Wheel of Osheim [Apr 1, 2018]

[Virginie]

Yusuf’s nonsense about the Builders: (view spoiler)[
According to Yusuf, the Builders used two differents methods to escape death: going into the ‘spirit world’ (what I call Metaphysical World) and copying themselves into machines.

Those that escaped into the Metaphysical World completely abandoned their bodies and became something else. They shed their physical envelope and just their soul/essence/spirit went there. Because that place is a place of will, of imagination, they became ‘gods’. As the only ones able to think (since almost everyone was dead), they could shape the world as they wanted. But then mankind returned and started influencing the Metaphysical World again:

The Builders who left their flesh were as gods for a while, but when men returned to the lands of the west their expectations became a subtle trap. The Builder spirits found themselves ensnared by myth, each tale growing around the spirits, reinforced by them, weaving them into a fabric of belief that both shaped and trapped them until they could scarcely remember a time when they were anything other than what men believed them to be.

As permanent residents of the spirit world, they became vulnerable to men’s beliefs because that’s the nature of the Metaphysical World itself. Humans started imagining those ‘gods’ in certain forms according to the old religions and therefore shaped them. As the Builders changed, they furthered people’s expectations, strengthening the myths and legends and so on, until no one remember who they were as people, not even themselves.

Kelem was rock-sworn. If he has not died properly then in time he will go into the earth. And yes, he will remember. It will be a long while before he’s snared into story. Perhaps never since he is aware of the danger.

Kelem is one of those who went into the Metaphysical World. He lost his physical form for now and thus can’t come back. Should he be trapped into mankind’s beliefs, he would forget his little grudge with Jalan but since he knows that’s a possibility, he’s being extra careful.

Those who copied themselves into machines eventually died. Those copies however survived and are now the AI we’ve seen in Broken Empire. Jorg encountered and befriended one. (Flexter? Fletcher? Can’t remember his name). The most important difference with the other Builders is that the humans died. Only their personalities and memories were copied into the machines.
There’s a very interesting theme here (exploited mainly in Jorg’s trilogy). Jorg wonders if the AI and the human are the same person. He concludes that they’re not. If we are indeed the sum of all our experiences and memories, then I believe the AI and the human were the same person for a very short time. That is, the exact moment of the copy. But as their path diverged, they became different ‘persons’. The AIcouldn’t possibly experience the same things as the human (lacking a body and all) so it evolved. Acquired 'digital' memories. After thousands of years of existence, I’m not sure feelings and physical sensations have any relevance to the AI.
Within those AI, they are two factions that we’re aware of. Both factions are opposed to the Metaphysical World swallowing our world. I think they would die in that situation. There must be computers somewhere in the physical world hosting them.
Of those factions, one is helping Jorg in his goals through Flexter. (I’m going with Flexter, I have to call him something lol). The idea is to accomplish the prophecy saying that two Ancrath will ‘turn back the wheel’ (restore the boundary between the two worlds?).
The other faction is a bit more radical; since humans using magic is amplying the cracks in the boundary between the two worlds, they want to nuke us all. No more humans, no more magic, problem solved. That’s what Omar explains to Jal’ during their drinking session:

‘Master Yusuf just told you that they still echo in their machines. Copies of men, or at least they were copies long ago… They watch us. Father thinks they herd us, guide us like goats and sheep. So he has sought out their eyes and put them out.’
[...] Our equations indicate the Builders may be done with herding and guiding…’
I didn’t want to know what came after that so I took a gulp of my whisky.
‘…it may be time for the slaughtering,’ Omar said.

I think the ‘eyes’ refers to some kind of surveillance systems (satellites maybe). Those not-so-friendly AI are not happy humans are preventing them from watching/controlling them. So… BOOM. Or at least, they tried to but Jorg prevented their plot (by hiding the bomb Marco was carrying in the desert).

So… There. Godly spirits. AI. And zombies.
*bows and leaves the stage*

(hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

Oh, I forgot talking about the cat. Mmmh. In ML's world, I believe that, when you open the box, you don't have a dead nor a live cat. You get a very pissed zombie cat that will try to tear your throat for locking it in a box in the first place.

