A Clash of Kings
discussion
Who is Azor Ahai?
Nah, you got it all wrong. Stannis Baratheon fulfills the prophecy. Stannis is Azor Ahai Reborn and his blade Lightbringer is no makeshift counterfeit. No, it's the authentic and all original Sword of Legend which the Stan Man will wield to defeat the Dragons, destroy the Others, and abolish Winter for all time.There's only one catch. Lightbringer's batteries are running low after all these centuries. That's why it only emits light, instead of burning like it did in the Good Ol' Days. Stannis needs to charge it, just like the original AA did.
Yeah, that's right. So, who is the Nissa Nissa to Stan's Azor Ahai? Melisandre. Sorry Mel.
thecryptile wrote: "Nah, you got it all wrong. Stannis Baratheon fulfills the prophecy. Stannis is Azor Ahai Reborn and his blade Lightbringer is no makeshift counterfeit. No, it's the authentic and all original Sword..."I'm having a hard time telling how much of that is serious and how much is a joke…
I'm gonna go ahead and consider none of it to be meant seriously ... :D
Interesting. At first I thought the prophecy thing about Azor Ahai was Melisandre's fiction. I didn't take it seriously until people started to talk about it. I didn't even realized she believed her own words. I thought it was all a show for Stanis. Later I was surprised to find out that she did, but even then I thought she deluded herself. It's been a long time since i read the series, so I might be missing something here. Maybe it is real. Why do you believe it to be so?
Mainly because the fight against the darkness is what I expect to happen in book 7 :)Overall, the red faith explains the goings-on in the books pretty well. Apart from Melisandre being a charlatan at times, I have to say that the red faith is pretty effective.
Also this flaming sword theme is what Thoros of Myr does. I think he got the idea from the prophecy.
Thanks! I haven't looked at it that way. It makes sense. ASOIAF has always felt to me more like a historical novel. The fantasy element isn't really heavy and maybe that'a why I haven't paid big attention to it. It's just not the kind of story I can relate to "The chosen one".I remember Emon's prophecy about Daenarys, so it might be her. If it's possible to be a woman.
I think that the wrong sex -for Azor Ahai- is why no one over in Essos ever tries applying the prophecy to Dany. She was involved in the killing of her spouse though. A sacrifice to create Lightbringer. I guess what I am trying to say: Khal Drogo is Nissa Nissa come again.
Yes, I had forgotten about that. Maybe it isn't going to be literally Azor Ahai reborn, but someone who walks in his shoes. Someone with a similar faith. Like she would be continuing his deed or something like that. Maybe the story is supposed to be repeating itself once in a while. I remember Mirri Maz Duur saying that only death could compensate for life or something of the sort. Maybe Khal Drogo's death was fatal in some way. Maybe it was supposed to happen.Look at me. Now I'm a theory nerd. :D
Kaya wrote: "[spoilers removed]"Considering that (view spoiler). No matter how you cut it it's not (view spoiler).
Kaya wrote: "[spoilers removed]"I am inclined to agree with Matthew. Every indication in A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons was that Daenerys was in fact the one foretold in prophecy to be Azor Ahai reincarnate. Though I choose to believe (like many fans) that Jon is still alive and his salvation is at hand :)
^ & melisandre has said and i quote,"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow". So maybe, just maybe, its jon snow.
You guys are listening to Melisandre, when it comes to who is Azor Ahai? She has been wrong before. As she herself said: The flames don't lie, but she sucks at reading their truths.
Let's look at the ones we have said: -Stannis the Mannis, c'mon if you believe GRRM would just tell us that AA is Stannis like that, well I guess you got surprise at the Red Weeding and that Jon's little accident made you squeal. It's too easy for the reader to grasp GRRM likes for us to actually use our mind.
-Dany, ok this one would make sense, at the end of AFFC Maeaster Targeryan understands that people have been seeking for a male but a female could be since dragons don't have sex (asexual reproduction?) well point is, Dany did kill her spouse, although Nissa and Drogo, well you won't confuse them as twins. Now she has Dragons! She can't control them but hey you got to start somewhere, now the whole thing about being born a mist salt and smoke, she was indeed reborn a mist smoke and she was conceived at an Island, providing the salt. The problem with Dany, well first I don't like her (it's not like GRMM asked my opinion right?) but moreover she is too easy to predict as well. GRMM would probably choose Hodor to surprise us.
