Wheel of Osheim [Apr 1, 2018]

[Virginie]

Heh… I somehow wrote a gigantic essay again...

Chapter 7: (view spoiler)[

Flashbacks:

‘Cheat, liar, coward, adulterer, blasphemer, thief, cheat, liar, coward, adulterer—’
‘Are you hearing this, Snorri?’
He stops and lets me catch up. ‘Yes.’ He glances around, still spooked. ‘Voices. They keep calling me a killer. Over and over.’
‘That’s it?’
‘…blasphemer, thief, cheat, liar, coward, adulterer…’
‘You’re not getting “cheat” or “thief”?’
Snorri frowns down at me. ‘Just “killer”.’
I cup a hand to my ear. ‘Ah, yes, it’s clearer now. I’m getting “killer” too.’
‘…coward, adulterer, blasphemer…’

Hahahaha. I laughed so much listening to this. Couldn’t help but notice Jal didn’t get ‘killer’ at all, even though he killed plenty. Could it be because he was in berserker mode?

Didn’t like the whole death-by-unlocking either.
Unlocking every door? Cool, that’s just an overpowered skeleton key.
Rewinding clockwork soldiers? A bit too much but it makes sense. (I still don’t understand while Jal didn’t simply take over every single soldier in the city.)
Killing a damn lichkin? WAY TOO MUCH. Especially since Jorg had so much trouble with those. The encounter didn’t really bring anything to the overall plot either.

Present time:
I agree with you, Jalan’s change of behavior was really abrupt. I don’t think it’s coming out of nowhere though. We’ve seen a lot of hardship and subsequent growth on Jalan’s part these past chapters. Whatever else happened in Hell (what happened to Snorri?!? :O) seems to have left him… Colder. Meaner. More grounded.
I re-read the chapter 2 or 3 times to try and make sense of it and noticed several mentions of his berserker rage rising. During the Slidr flashback, he mentioned that, for the first time, berserker Jalan met everyday Jalan and that they came to an agreement.
I’ve considered Jalan schizophrenic ever since Liar’s Key. That flashback would then mean that his different personas are somewhat merging. At the very least, he seems to be able to have a better control over his rage, but that also mean he can access that ruthless and callous part of himself easily now.
Another thing that bothered me is the fact he remembered Jorg’s advise only when in front of Maeris Alus. I mean… Drunken memories about how to deal with a man threatening his life for more than a year now, about a man he’s deliberately seeking in his lair, and he only remembers those right in front of him? At exactly the moment he’s supposed to act? With a hidden knife ready in his sleeve? A bit too convenient, don’t you think?
Either ML is re-using what he did with Jorg & the copper box in order to hide things from the reader. Or… (and that’s my opinion on this) Jal forgot about Jorg’s advise on purpose. Just like Jorg used his copper box to hide his plans from Sageous, Jalan used his ability to pick and choose his memories to hide his plan… from himself. Or rather, his cowardly self that would have lost his nerve and backed out. And so, Jalan embraced his ‘berserker self’ to do what needed to be done.

I walked away, coffer heavy in my arms, still a coward. Neither the old Jalan, nor the one who left Vermillion a year ago. Perhaps a little of each – still a coward, but when you’ve looked at your old life with eyes that have seen Hell you discover a new perspective and realize that you can only be pushed so far.

I really liked this last paragraph in the chapter. It shows well Jalan’s growth I think. He gained both his ‘coward self’ ‘s cunning and his ‘berserker self’ ‘s ruthlessness and absence of fear. I’m happy he managed to resolve his problems but… A bit sad that he had to lose his… “innocence” and spoiled brat attitude to do it.

That chapter echoes Jorg’s words in Prince of Thorns as well: Cowards should be treated with respect. Cowards best know how to hurt. Corner one at your peril.
If I’m right about Jalan purposefully forgetting Jorg’s words, then he did so to back himself into a corner, to force his ruthless, cold killer side to come out and take matters into his own hands.

Have you read The First Law trilogy? It reminds me of (view spoiler)[ Logan Ninefingers and the Bloody-Nine, and the two personas gradually becoming one again. (hide spoiler)]. In a sense, berserker Jalan exists so bumbling womanizer spoilt Jal’ can exist as well.

What do you think?
(hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

Chapter 8: (view spoiler)[
Not much to say after my essay about Chapter 7.

‘Jal!’ Barras showed no such hesitation and threw himself into my arms with no pretence at a manly hug. ‘Jal! Thank you, Jal! Thank you!’
‘Steady on!’ I waited for a loosening of his grip then slipped free. ‘The bad news is you owe me two camels—’ I caught Lisa’s look of outrage. ‘Three! Three camels. Good ones!’

And now that his camels are gone, he keeps affirming he liked them… Haa Jalan :D :D

Both Lisa and the Red Queen immediately noticed a change in Jalan. I really liked Jalan confronting the Red Queen. He made the best choice possible giving the key to Garyus IMO.
Jal indeed grew a lot as a player. More than Jorg since he (Jalan) wasn’t even aware of the game to begin with. (hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

Chapter 9 & 10 : (view spoiler)[

Jalan’s conversation with his father… That’s indeed a gigantic Death Flag! I didn’t pay attention to the Cardinal Seal’s business but the mention of his daughter... If his death opened the way for the Unborn, then I’m wondering why Jalan was targeted to begin with. Seems easier to kill a drunk cardinal than a seasoned warrior. One that runs fast. I guess we’ll see :)

‘A message?’ I lifted a scroll-case, ebony chased with silver, set with the royal seals.
‘A message.’ Garyus inclined his head. ‘You’re the Marshal of Vermillion.’
‘Fuck that!’ My turn to drop the scroll-case as though it were hot. ‘…your stewardness.’
‘“Highness” is the correct form of address when the steward is of noble birth … if we’re being formal, Jalan.’
‘Fuck that, your highness.’