[Virginie]

Ok, I'm very very nervous and anxious to hear what you think about all this. I still have some thoughts and theories to share but I'm waiting for your reaction first :p

In case you didn't notice, I tend to obsess about ML's books. I spent a ridiculous amount of time thinking of all *this* and trying to make sense of it.

[Zaara]

Be home soon. Gimme a few...
Today is OSHEIM day...
;-)

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "Be home soon. Gimme a few...
Today is OSHEIM day...
;-)"

Yeah, take your time ;)
It's just that I had a new thought while writing all this. A few mental leaps later, I've got a wild grand theory I can't wait to share... That previous post was the very excited geeky part of me talking :D

[Zaara]

Ok first of all Virginie sorry for the lateness of this post. I'm here now...and you may uhhh wanna grab a cup of tea or something...😂😂😂😂

Lemme just say I’m awed by the amount of work and love you’ve poured into this thread…and because of that I wanted to take my time and give you full, proper and equally detailed replies not some random rushed answers typed out when I was stupid or sleepy.
5.30 AM EDIT: By now I am both....

Oh and another thing. This is a generalism for you to have and keep. (view spoiler)[When you come to know me a bit longer, you’ll find I’m rather difficult to offend. Even when ridden roughshod over. And it is well-nigh impossible to get me to actually win an argument. I’m diabolical like that, my daaaahlin’. So don’t you worry about things like patronising me or condescending. Don’t worry about going dark. Don’t worry about taking things light + anything in between. In fact (and I’ll only say this once) don’t you ever worry about anything around me. When alchemy happens between people, such things are too small to be counted in the reckoning. And when I choose to be, I’m quite the easiest creature in the world. (hide spoiler)]

But you…you Kruppe, you! All this time…you kept all this stuff HIDDEN inside ya and I didn’t know. I love that…but think I should have noticed. During Liar’s Key at least. But I was preoccupied, I guess, with my own petty concerns. Why didn’t you say or demonstrate anything like this there, sweetheart? Was it because many other people were there? I feel everyone deserves at least your mindblowing analytical skills and your love for Lawrence.

Yea, I too love how we’re picking up on different things too. In fact, (guess you saw this) I was just telling the people over at King of Thorns that I feel my cup has overflowed after having found someone who loves Mark Lawrence as much as I do and enjoys going thru his books in such detail.

As for the rest…
NB WEIRD, INTENSE AND PERSONAL PORTION OF SPOILER SELF-DESTRUCT IN 5,4,3...😂

[Zaara]

Re #45 ANNI ABSOLUTELY DO NOT OPEN

Re your post on CHAPTER 4 (view spoiler)[ I swear I had forgotten William was the Dead King…can you imagine the extent my memory of this series has grown foggy? So actually, for me the second read is as refreshing as a first read.

And yes, William and the thorns. Marked the same scene. For similar reasons viz. (TERRIBLE CLICHÉ COMING) that love endures. It is the only thing that endures even in such bleak and hopeless places. Won’t say more. But then I don’t need to. (hide spoiler)]

I’m all caught up and dead on schedule so thru Chapter 8.

CHAPTER 5

(view spoiler)[

First stop, second sister, thirteenth something? Huh? Ok my guesses:

second sister is either Red Queen/Silent Sister (whichever is younger) or one of the De Veer sisters since there are no other sisters mentioned during the series. Unless :-O Jalan has a hidden LIVING sister???? Oooooo I think my brain jezzt hexploded there. Wtf…ok he better tell us the meaning of this and gods damn SOON.

Transitions are getting gentler. He’s easing us into them with gentle forewarnings…thank you ML.

Swimming the Slidr river scene….I love that what normal people define as courage, Jalan deludes himself that its just “heat and warmth” that he is finding inside himself…which is why you remember, you and I and Diana had that discussion about Jalan and his deceptive appearances on Liar’s Key thread…

Also note Slidr waters have left him feeling more “connected” whatever this means. I’m guessing some memory holes are gonna be filled in soon.