-Jon, this would be a little biased since Jon is my favorite character, but one if he would be AA, which we assumed is the samething as the Prince that was promised, he would have to be R+L son, not Ned's. He would have the blood of the dragon, (a quick thought, why is ghost different that all the other pups? why is he specifictly white haired? a targeryan feature) well I'm not going to enter the specificts about Jon's parentage, but in another matter his little accident. Now it said that the wound smoked and that he tasted salt, plus Bowen was crying. Salt and smoke at the point of his "death" (which I don't think he is death, but for the sake of space I won't go into detail) now even if he was fataly injured Lady Mel is there to cure him. Now the Nissa problem, well he didn't really kill any spouse, but he directly caused Yggrite's death. Oh and the little fact that Mel wants to see AA and she only sees Snow or that Viserion looks a little like Ghost, white with red eyes. He is not the obvoius choice, but some little hints point to him (which as the Red and Purple Wedding and Jon's accident as well as Ned's and some little failure at Blackwater Bay, that some hints happen to pop out but people failed to catch them) but as I said GRRM would probably choose Hodor just to keep us on our toes.
Tanvi wrote: "^ & melisandre has said and i quote,"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow". So maybe, just maybe, its jon snow."When did she say this and what was the context? Because if it was before the end of A Storm of Swords and she said snow (lower case, not capital) then this could just as easily have been in the context of her telling Stannis of how he needed to head north to the Wall. And to repeat what Daniel said, she was convinced it was Stannis since she was first introduced to the story, and has shown no signs of recanting that theory since.
[i]When did she say this and what was the context?[/i]It was in the last book I believe. For me R+L=J is a given, and as for the "accident", well anyone who has read the Farseer trilogy knows how you can survive something very bad by jumping into an animal bonded to you.... So for me, AA is Jon.
But maybe AA refers to the type of batteries required to charge that sword mentioned in POster #2 ;p
Yes, I found the reference shortly after I asked that. But I was right about the first part, she did say "snow", not capital S, "Snow". The connection can still be maintained of course, since this vision could easily be said to indicate that Azor Ahai is somewhere in the North. That being said, I think it would be an interesting twist if AA turned out to be Mance Rayder. He was, after all, the man who organized the Wildlings into an army to fight their way south, and he did it because of the return of the Others. And Melissandre did keep him alive, though I'm not sure I recall her exact reason...
It could also refer to how Jon Snow acquired his sword after saving the Old Bear from the fire, and that he'll be the one to lead everyone against the Others (the cold breath) when winter comes (darkness falling).
Oh yeah! I forgot that Longclaw was Valyrian steel. And Martin is pretty bad at misdirection when it comes to his writing. It seemed abundantly clear what the main threads were during the first book, but the long divergences and distractions have become such that Bran's story, Daenery's desire to return to Westeros, the identity of Azor Ahai and the battle for the Iron Throne almost feel like they've been lost in the plot.
Jon Snow is Azor Ahai and Daenerys is The Prince that was Promised.
Um, do you mean that the other way around, with Jon being The Prince and Daenerys being AA?
No The Prince That was Promised is a prophecy made by dragons. Since dragons were asexuals, nobody bothered to look for a girl. Maester Aemon mentions this to Sam when they travel to Oldtown.
Yes, but didn't he say, as part of that, that he now believed Daenerys was AA? Or did he specifically say "The Prince" and is there a distinction between that and AA?
Well, GRRM is not clear whether AA and The Prince are one and the same. Some believe they are some don't. I think they are two different prophecies. Maester Aemon does not mention AA
I think AA is Jon and Dany. After all, isn't it supposed to be a song of ice and fire. Jon is ice and Dany fire, maybe?
Madhura wrote: "Well, GRRM is not clear whether AA and The Prince are one and the same. Some believe they are some don't. I think they are two different prophecies. Maester Aemon does not mention AA"No, but Melissandre does use both terms interchangabely, and it does seem like the mention of the "Prince" is a reference to Azor Ahai since this prophecy is about one who will come and "deliver the world from darkness". But you're right, there's not a lot of clarity on this, which is in keeping with what prophecies are all about!
Carla wrote: "I think AA is Jon and Dany. After all, isn't it supposed to be a song of ice and fire. Jon is ice and Dany fire, maybe?"Yes, but I think there is a third person missing, since everybody is always mention that the dragon has three head, so it might be that this other person (if indeed Jon is one of the three.. I hope so) is the true AA or the promise prince or both. But who knows? At this point, that everybody seems to drop dead I only ask that my favorite characters stay strong and alive til the end :)
Mary Ann wrote: "Carla wrote: "I think AA is Jon and Dany. After all, isn't it supposed to be a song of ice and fire. Jon is ice and Dany fire, maybe?"Yes, but I think there is a third person missing, since ever..."
I support that about the third person, I mean we all concentrated in Jon and Dany, but what about Aegon?
I think its Daenerys. She is of the line of Aerys and likely to take the iron throne. For me its Daenery's.
Angel wrote: "Mary Ann wrote: "Carla wrote: "I think AA is Jon and Dany. After all, isn't it supposed to be a song of ice and fire. Jon is ice and Dany fire, maybe?"Yes, but I think there is a third person mi..."
What you mean with "... but what about Aegon?".