Aaand, after categorically refusing, Jalan accepts… Just to boss his brothers. :D
I was surprised by how competent Jalan is as the Marshal. Makes me wonder about his soldiering days. We now know he wasn’t running away during the battle at the Aral pass but exterminating his enemies on his own. Could he actually be a good military commander, and refuse to admit it ‘cause “responsibilities”?

‘You’ve looked at the figures?’
‘Some of them, certainly.’
‘Ghoul sightings inside the city walls in the past four days?’
He’d picked one I actually noticed when Renprow pushed it across my desk. ‘Uh, three, then seven, twelve yesterday, another dozen or so came in this morning before I left after lunch.’

Yeah, right. Garyus just happened to pick the one he remembered. Sure…

‘A week!’ I yelped. ‘Less than a week?’ How far could I get on a fast horse in less than a week? ‘This isn’t right! An attack here? Is an army coming? Is it the Dead King? Someone needs to do something! We need—’
[one page later]
I tried to keep my voice steady but the words ‘less than a week’ kept running through my mind, along with images of my new horse, Murder, waiting for me in the stables.

😂😂😂😂😂😂

About the copper box: It appeared in Liar’s Key as well. During one of the flashback (the one with Silent Sister VS Lady Blue I think), Jalan notices a box with a thorn pattern in Golloth’s possession. I’d assumed Lunthar was on the Red Queen’s side ever since (especially since he helped Jorg).
(hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

Heh, I'll open all this moro...I already read most of the chapter 7 essay...this was just to say hi....

[Virginie]

Hey you :) Lots of things to read, as promised... I think I managed to top my analysis of Yusuf's talk with my new comment #99 lenght-wise
🤐

[Zaara]

I loved your theories and more than that I loved how you put them fwd.

Correct me if either my French or my knowledge of history are wrong, my dahlin', but haven’t there been periods of history when the French Court – either due to the nature of its being or some happy convergence of events – attracted the brightest stars from across the Continent, if not the world..
And the most inimitable -- the most mannered, beautiful, intelligent, witty, and cultured – of these men and women earned the epithet nonpareil...

Translated it means The Unparalleled, yes?
Look through my eyes and see yourself.
And I only wish I could say more, Virginie...
Words are such paltry things to clothe ideas in.
But we must do the best we can, no?

Anyway...now I don't just wish future readers of this trilogy will reference this thread but (and this is a really silly hope) I hope Mark Lawrence sees your posts. They'd make him smile...

If you said all those things, esp about (view spoiler)[Leipzig, (hide spoiler)] before reading the relevant chapter and/or opening my post then...gal...may I just say your guesses are uncanny... do you have X-rays in the place where your eyes shoulda been?
And isn't it funny how we SOME RANDOM THINGS I FORGOT TO SAY ABOUT CHAPTER 11 (view spoiler)[both thought of hadron colliders? I have written Butterfly Effect down in my book in the margins next to this quote: " Do nothing and see everything that will be with perfect and impotent clarity - or reach out to change things and like a hand touching the water destroy the reflections of tomorrow. the frustration of it would drive me mad." Of course now I cannot remember for the life of me what I wanted to say. But I imagine Gods would face this dilemma (in the quote) every damn day....

Btw...I have no idea what the Rechenberg Equation is. And don't particularly want to find out...but your gigantic post certainly made a lot of sense even without slotting this piece into the picture slowly forming in my head.

One more thing...James Alan Kendeth...Builder ghost...tells you just how ANCIENT this family is. An unbroken line over a thousand years old...wonder if that fact will have any particular significance. (hide spoiler)]

Ok I'm thru Chapter 15 and so I'm caught up to sked. I should've ideally posted yest but I binge watched The Night Manager with cousins...Jalan now has Tom Hiddleston's face...clever, mobile, a bit saturnine...and those lancet eyes which miss nothing...and then Way of Kimgs...like I said in the PMs, wouldn't have any time to log in and go on that thread even if I was taking a break from on here.

CHAPTERS 12-14 There's nothing much to post here since they're straightfwd OPEN ONLY AFTER FINISHING CH 15 I SWEAR BACK OFF NOW!!! (view spoiler)[ battle scenes. We get to see Jalan killing zombies with rocks all the while telling himself that he's just running away. Also, note he's quite a capable tactician, all the while trying to convince you he's just another stupid git stumbling thru the managerial motions. His men seem to respect him. He's got extensive and detailed plans in place...rockets, siege engines, oil barrels, braced for a siege...
And then the decision-making chops...cold ruthless call he takes, the same call Grandma took...but a hundred times worse.
When Jalan UNDERSTATES something...you know its truly horrible.