What did you think about the tree of the undead possibilities? My fave quote was the one about might-have-beens plumb spang in the middle of that scene. Quite liked the mid-swim Aral Pass descriptions of death too. But it is 5.30 AM in the morning here as I’m typing this, Virginie and I have been talking to you most of the night and I’m still not done so excuse me if I can’t summon the patience to type out those quotes here. I will insert them later, if I remember.

Also, a Cardinal’s Seal will save Jalan’s sister? I hope that’s how it ends. I hope it ends happy like that but EVIL GUESS ABOUT SERIES ENDING (view spoiler)[ Jal will have to choose, of course, about saving his sister or saving Snorri or Hennan or someone or something else. He will OF COURSE have to choose between being selfish and being selfless. For once. Which means :-( for the chances of the poor undead sister (hide spoiler)]

Do love that he left Marco there? I rather think Marco is done and there is no more role for him to play in the story. Let’s see if I’m right. (hide spoiler)]

CHAPTER 6

(view spoiler)[

1. After all that cribbing in Liar’s Key about being seasick and the vomit….now he’s all “travel by sea is a miserable business best not spoken of…” also let’s note all the extreme cribbing about camels…later on, bet he’ll say he never had anything against them…

2. The part where Jalan is a callous jerk: ”the Broken Empie never had a big demand for slaves. We have peasants. Much the same thing, and they think they’re free so they never run off.”

3. There’s a bit of Jalan’s commentary on Jorg. Always enjoy when authors do this. Series crossovers and chars viewed thru new eyes. Man, Virginie, you HAVE to read Malazan.

4. Also, don’t you fukkin love how Jalan just ignores everything and lives life stripped down to the essentials of what’s important to him? Jorg on the other hand, is intensely curious about everything and I bet his head is full of rubbish stuff that he connects in unexpected (and somewhat psychotic) ways…

5. I just noticed this…the same name. Serra heheehe FourWays (whorehouse tout) here = Serra from the circus in KoT? Unimportant detail. I’m only noticing because I’m reading the two books side by side.

6. NOTE ON TIMELINE: Rather a simplistic one and nothing compared to yours. So I read today (and commented with Jess) in KoT about Jorg parting from Gorgoth and the latter choosing to stay in Heimrift. And then Jalan meets Gorgoth over there during events of Liar’s Key, right? So this fact used to (very simply) to reiterate earlier deduction that events during the two series roughly run parallel. I.e. KoT (Book 2) there runs alongside or somewhat slightly before Liar’s Key (Book 2) of this trilogy. Feel free to correct me if this is a jack-up on my part.

7. And so the sister, 13 riddle is solved and he saves her. I love how Lisa is SO pissed off. Fukkin cute.

Weird how I’m always calling her LYsa inside my head. I do this sometimes. Not often. Get mixed in the spellings of names and don’t see the actual name. A bad thing.

And also this: “My turn to feel angry and for more than being slapped, though I wasn’t sure why. The ingratitude of it probably. I’D LIKED THOSE CAMELS.

Told ya…told ya…after chapters and chapters of the camel cribbing….man, I love being vindicated…even in my small and stoopid guesses.

I am getting very sleepy now, Virginie…
(hide spoiler)]

CHAPTERS 7-8

(view spoiler)[

Ok now get ready for some cribbing.

He unlocks and kills a lichkin with the key? And it jezzt breaks? Or does the essence of it go elsewhere? I’m hesitating to use the words deus ex machina but wtf…I love that the key opens every door but wtf, now it kills every damn thing?? No likey.

And also mid-Chapter 7 and Chapter 8…he’s SUDDENLY no longer bumbling and cribbing but cold and mean and precise and masterful? Wtf. Too sudden and too abrupt a change. Did ML forget he was writing Jalan and start writing some other char?
(hide spoiler)]

And I still haven't replied about Yusuf and the Builders...but I'm wiped out. I swear....this is all I got. For now. Ok I think Ima grab an hour's sleep and then zombie my way thru this beautiful day...