I think Melisandre is a fraud and I agree that she has misread the fire or that is on purpose, how can she not see in that fire of hers what Davos intended to do with Robert's bastard or what Jon would do? I think it's her intention to get people to believe in the false AA and immerse them in the darkness, as Aemon fears, because if she knows so well the prophecy, she should know that the sword should radiate heat. So, if Stanis not die before knowing the truth, he will kill her.Anyway I don't like her and her habit of burning people alive, I got burned badly as a child, and I still remember, so I know how horrible it is. Whatever God a person worship, He shouldn't demand burnt people, it's cruel.
Mary Ann wrote: "Angel wrote: "Mary Ann wrote: "Carla wrote: "I think AA is Jon and Dany. After all, isn't it supposed to be a song of ice and fire. Jon is ice and Dany fire, maybe?"Yes, but I think there is a t..."
You know Rheagar's son, the dragon needs 3 heads. If we automatically include Dany and Jon, which are the most famous, then we have a head missing, Aegon.
Angel wrote: "Mary Ann wrote: "Angel wrote: "Mary Ann wrote: "Carla wrote: "I think AA is Jon and Dany. After all, isn't it supposed to be a song of ice and fire. Jon is ice and Dany fire, maybe?"Yes, but I t..."
You just blew my mind!
Matthew wrote: "Angel wrote: "Mary Ann wrote: "Angel wrote: "Mary Ann wrote: "Carla wrote: "I think AA is Jon and Dany. After all, isn't it supposed to be a song of ice and fire. Jon is ice and Dany fire, maybe?"..."Let's see how far we can take this :)
About Aegon: (view spoiler)
I hope you are right Daniel. I just cannot find it in me to give two hoots about Aegon!
So, now I know... I shouldn't have asked ;), I didn't realise that he is still a character in the story line.
Daniel wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Angel wrote: "Mary Ann wrote: "Angel wrote: "Mary Ann wrote: "Carla wrote: "I think AA is Jon and Dany. After all, isn't it supposed to be a song of ice and fire. Jon is ice and Da..."I don't think he is an idiot at all, at least not according to the Spider, and if I have learn anything about ASOIAF is to trust the Spider. He has Jon next to him, an Army and remember that the Kingdom is in shatters pieces, easy for an invader to conquer. Now if he could raise Dorne...
My money is on Jon for all the reasons above--and because when Melisandre looks for a new vision of Stannis as Azor Ahai (in ADWD), "all she [is shown] is snow."
Alienne wrote: "My money is on Jon for all the reasons above--and because when Melisandre looks for a new vision of Stannis as Azor Ahai (in ADWD), "all she [is shown] is snow.""You should point out that in that sentence, Snow is actually capitalized.
Matthew wrote: "Alienne wrote: "My money is on Jon for all the reasons above--and because when Melisandre looks for a new vision of Stannis as Azor Ahai (in ADWD), "all she [is shown] is snow.""You should point ..."
Actually, it's not. This is a misnomer due to the fact that countless people have quoted this section and capitalized it in order to make the point that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai.
Matthew wrote: "Actually, it's not. This is a misnomer due to the fact that countless people have quoted this section and capitalized it in order to make the point that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai."Actually, it is capitalized. You may be thinking of some other sentence. This is the one that most people are referring to, I believe:
I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.
(It's from the Melisandre chapter of ADWD.)
Mitali wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Actually, it's not. This is a misnomer due to the fact that countless people have quoted this section and capitalized it in order to make the point that Jon Snow is Azor Ahai."Act..."
I've seen it quoted both ways, depending on the source. But which chapter is it exactly? I would like to silence all doubt by finding the exact source.
Matthew wrote: "I've seen it quoted both ways, depending on the source. But which chapter is it exactly? I would like to silence all doubt by finding the exact source."As I said above, it's the Melisandre chapter of ADWD (there's only one), fairly early on in the chapter.
It's possible that the sentence was printed differently in different editions.
Matthew wrote: "Yes, I found the reference shortly after I asked that. But I was right about the first part, she did say "snow", not capital S, "Snow". The connection can still be maintained of course, since this ..."On page 408 of the hard cover of ADWD, the very bottom paragraph, Melisandre thinks (italics) "I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow."
Snow is capitalized.
Yep, there it is. However, at this point I'm inclined to believe that this is not an indication that she is seeing Azor Ahai, but is instead getting repeated warnings that Jon Snow is in danger. I do believe that this is because he is one third of the prophecy whereas Danaerys and Aegon are the other two - i.e. the dragon having three heads.
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"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."
This is the prophecy in A Clash of Kings (from AWOIAF). This is not talking about Melisandre's cheap tricks or Stanis's makeshift sword. I think this is about Dany producing living Dragons ("flaming swords") from the pyre. In that case, the Dragons are the Lightbringers. Note that "he who clasps it" is not necessarily the "warrior", who brought them into the world. Who will wield the flaming sword in the end and make the darkness (Walkers; I think that is a pretty safe bet) flee is yet to be determined. Dany at least is having trouble controlling the dragons.