"Do it"
And he did.
(hide spoiler)]

CHAPTER 15
ONCE AGAIN BACK OFF TILL YOU READ THE DAMN :-((((( CHAPTER
(view spoiler)[Darin!!!! Darin!!! Why did it have to be the more likeable brother. why?
Deliberately made more heartbreaking, no? with his little girl who will never know her Dad.
Also...the thing trying to push his way thru his chest. ZOMBIE SISTAAAAH...I guess it will now target the other brother Bully Martus?
(hide spoiler)]
I hope you don't mind I've taken drastic shortcuts in the ways of my expression...I know you'll be able to make similar heuristic leaps + prolly far ahead of me...so I'm veering sharply towards conciseness. Now I'm conscious of just how long 😂😂😂😂😂 I might've been boring you out during my time in the sandbox.
Hope you have a good weekend....and thanks...thanks for all this hon.

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "I loved your theories and more than that I loved how you put them fwd.

Correct me if either my French or my knowledge of history are wrong, my dahlin', but haven’t there been periods of history wh..."

Sorry for answering so late, I was trying to take a little break from ML. So I started obsessing about Red Rising and binge-reading it instead... I'm hopeless :p

Zaara, sweety... I don't know what to say... Thank you for saying all those things, it means so much to me... I just... Thank you! *stands there, mouth open, stupidly searching for the right words*

I'll come back soon with spoilers and such! I'm seriously in shock from you calling me 'Unparalled' ...

[Zaara]

:-) heh, check your PM...
Btw I'm reading on sked...but will likely batch post moro or the day after...they're short chapters...got nothing much to say right now....

[Virginie]

I'm on schedule as well! I've been running around everywhere this week-end and I don't like posting from the app :p

But I'm at home now :D

Chapter 11 (view spoiler)[
Not much to say after my huge posts. I feel a bit silly writing it all just to have it explained the next chapter.
But... I KNEW IT! I CAN SAY I KNEW IT! HA!

I didn't expect to see an AI for the human that became Aslaug. Feels like cheating: she both copied herself AND transmuted to the spirit world.
The other hologram, the man, is Bareqel I think (well, the human that became Baraqel).

Love the quote you chose about seeing the future. It makes me think of self-realizing premonition. A bit of what happens with the Ancrath & the prophecy. Jorg & William were targeted by the Builders spirits because of the prophecy. But it's William's death that set Jorg on his path and made him who he is. It's because they opposed/manipulated him that Jorg set to destroy the Builders spirits. Talk about irony :p

I think the Rechenberg Equation refers to one of the law of quantum physics. Tip the equation and you break equilibrium which will only worsen with time. That's the whole 'the universe is chaotic by nature' thing, maybe... Hmmh..
(hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

Forgot the say about Chapter 10: (view spoiler)[
After complaining about babies, Jalan's first thought after hearing the world is ending in 'a few months' is for his niece, and how she won't be able to grow up then.

Jalan, Jalan... So no honest with himself! (hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

Chapter 12-15: (view spoiler)[
Not much to say again. Jalan really has the hang of his position as a Marshal and still pretends all he's doing is running around, accidentally skewering his enemies.
I noticed he said something along the lines of 'the only thing I retained from my military education is to always take the high ground'. But I think he already said that (the only thing I remember from my education...) about some other military strategic notions. I'll try and catch this if when I re-read ;)

He's making some cold, calculated and ruthless moves though. Burning the homes of his people because 'they're already dead or will be soon'. Damn... Very Jorg-like. He's saying/thinking he's panicked and totally out of his league but there's no hesitation there.

And Darin.... NOOOOOO! WHYYYY?!? Poor Jal' lost Tut, his father, his brother and I don't have much hope for Snorri anymore...
And... ZOMBIE SISTER! I didn't expect the "death of a close relative opening the way" to be this literal... I mean, coming through the chest? Eeeewwww!

(hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

I always pictured Jalan with Hiddleston's face. For me, Hiddleston is how I imagine Loki (thanks to the Marvel movies...) and by association, the cunning, sarcastic liar Jal.
By the way, did you like the Night Manager? I binge-watched it last year and loved it. But I'm a huge Tom Hiddleston fan :p
Only lovers left alive is one of my favorite movies. Just the right amount of weirdness and hypnotic ambiance.

[Zaara]

Ok spoilery presents for when you come back...just like you had 'em for me ;-)

LARGE AND TOTALLY OBSESSIVE POST ABT CHAPTER 17

So...where were we?
Ah yes, mid-(view spoiler)[battle (hide spoiler)] in Vermillion, Red March. How do you think Vermillion is written, Virginie? It is not set in Paris (which will be Ancrath like we discussed from the map) but the palace itself is a series of interlocking buildings much like Versailles, yes? If I'm not mistaken...or is there a big palace on the Cote D'Azur that will make a better location that I have no idea about? I tried with my pathetic Google skills and results threw up an ML
Blog post which says Red March is set near Milan 😂😂😂 so we had it sooooo wrong....and another link which says there is a Vermillion Palace somewhere in Beijing.
Whatever!
Anyway the exact palace is irrelevant. My point is...while reading this entire portion (view spoiler)[of the siege/battle of Vermillion (hide spoiler)] I'm imagining the man...ML that is, trudging arnd in his tourist avatar...and looking at, say (example only) Versailles. Now most tourists would see the grand façade and the beautiful gardens, admire paintings and architecture but our guy Mark...hmmm, he has a mind that is thinking " Woop...HOW this place would make a grand setting for the (view spoiler)[ zombie apocalyse😂😂😂😂 (hide spoiler)]"
Gotta love it!