Forgive me for any formatting BS. I know there's someformattimg BS but I dunnowhere...

[idiffer]

@Z
Oh, but there is someone reading... didn't expect that, did u?

[Virginie]

idiffer wrote: "@Z
Oh, but there is someone reading... didn't expect that, did u?"

Oooh, another lurker in this thread! Hey you :)

(Damn, I'm now very aware I went all personal AND geeky in this thread :o)

[Zaara]

*yerk*
But there are thousamds of threds and notifications. I don't even know how...

[Virginie]

Too tired to properly answer too Z. Will be concise now and write some big-ass post later
- I actually copy-pasted your comment into a text document 'cause I was afraid you'd delete it.
- Thank you for answering with so much details. I don't know why I went all deep and personal... I guess I feel confortable talking to you?
- I wouldn't have spent that much time thinking about this book, trying to figure out the setting and making connections if it weren't for this BR. Your enthusiasm over ML is definitely contagious.
- I actually think of my best theories on books/TV-shows when I'm drunk. Yeah. ^_^"
- I'm not being concise at all, am I?

Will come back with spoilery thoughts on Chapter 5 through 8 tomorrow. Gigantic crazy theory coming soon as well. Will again involve lots of typing on my part (and lots of reading on yours. Sorry. But not really :p)

[Zaara]

Virginie wrote: " I actually copy-pasted your comment into a text document 'cause I was afraid you'd delete it.
- Thank you..."

I'm not really sorry either. Keep going...and so will I.
EDIT: Deleted most of it like I said I would. No longer any need to reply to those portions, Virginie. Not here at least.
I swear, with thousands and hundreds of books and threads, I really thought we were alome here....guess I really dunno how tech works.
And how idiffer found it within seconds of posting. Really didn't expect that.

[Zaara]

Why has everyone suddenly started calling me Z?
Is this some new fashiom??
😂

[Anni]

I think it's so sweet that you actually started to extra-lable spoilers for me 😊 But actually I opened non of them because didn't read the book but want to in the future :) That makes my lurking here even stranger because I have no idea what you're talking about most of the time, but it's very funny still ;)

[Virginie]

Anni wrote: "Virginie wrote:"What do you think? :)"

I think you counted 13 twice 😂 And now I'm feeling like a creepy stalker, but I promise, I just take a look at the schedule because I think that's a great id..."

Oooh, I only now realize what you meant! I was looking at the 13th...
Well, it's obviously because we're going to re-read Chapter 13. That was all on purpose... *smiles innocently*

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "Why has everyone suddenly started calling me Z?
Is this some new fashiom??
😂"

Heeeh, I don't know! For my part, I was typing one-handed (using the other hand to eat chocolate lol) so 'Z' was easier haha :)
I need to think of a nickname just for you :p

[Virginie]

Re-re Chapter 4 (message #57) (view spoiler)[ Oh, you didn't remember? I'm so sorry! I hope I didn't lessen your enjoyment of the re-read. Tell me if I shouldn't add spoilers to Broken Empire.
(hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "*yerk*
But there are thousamds of threds and notifications. I don't even know how..."

I worked out a way to use the notifications that's pretty efficient (at least for me).
- I deactivated all notifications for group posts (Account Setting -> Emails -> Group Email Preferences -> None (did that for all groups)
- Deactivated automatic following of a thread when you comment (uncheck 'When I leave comments on other items, follow discussions by default.' right below the Group Email Preferences)
- Manually following threads I'm interested in (the button right above the comment box -> Notification only). I'm usually following only my challenge threads, the BR threads I'm signed up for and our team threads. You can see all threads you're following in your setting ('See all discussions I’m following' still in Group Email Preferences).
- If you want to know what else is happening in the group: the speech bubble next to the notif icon -> All unread posts. I read what I'm interested in and clear that window (Mark all as read). That way, I can easily see what's new.

