area or with our habits here. Please help them out...."Are they familiar with Goodreads? They will need to join the GR group before they can participate in group discussions.
Nemo said, "Are they familiar with Goodreads?"I rather doubt any of them will visit, but I "see" them every day so if they are confused how to read or post they can ask me.
Nemo said, "The Didascalia is not a discursive treatise, but the discussion about it can have discursive arguments,"Certainly. Just to be extra careful, when I talk about discursive arguments I mean not a dispute or debate but rather a discourse making some extended course of reasoning, like most of the texts folks have read here.
Another tidbit from the Didascalia: Chapter 4 seems to say it is not necessary that the bishop be literate: "But if it be possible, let him be instructed and apt to teach; but if he know not letters, let him be versed and skilled in the word, and let him be advanced in years."
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