CH 17 (view spoiler)[ so Hertet has finally declared himself King. The one blatantly selfish but ballsy thing he did in his life, wonder how long that will last. Ah well, inside his head he has been king for long anyway. (hide spoiler)]

Loved this sentence...so lovely + descriptive and yet leaves wiggle room for the imagination.
NON-SPOILER ZOMBIE BATTLESCENE QUOTE FOR ANNI.
"The whirlwind blew taller than the gatehouse, the moonlight glittering on broken glass braided through its storm-cone, and scores of citizens torn and flayed wandered about it, bright-eyed, their riders visible as faint and ghostly forms upon each back, devilish and horrific in their variety."
Approaching the Dickensian, yes?
Of course our boy Mark is the comma sprayer...there were so many more commas in that sentence but I eliminated some (3 I think) to make it look prettier 😜 + bcuz I have a sick mind sometimes + don't even get me started about Lashing with a capital L.

Ok goombye Anni dahlin'. Back to the serious spoilers. DO NOT OPEM.
STILL ON CH 17 😂(view spoiler)[...and the scene where he jezzt throws the enchanted sword away...gives it to Martus...I was all "Jalaaan nooooooooooo! what kind of a fekkin' dag would give away his weapon in the middle of the zombie apocalypse (sorry this is now my "word" for this set of chapters) to the evil brother who beat him and bullied him all his life???
But it was so sweet and generpus and heroic and of course Jalan had to self-deprecate and justify......oooo I just gave it away so I could run unencumbered.
We know what's gonna happen, right? Marty is gonna die, the zombie sistah is gonna take his body AND now the bad guys will get the cool smoke enchanted sword.
Damn you, Jalan. Damn you for being a fekkin heroooo.
(hide spoiler)]

STILL CHAPTER 17
Love this sentence. LOVE it.

"I climbed and the monster climbed beneath me."

Was ever the essence of things more elegantly redacted?
Perhaps, yes. But not in recent times, I don't think. And deffo not in fewer words.
You told me you wanted notions on war? Peace? I was waiting for you to transcribe and post your PM...but the list grows...
Identity? Self-knowledge? The human condition?
I have no clever words and long expositions for you...everything that can be said about these things has been said by wiser heads than mine. But look here too. Look how he has said it all.
Now extrapolate.
Swap your monsters.
Climb towards something else.
Or do not.
Underneath they are all the same.
And we are only ever travelling in one direction.
And there! Think about it and you'll find he has said something about mortality too.
Does anyone else, here at least, read Mark Lawrence like we do, Virginie?

STILL CHAPTER 17 (are you realising that mebbe I like this chapter too much?)
(view spoiler)[....and the sentences that follow. The gargoyle that falls! Esp the fatalistic beauty of the sentence "it had been waiting to fall since before I was born."
Also 😂😂😂😂 at the flesh-stone samdwich!!
The room. The brief respite. The calculations of the Silent Sister and how we NOW realise she has been helping all along.
(hide spoiler)]

Ok...yeah...I think I swallowed the chapter. Heh. I'd typically apo for the length of my post, ad nauseum, if it were anyone else...but then the question stands...
Does anyone else read Mark Lawrence like YOU do, Virginie??
Btw for thematic expositions, I can't wait for you to read Malazan. You should soooo blog your read, my dahlin', and then I can follow your posts devotedly, dedicatedly, desperately...ahem!

Still n all... after this....there better be a lot less I wanna say about the next few chapters.
Hehehehehe. Ouch!

[Zaara]

CHAPTER 18
(view spoiler)[
"Still I hoped Martus had survived. How else would I take credit for it at every opportunity for the rest of our lives?"

Not... I love you, bro and I'm worried about you. Never that. Men! Jalan
😂😂😂😂
And the whole scene with sub-captain Pareto or whatever his name is+ @Uncle Hertet's...these idiots are fukkin surreal...there's a ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE at your gates, you blitherin' t!ts...but y'all are playing dress-up and court games and hey diddle diddle...
Seriously???

(hide spoiler)]

NON-SPOILER
Ok I have a totally creepy relapse and now talk about CH 17 AGAIN 😁😂 so the name of the gate-guard is Ronaldo Dahl (typing abt Sub-Captain Pareto reminded me of it) and I love how there's a tip of the hat to Roald Dahl (reading to Celym perhaps...don't you jezzt awwwwww when Dads read to their kids? #cutes) and later there's a bit of a nod to Shakespeare's The Two Gentlemen of Verona...wonder how amny of these I misse. Love when authors do that. I know GRRM sprimkles a lot of Lovecraftian riffs thru his work which *whoosh* bcuz me no wead howwor (see how I did a Cousin Woland impwession there?)

CHAPTER 19
Non-spoiler quote for @Anni.
ANNI DO NOT OPEN AT NIGHT...THIS IS A SHORT BUT VERY SCARY ONE
(view spoiler)[
"Shadows grew longer, twitching with possibility."
(hide spoiler)]
Yeah. I'm not sleeping tonight.
For @both of you....
...once upon a time ok when I was new here I read this book Low Town and there was this totally creepy scene QUEASINESS ALERT (view spoiler)[with a carapaced bug monster totally ripping apart a guy and it also had an exploding eyeball....yeah Virginie...ewwwww (hide spoiler)] That scene was !@&@ bcuz it was very descriptive and gross. I never forgot it but this is somehow scarier bcuz of the vagueness of the nameless horror, yeah?
What kinda scary scares you more?