That system makes stalking so easy :D

[Zaara]

Nah, don't hold back.
I'm always on the side of MORE not less Broken Empire analysis.
💃
I HAVE read the books so for me, its only ever a recognition, never a spoiling. Will you not like seeing the face of someone you love in unfamiliar settings?
Only makes it better...

[Virginie]

Broken Empire theories and connections not only authorized but encouraged. Got it!

Won't restraint my inner ML fangirl ;)

[Virginie]

Anni wrote: "I think it's so sweet that you actually started to extra-lable spoilers for me 😊 But actually I opened non of them because didn't read the book but want to in the future :) That makes my lurking he..."

:D :D :D
If that's the case, I'll label the spoilers you can safely open. Funny quotes that won't spoil you at all without context and general philosophical pondering. Mostly funny quotes.

[Virginie]

Something I noticed in Chapter 3 & 4 but forgot to post about: (view spoiler)[
Jal' had a reminiscing of Snorri's idiotic yet contagious smile. Later, he refers to him a 'poor Snorri'. Doesn't bode well for our viking, does it? Especially since Jal exited the Deadlands alone AND without feeling guilty for abandoning Snorri/searching for him. As if he knew it's hopeless...
Also, he seems to have locked his memories of the place again. I could be reading too much into this but.. He was doing better. Finally starting to accept his lost memories. What happened in there that got him to revert to amnesic-and-not-a-care-in-the-world Jalan?

I'm worried...
(hide spoiler)]

[Anni]

Virginie wrote: "Zaara wrote: "*yerk*
But there are thousamds of threds and notifications. I don't even know how..."

I worked out a way to use the notifications that's pretty efficient (at least for me).
- I deact..."

Haha, I do the same :D Seems like great (stalker) minds think alike :D Except that I don't use the speaking bubble but take a look at Discussions (under the Community header), then expand the group I'm interested in (littler expand button down in the right corner) and with 'more' you also get a list of unread posts. I klick the one I'm interested in and mark everything else as read :)

Yey for extra non-plot spoilers! 😁

[Zaara]

My notifications don't work, the dropdowns don't open. Additionally the buttons move everywhere and turn up in wierd places. There was a window of days when I couldn't log out bcuz the button had vanished.
There's a ghoul in my account 😝 suppose its bcuz I use a public computer owned by someone else and shared by a bunch of random kids and teenagers.
I'm hardly ever on it anyway. In fact I'm hardly ever online. And I hardly even use my mobile phone...like once in three days I'll look for the damn thing.
Bcuz even my phone is mostly with someone else...😂
How can you give parts of yourself to a machine??? That whole Facebook thing....extremely freaky. Extremely offputting.
Living nomadic and largely unplugged is extremely weird in this day and age but then I don't belong in this century.
People in my real life know where to find me at any given time. And how. Is all. For the rest, I'm the strange hermit from nowhere in particular 😂 who comes and goes.
Whatever.

I use most of your system on GR, Virginie. But I didn't know apoint #2 so thanks for that.
I'm only ever following the threads for books I read. I only get like 4-5 notifications and since my dropdowns don't work I sometimes reply late. If I don't log in for a week maybe I'll get ten or twelve bcuz I'm also notified for a few of the general threds. Otherwise stuff just....*whooosh*....like new reco threads and polls and Top 3 Thursday I find out about those days later.
And you know what happened when the scorecard morphed into the chat...I never even knew 😂😂😂

[Zaara]

Regarding Message 72...yeah...did you see my evil plot prediction? Its a double-nested spoiler inside the spoiler for Chapter 5.
Its weird how Jalan feels broken....behaves like ANOTHER WIERD THEORY (view spoiler)[ two different people sometimes.
*sharp indrawn breath*
SECOND WIERDER THEORY: but...but....but what will happen if Baraqel and Aslaug are imtegrated in ONE host? or am I waaaaaaay off target? Let's see....
(hide spoiler)]
And what about Hennan and Kara.