Anyway...just after the above sentence Gin there is one more..."colours died...." HARRY POTTER COMPARATIVE SPOILER(view spoiler)[ Totally reminded me of dementors...would tou agree? (hide spoiler)]

And just when we are settling into a nice long track (view spoiler)[ without Snorri suddenly BAM...there he is!
Ok there is a sentence in this chapter I don't get.
What does he mean by this:
"Perhaps the life that still persists in us hurts to look upon with eyes where none remains."
Or is it...in this instance...a case of MISSING commas?
😜😜😜😝😛
I love this maaaaan. I wish he keeps writing books for us until the end of time....I swear!
*pats ML on the head*

And here's something I DON'T like Jal for. Snorri wets the key with his own blood and tells him ok..friend, that's my sole link with the land of the living...that's my exit and you go now....leave me here...but I'm counting on you...and Jalan comes back and gives the key to Garyus? At the time I admired and applauded his choice. But we didn't have this info, right?
Jalan *massive unbelieving eyerolls* sometimes. I always hate when he double-crosses this poor innocent Snorri.
(hide spoiler)]

CH 20
Nothing much to say except (view spoiler)[ grenade daaaaahlin'
Hehehe...die MOTHAFUKKKAAAAAAAAA....dieee!
#ironpineapple
I love how this guy and GRRM give us satisfyingly gruesome deaths for the bad guys!!! I hate poetic justice....well, no I don't poetic justice often hurts far more. I love it, what am I saying? But when you hate the bad guys you jezzt sometimes want them to go SPLAT! or BOOM!
Which reminds me...I never did find out what happened to that Nathair.
You are starting Malice soon, non?
Also wooooof at the twist of Double being one of the slaves all the way bk in Book 1. You never even noticed them...wtf!
(hide spoiler)]

CH 21
(view spoiler)[
Nothing much in this one either xept yeah Zombie Sis has got Martus and is now fully born into reality...well, we saw that one coming from miles away... (hide spoiler)]

CHAPTERS 23-25 MEGASPOILERS DON'T OPEN TILL YOU FINISH 25
(view spoiler)[
On the road and..then underground again bcuz yeah...Taproot is...whooooa! Totally didn't see that comin'...
Now we know. Now we know how he knows.
(hide spoiler)]

END OF CH 25
What did you think of the confrontation scene between
(view spoiler)[ Jalan and The Blue Lady.

Also Hennan is a dahlin'...
(hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

*dusts hands*
This thread has now caught up to schedule!
Aaaaaand now (did you think I had finished spraying?)
Finally, a confession.
I don't think I will be able to hold myself from reading the last few chapters of the book in a chunk, Virginie...once they get into TOTALLY POIMTLESS SPOILER BCUZ WE KNOW BUT STILL FOR RULES' SAKE (view spoiler)[Osheim (hide spoiler)]
I will deffo try to stick to the timetable but pls don't hate me if I cave and read the last few chapters...
#cantstop
What I can cunningly do to resist the Lawrence is hide this book and only keep Way Of Kings nearby. I sooo predict its not gonna work.

[Zaara]

😂😂😂😂😂 look at how big the Chapter 17 post is...and that's with the spoilers collapsed ok...
I swear...lady, we have a disease!
I didn't even make the Hiddleston-Loki connection.
One day we should talk movies. Or rather you should and I should jezzt take notes like a devoted acolyte....
But now Ima head on over to Rebecca. And you...enjoy your week.
And 😘

[Virginie]

Hey sweety! No time to type the answer those posts deserve, I'm waiting to board the plane ;)

I'm not sure I'll be able to follow the schedule and post here regularly during my holiday so... How about we both finish the book at our pace, posting spoilers when we can, and then we can have a wonderfully weird philosophical discussion when I'm back? And fangirl like the obsessive ML readers that we are? ;D :D

[Zaara]

Fine by me!

Amd regarding this:

Virginie wrote: "Hey sweety! No time to type the answer those posts deserve, I'm waiting to board the plane ;)"

Like I said at the start...the threadbombs are for when you come back. Just forget abt them till you have the time.

[Zaara]

So I know you're not there but are mebbe tanking up on paella and gabbing on Sanderson and perhaps walking thru the Alhambra??? but....
I'm missing you...😜😝😂 so I thought I will come here N just say I finished the book but am holding my ending spoilers till you return.

+ just so this comment isn't totally pointless...and tis only fair, since Lawrence visited the Sanderson thread... that I now post here abt Samderson....

NON-PLOT ENDING SPOILER + SANDERSON PUN IN VERY BAD TASTE
(view spoiler)[ Wouldn't Jalan Kendeth'd make a perfect Cardinal of a religion named Whorin...ooop...typoooo...Vorinism?
Seriously. It's called Vorin-ism. They're SERIOUS!
😝😛😜 (hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

Hey sweety! Haven't read a chapter of Osheim but I'm here!