[Zaara]

Also I didn't post this bcuz I was too sleepy yest but WOW the scene between CH 8 (view spoiler)[ him N the Red Queen. Also, *applause* for the choice he made. Jalan has grown, no? As a man AND as a player?
A steeper growth path than Jorg, do you think?
(hide spoiler)]
I think we should post a nonsense Jalan Kendeth vs a camel quote specially for Anni...

[Zaara]

Wow 3 in a row...now I am a spray painter....

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "Wow 3 in a row...now I am a spray painter...."

And post #51 makes me a block artist... ;)

[Virginie]

Chapter 5: (view spoiler)[

I don't know why Jalan's dissing Omar's humor. Giving him camels of all things is a great joke :D
The number prediction... Thought the same thing. Either De Veers or Red Queen/Silent Sister. I don't see how Lisa De Veers could be involved in anything in the desert though...

Really liked that River of Swords bit. You're right, Jalan is deluding himself into thinking there's not a shred of courage in him. I love how he defines his blacking-out-and-fighting-like-a-god moments: berserk fury. You could also see it as giving up retreat, putting your life on the line and taking a stand against all odds.

So the river left him 'connected'... I'm interpreting it as his different persona finally interacting. It took him a long time to go from 'Panicky running and and waving of a sword' to 'Efficient and bloody rage' and finally accepting those actions as his.
You could be right though. I've considered Jalan schizophrenic but there could be more to it... After all, the Silent Sister herself declared he was 'two different persons' after testing his magic potential. Interesting!

The tree part left me VERY confused... When looking at the timeline, I realized this happened in the Deadlands... BEFORE Marco fighting with Jorg in Hamada. How can he be in Hell?!?
My theory: that tree is full of souls trapped in hell. It was mentioned that a part of Jalan's sister was being used already by an Unborn. So... We know Marco (real world Marco) is some kind of robot controlled by the 'Builders' ghosts' (AI). There was some talk in Liar's Key about using human flesh to cover those clockwork soldiers. Could Marco's soul (at some point) have been trapped in Hell (with a necromancer sword, like Edris Dean's?) without actually killing him? Leaving his body to be used to create a very convincing robot?

I loved the might-have-beens passage too. I hope he can save his sister but don't really see it happening. I have my own theory about the ending which is even bleaker than yours. Won't make any sense until I continue my explanation-interpretation of this world so I'll hold off for now.
(Yes, there's more! Told you I was a theory-addict)

(hide spoiler)]

Some quotes (Anni-safe) : (view spoiler)[

‘Don’t forget your camels, Jalan!’
‘Right.’ And with reluctance I angled my way toward the rear of the group being lined up, already tensing to dodge the first barrage of camel-spit.

The desert is hot and boring. I’m sorry, but that’s pretty much all there is to it. It’s also sandy, but rocks are essentially dull things and breaking them up into really small pieces doesn’t improve matters. Some people will tell you how the desert changes character day by day, how the wind sculpts it endlessly in vast and empty spaces not meant for man. They’ll wax lyrical about the grain and shade of the sand, the majesty of bare rock rising mountainous, carved by the sand-laden breeze into exotic shapes that speak of water and flow … but for me sandy, hot, and boring covers it all.

Jalan Kendeth, ever the poet and dreamer... ;)

‘So, what do we do?’ I stare upriver, then down. Nothing but miles of eroded banks stepping up to the badlands on either side.
‘Swim.’ Snorri walks past me.
‘Wait!’ I reach forward to get an arm in his way. ‘What?’
‘They’re just swords, Jal.’
‘Yessssss. That was my point too.’ I look up at him. ‘You’re going to dive in among a whole bunch of swords?’
‘Isn’t that what we do in battle?’ Snorri steps into the water. ‘Ah, cold!’
‘Fuck cold, it’s sharp I’m worried about.’ I make no move to follow him.

Jalan VS Viking's widsom (they're crossing the 'River of Swords')

(hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

Chapter 6: (view spoiler)[

Oooh, Jal's headed to Marsail (Marseille) through the Corsair Isles (Corsica? Majorque?). Closer and closer to my home region :D

Agree with all your points, especially the camels... Omar was right, he warmed up to the animals hahahaha.