[Virginie]

We're actually criticizing 50 shades of blergh Grey and drinking wine :p

[Virginie]

I can't open your spoilers since I'm on my phone :'((((
Btw, I was thinking... We should create a thread just for ourselves and our future reads. Kind of like what I did with Stormblessed for our PNR reads.
What do you think?

[Virginie]

(Oh, and sorry for the spray comments. I might be a little drunk :p)

[Zaara]

Virginie wrote: "(Oh, and sorry for the spray comments. I might be a little drunk :p)"

And that is the best kind of philosophizing...
X my heart...
Now I haven't imbibed of the juice of the grapebeen sauced since that memorably cringe-y night in October, I don't think.

Wait...wait...wait..you have a PNR thread with Stormblessed? How did I miss this develoment? I swear my shyteful account and shared system....aaaargh!
I only saw the Armoury thread with Dragonchild but..wow...sorry can I be totally impolite and self-invite myself? may I join? I haven't read any PNR so (if its cool with Diana) + when you both finish your current trilogy?? Please choose a nice standalone/small series and I would love to read PNR with you. But after June ok?
Heh, you are becoming quite a thread specialist, aren't you? Sure...pick a series/a genre and we can soooo have our own Castle Dread...don't we have to ask permission from someone Mod-ular first?
ADDITIONAL IDEA: we need to coordinate our drumken posts someday...but let's keep that kind of interestingness to our trackers/the obscurity thread/mebbe even outside the grp.
In the immortal words of our gal Jo: Draco dormiens nunquam....

[Zaara]

Virginie wrote: "We're actually criticizing 50 shades of blergh Grey and drinking wine :p"

You should transcribe that convo on here
;-)
Not that it would make sense since I haven't read the books/watched the watch,,,but...broad brushstrokes...
😁

EDIT: ELJ is a shrewd businesswoman, if nothing else. She was never selling high literature, Gin. There's brain there. It is just, perhaps, not on the page. Or perhaps, it is everywhere. On all the pages. In the choice of what NOT to be???
I find there is great (commercial) power and some measure of profundity in mediocrity.
PURELY IMO
(view spoiler)[It's what props up the great institution of holy matrimony. (hide spoiler)]
But still...let's get very drunk and bleaaaaaaargh 😜😝😛 at the yuck daaaaahlin'.
We NEED Beste here now!

[Anni]

Ah, you know if you're going to build a castle, I will be there as your House Ghost ;)

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "Wait...wait...wait..you have a PNR thread with Stormblessed? How did I miss this develoment? I swear my shyteful account and shared system....aaaargh!"

Yup! Here's the link:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Join us :D
We're reading the Georgina Kincaid series. We've only read book 1 (out of 6) so you can catch up. It's a really short read.
We're reading book 2 at the end of the month but I don't think Diana will mind waiting for you to catch up :)

About our thread... I'll ask Niki if I can set it up. We did it for the PNR reads and the Bookburners episodes (with Iain) so it should be good. And I'll call it Castle Dread. Yup. Love that name.

[Zaara]

No no...😂😂😂 just...Virginie....jezzt...wait a bit...ok...

@Anni...no castle is complete without a ghost...what kind of ghost will you be?? Let's see...the sweet Casper kind or the terrifying scary kind or the hauntingly tragic kind or the funny kind? Or some kind that I haven't yet thought of....

[Anni]

Sad but true, I think I'm the clumsy kind :D That would make me funny, tragic and scary at the same time, for example when I'm get lodget halfway inside a wall or something (usually impossible for ghosts) like this 😂

[Virginie]

I'M BACK!
Expect spray comments over the new few days!

[Zaara]

Woop! The ghost and I rejoice REJOIIIICE!
Seriously, what is in this coffee??
I'm so corny and suspecting Tien....
:-( i'm evil

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "Woop! The ghost and I rejoice REJOIIIICE!
Seriously, what is in this coffee??
I'm so corny and suspecting Tien....
:-( i'm evil"

🤣🤣🤣

[Virginie]

I probably already asked you but... Did you read Red Sister with the group?
I was looking at my BR tracker and thinking I probably won't be able to make it to the Grey Sister read. Also, I want to re-read Red Sister before and I definitely DO NOT have the time for that right now.
So... Maybe we could read the series together later? :D If you're not joining the current BR, that is.
#MLreadingpartner

[Zaara]

No I didn't. Now be kind to my po' li'l heart...Virignie darlin'....was there ever really a question???
Of COURSE I shall 😀😜😝😂
But truth told, don't you think we need a bit of a break from the Lawrence?
#blasphemy I knowwwww....but I've done five ML books b2b and am starting the sixth.
Couple months?
June and July I am reading Abercrombie with *waves* Laura and Strange and Norrell (if the damn thign ever gets scheduled, that is) and Deerskin and...
August??
And what did you think of the ending to Oshiem?? I'm waaaaaiting for you to get there.
Hope your weekend was good.

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "But truth told, don't you think we need a bit of a break from the Lawrence? "

Oh, yes, definitely! That's why I wrote a vague 'later' ;)

Has a nice week-end, thanks! I wanted to hike a little bit to purge all that food and alcohol I consumed in Spain but... It rained. Lightning and thunder. So I read and watched TV-shows :p

I finished Osheim Friday , you can post those spoilers :p I'm actually not sure what to make of that ending... I went so intense into the middle of the book that I felt it was anticlimactic.

[Zaara]

@Gin...I hated the ending chapters...the ending...it funked everythin'....such a bloody goddamn mess...guess you are feeling the same but were too polite to say?
Were you? Why?
😂😂😂 but....I gotta log out now. Its a shared comp and my timeslot is up...
I'll come bk tonite and post...

[Virginie]

Ok, fine, I HATED the ending! I don't know why I hesitated to say so. Maybe because I'm at work (where did my holidays go?!? :'( ) and being all polite 'cause of that :p

I was so pissed off when reading the last chapter. I actually had to stop reading in the plane. I must have looked real' murderous 'cause the flight attendants were eyeing me suspiciously xD

[Zaara]

Hehehe...I was in a wretched pout abt WoK wholebook spoiler (view spoiler)[ the stinkimg betrayal + and ensuing loss of thousands of lives + now the friggin' Shardblade is all abt Sadeas? I still can't believe this...I STILL can't believe it, Jan...and (most importantly) now I have to brace myself for the oncoming death (or worse?) of my fave char...in the Stormlight Archives.... (hide spoiler)] so I can totally imagine your face when this happened to you with Jalan.
And since I am in a crudsy mood, I will now ramt abt this *hiss* Jalan as well.

SPOILERY ENDING RANT FOR RQW SERIES
BAD MOOD ALERT
(view spoiler)[
What a hideous jam.
Its like he just....there was so much left to tie up...so many loose ends that everyone just turns up...one after the other...and gets despatched...
I was all *windmill arms* why don't they all just stand in a straight line, collect a token and wait their turn while they're at it?
Blue lady...Edris...zombie sis...lichkin...oh and Loki appears...and
SO DOES ABSOLUTELY FUKKING EVERYONE in the entire series...like come take a bow amd smile daaahlin'....its the curtain call of a tawdry vaudeville offering...
+ all the beauty of the Norse mythos + the magic system itself was just leached out with that yucky cybernetic explanation....it was like...no I can't leave this to magic...it ALSO has to be scientifically explaimed...but why Mark Lawrence, why? Its A FANTASY for Chrissake...
+ Snorri goes all the way to hell on a mission and then just decides...yup..im content...bcuz they told him so???
+ then Jalan regresses back to his old playboy self? And just loses all that beautifully-crafted moral growth?
I think...ML had too many ideas and in the end it just turned into a yucky soup with too many ingredients. And he was like...yeah fukk this...

Jere's the thing...
Why did he give us such a good trilogy and then ruin it like this in the last six chapters?
😔
(hide spoiler)]
What do you say?

[Virginie]

ENDING SPOILERS (view spoiler)[

I agree with everything you say... Every plot line, so carefully constructed and woven with others over the whole trilogy... Bam, all resolved in the blink of an eye. So anti-climatic...

I also thought Lawrence over-explained everything in those last chapters. Maybe it's just because we took such time and interest at the magic system but... I don't know. ML built such a subtle and philosophical world, scattering hints and clues here and there so that the reader could slowly build an intricate mental picture of it and... BAM! He just smashed it. :'(

Snorri literally going through Hell to find his family and than he just accept their deaths? It's not that it doesn't make sense. It does but it happened too fast. He spent 2 whole books saying that YES, he knows it probably won't work. YES, it's hopeless. But he's going to do it anyway, risking his life over and over because accepting his family's death is too painful. And then he gives us his "I'm at peace" bullshit?!? GARRRRH

And Jalan... I can't. Just can't. I mean... A CARDINAL?!? WHY?!? WHYYYYYY ?!? GIVE ME BACK MY JALAN, THIS IS A FAKE!
😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭 😭

(hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

😂 at your last line...yeah...it was sooo....that was soooo...
*wild incoherent flailing*
#borrowedfromtheSha

[Zaara]

You know what I wished for?
SERIES SPOILER
(view spoiler)[
i wished Jalan would have to make a huge choice between being selfish and choosing his friend Snorri. And there should have been some hefty stakes hanging in the balance. Some sacrifice to be made. And that HE WOULD MAKE IT. And chose Snorri. I kinda thought it may go that way....that he'd have to choose between the zombie sis and Snorri. Ok I admit it....I kinda thought the ZOMBIE SIS would possess Snorri...but that would have been soooo...sooo...stereotypical, no?

And Virginie...i wanted Jal to fall in love. The real thing....reali-o truli-o..the kind that raises and elevates and makes you want to be a better human being...instead of which he's back to being the uhm...shall I say butterfly?
flitting and sipping from one attraction to the next...all as interchangeable as the other...
Which i guess is the point of Being Jalan 😜😝😛 ah well, at least he is true to himself!!
😜 i didn't hate that part of the ending, Gin. But I hate that we were given a glimpse of there being more. His generalship + war prep, for example. And those scenes in Umbertide. They all showed him becoming something more, no?
(hide spoiler)]
OK sorry I will now stop bcuz we beat this book to death, hon! And now we are flogging a dead horse...😝
I'm empty I swear...I'm having a hard time findinsomething to say abt Emperor and usually I would have commented reams and reams by now....but the combined Jalan and Dalinar disappointments have jezzt...killed....well, hopefully reading Mansfield Park will change my mood and I will be able to consume fantasy again....

[Zaara]

So we are gonna read (eventually) Long Price Quartet and Book of the Ancestor together, yes?