About your note on the timeline: Agreed. I actually think, given the timing, that Jal & Snorri met Gorgoth and the trolls as they were on their way to Renar to back-up Jorg.

(hide spoiler)]

Camel quote for you, Anni:

God crafted these creatures for three things only. Passing wind from the rear end, passing wind from the front end, and spitting.

:D

[Virginie]

Haven't read Chapter 7&8 (I'm behind noooo) so can't open those spoilers :'(
I'm dying too though.

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "But you…you Kruppe, you! All this time…you kept all this stuff HIDDEN inside ya and I didn’t know. I love that…but think I should have noticed. During Liar’s Key at least. But I was preoccupied, I guess, with my own petty concerns. Why didn’t you say or demonstrate anything like this there, sweetheart? Was it because many other people were there?"

Forgot to answer that. You're partly right, I was being all shy and self-conscious. After seeing your enthusiasm in this thread and the KoT thread, I thought 'Oh, what the hell. I'll share my ideas".
BUT you couldn't have noticed simply because most of those connections I made only recently. Some even while writing those posts. It was all muddy in my head before I sat down and wrote it all.

By the way... Who (or what) is Kruppe? :o

[Zaara]

Kruppe (view spoiler)[is a character in Malazan. He talks weird, likes sweet things and is mostly an amiable bumbler.
Go not by the seeming.
He has...levels.
But y'know, reading the book (and I on,y read the first book) I don't think anybody does. At least none of the main chars take him as presented. They're always, "what is that guy upto now?"
So actually Kruppe tried but failed to hide his depths.

EDIT TO ADD: I shoulda noticed regardless....
Remiss of me... (hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

Virginie wrote: "Haven't read Chapter 7&8 (I'm behind noooo) so can't open those spoilers :'(
I'm dying too though."

I read nine and ten as per the schedule. I'll wait to post.
*finally starts going thru Post #51*

O and check your PM

[Zaara]

Speshul for @Anni...see how we even started pampering you with funny quotes one day before your bday...😝

Ch 9 Non-spoiler quote about babies.
Jalan Kendeth speaks:

Darin kept threatening to introduce me to my new neice, but so far I'd avoided the meeting. I'm not partial to babies. They tend to vomit on me, or failing that to vent from the other end."

Anyone noticing similarities between his feelings about babies and his thoughts on camels?
😂😂😂😂😂hhhhhhh Jalan!

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "Kruppe is a character in Malazan. He talks weird, likes sweet things and is mostly an amiable bumbler.
Go not by the seeming.
He has...levels.
But y'know, reading the book (and I on,y read the firs..."

Oh, I see.
I really need to read Malazan! But there's so many books, I'm scared :o

[Zaara]

Kruppe (view spoiler)[ is extremely popular among series regulars.
Some ppl here call me Kruppe ;-) just for kicks...bcuz #wierdo
I'm jezzt...sharing the fun...

Yeah, Malazan its big, its difficult, its fukkin scary.
But give it a go regardless.
Damn, i wish we still had that Malazan convimcement essay.
*remembers the jinx*
On second thought...
(hide spoiler)]
I obviously failed to log out and go to bed like I promised....

[Virginie]

Yeah, I need to make some time to dive into Malazan. You may have noticed, I tend to go all out and obsess about books. If Malazan grips me, I'll spent hours upon hours looking for connections, clues, etc.
#weirdo

[Virginie]

Zaara wrote: "I obviously failed to log out and go to bed like I promised...."

😈😈😈

[Virginie]

Happy birthday Anni :D

[Anni]

Zaara wrote: "Speshul for @Anni...see how we even started pampering you with funny quotes one day before your bday...😝"

You are both too courteous :) ♥ The quotes made me smile

Thank you, Virginie :)

[Virginie]

Read up to Chapter 10 and will do Chapter 11 & 12 tonight. I just don't have the time to post spoilers right now (impending deadline at work!).
I'll catch up this week-end and go into 'spray-painter mode'.