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "You know what I wished for?
SERIES SPOILER

i wished Jalan would have to make a huge choice between being selfish and choosing his friend Snorri. And there should have been some hefty stakes hangi..."

(view spoiler)[
I thought Jalan would have to choose between Zombie sis and Snorri too. Or Snorri would have a 'his kids' OR Hennan choice to make.

About Lisa & Jalan... I actually thought Barras was dead. So Jalan, coming back from Osheim, would accompany her through her grief and use that time to woo her. That would have been so ironic, since that's how Barras got close to her in the first place (after Jal's presumed death) (hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

Timeline with Broken Empire: (view spoiler)[

Osheim's ending is taking place slighty before Emperor of Thorns'. I remember some comment of the Red Queen that Congression was to take place 'in a month's time'. So... I guess she went there after her victory in Slov.

She knows the Wheel of Osheim (the physical one) is shut down. There was a lot of talk about how it's only delaying the end of the world, not stopping it. And that's where you see that the Red Queen really planned it all... She KNOWS how it all works. She KNOWS that if Jorg becomes the Emperor, he'll have the power of the beliefs of the people living in the Broken Empire. All of them, having faith the Emperor can fix it all, actually gives the Emperor the ability to do so.
She KNOWS of Jorg's feud with the Blue Lady/Dead King. Maybe she even knows that Dead King = little William. She KNOWS of the prophecy saying that only two Ancraths can "turn back the Wheel" (= restoring the boundary between spirit and physical worlds = stop impeding doom).

And so, what does she do? She gives Jorg her votes, helping him move toward the outcome SHE wants. Clever and cunning old lady, that one...

Since you're re-reading Emperor of Thorns, you may want to pay attention to this. Might see clues. She and Jorg had a conversation right outside Congression. Don't remember the specifics but it didn't make lots of sense to me back then...
(hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

Builders: (view spoiler)[

The three Builders behind the construction of the wheel are Fexler, Taproot and Lawrence O'Kee.
- Fexler copied himself in a machine, leaving behind a data echo. That echo helped Jorg A LOT and steered him towards the desired outcome: become emperor and turn back the Wheel. Real (aka human) Fexler attempted to commit suicide (if I remember right) but AI Fexler stopped him by trapping him in a stasis field. Jorg deactivates it, therefore allowing human Fexler to die.
- Taproot created a data echo as well, though this one seems to only be a library entry contained in the box Jalan carried to Osheim. Human Taproot survived very long by periodically freezing himself in a stasis field. He only comes out of it to influence events. Funny how he helped set the board (having a role in the Red Queen's past, etc.) AND helped both Jalan and Jorg...
- Lawrence O'Kee created a data echo (and 'stored' it into a robot/clockwork soldier), copied himself into the spirit world (that copy eventually became Loki) AND survived with stasis field! WHAT A CHEATER! He's been working all this time on shutting down the particle accelerator.

See how it all comes down to them and their plan? Their trying to fix their mistakes? You could sum it up to:
Fexler: working on turning back the spiritual Wheel
Loki/L. O'kee: working on shutting down the physical Wheel
Taproot: working on creating/steering human paws to help Fexler & Loki.

(hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "OK sorry I will now stop bcuz we beat this book to death, hon! And now we are flogging a dead horse..."

Well, I had some more thought while reading but I can't remember those anymore... That's why I need a reading log! :p

I'll come back and flog that zombie horse if my brain decides to function again!

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "So we are gonna read (eventually) Long Price Quartet and Book of the Ancestor together, yes?"

YEEEEEEEEEES! Can't right now 'cause too many BRs. #overscheduling

But yeah, I def' want to read those with you! It'll be tons of fun, I'm sure :)

[Virginie]

Flogging the zombie horse: (view spoiler)[

What about that lense Taproot gave Jalan? Did he end up using it? I may have missed that... Is it similar to the ring thingy Fexler gave Jorg?

CRAZY THEORY: In Emperor of Thorns, we learn that Fexler somehow created a AI of Jorg to try and see how Jorg was going to react. But... How did he create such a copy of him? I've always thought Fexler used that ring item to gather data about Jorg. After all, Jorg had it with him all the time...
And so, Jalan was given an item too (well, more like put in his pocket). So... Could Taproot have use that to predict Jalan's behavior?

I mean... Thinking back on it... The entire fate of the world depended on the decisions of Jalan and Jorg, two highly unpredictable persons. Not only that, but those decisions had to be made on the spot and had sentimental ties with their past and families. I can't really believe Taproot, Fexler and Loki would put that much power into Jorg & Jal's hands without some kind of insurance they were going to make the right decision. They worked for millennia to make those events unfold. No way they would just leave it to chance.

(hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

Regarding the by now calcified skeleton....

I'll remember to keep these points in mind when I read Emperor, Virginie. I just started...8 chapters in so I am very late to see this message but luckily, not too late...
Hope your other BRs are going good, sweetheart...I notice you r racking up your Bimgos on top of everything else. I'm just lucky absolutely everything counts for overflowing if you actually own the book....
😂😂😂😂
Oh and I particularly wanted to ask you how you went with MAAAAAALICE? Didja like?
*evil smile*

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "Regarding the by now calcified skeleton....

I'll remember to keep these points in mind when I read Emperor, Virginie. I just started...8 chapters in so I am very late to see this message but lucki..."

The conversation I'm talking about is right about the end of the book, I think.