EDIT: You don't have to wait for me to read the Chapters to post your spoilers Zaara. I'll resist the temptation of opening them. Probably.

[Zaara]

Ok Virginie, I only read until Chapter 11 soooo....you have plenty time to catch up and commemt bcuz tomorrow I will be out all day + would ONLY be carrying/reading B&G. So no pressure.

Btw thanks for Comment 51, you are exactly right and explained everything beautifully. I dunno what more to say in to reply to that post bcuz uhmmm there’s just no way it can be said better/anything added.

In fact I primted it out and pasted a copy in my reading log so I won’t be confused next time. I hope this thread is saved in archives for when the next lot of people read Wheel of Osheim…hope they chk it out bcuz I know many ppl will have the same doubt.

A lot happens in Chapters 9-11 though they aren’t long chapters.

There is one interconnected spoiler in here…since it is difficult to separate, they are very small chapters and events are extremely uhhhh interconnected. Don’t worry. All that stuff is marked and double nested.

CHAPTER 9:

(view spoiler)[

Heh 😝 at Jalan’s reaons for becoming Lord Marshal…the uniform and the chance to boss his brothers.💪
Note how the Red Queen immediately notices the change in him + the broadened responsibilities. Despite him unreliably narrating how lazy he is and yada yada, Jalan is actually working quite hard as Marshal and has intimate knowledge of his brief. I’m surprised. Jalan…
:-/ wtf a capable manager?
(hide spoiler)]

Also, I knew immediately when Jalan had that sentimental interlude with his father that OPEN AFTER READING CHAPTER 10 (view spoiler)[ Daddy was gonna kick the bucket. NB…what Marco said earlier that the Cardinal’s Seal is needed to save the undead sister. It is now in the hands of the replacement Archbishop from Roma. Also, notice the scene where Reymond’s death is described. HIS could be the death (of the close relative) required to send the sister back from the Dead Lands (although we don’t still know fully what Jalan did/accomplished in there)
(hide spoiler)]

CH 10
ANNI DO NOT OPEN. BROKEN EMPIRE SPOILER
(view spoiler)[ end of chapter there’s a small Easter Egg for Broken Empire….copper box. Gholloth gave Luntar the copper box that eventually held Jorg’s pain.

Glad Gholloth gets his chance at governance. Let’s see what he does. Also, can’t wait for more of Grammy Red bashing it out in high battle-gear. Hoe we get to see a scene set in Slav rather than just hearing about it in third-person.

Also… at Jalan’s panic about the end of the world. Like it…literally just hit him then…😂😂😂
Git!
(hide spoiler)]

CHAPTER 11
Here’s where I really appreciated your beautiful analysis in Comment 51 bcuz (view spoiler)[ everything you said is confirmed in this powerful scene. Also…modestly bragging, I did mention Noetic Science…in the creepy part of the spoiler I deleted…I mentioned it in a personal context,,,but again, here’s why ML resonates for both of us…he goes on to talk about entanglement physics (same thing almost) although…I can only see the patterns of things, Virginie...conceptualise the broad outlines. After that, my brain just shuts down when it comes to the kind of analysis you wrote.

Asha Laughlin = Aslaug!!! Aslaug was HUMAN, just like you predicted. Wow! Bang on!

Is the machine he’s referring to…the Wheel of Osheim…a sort of super mutant hadron collider???? Builders tampering with reality = commentary on virtual reality, no? and how advancements in such tech can maybe take us one step (disastrously) too far. But then I’m just repeating you. I should just shaddup and listen to what you say about this chapter.

What’re the chances our pretty boy Jalan will have to go to Leipzig/Osheim now and *drumroll* stop the wheel? Uhhhm I dunno…mebbe bcuz the book is called The WHEEL OF OSHEIM?????
(hide spoiler)]

Fave line (bcuz it’s no great quote) from these three chapters + random story:
When Garyus says (view spoiler)[
“Makes you feel alive, doesn’t it?” but he’s talking about fear. About being “petrified” as Jalan puts it. What’s your take on this Virginie? Ok now I may get creepily personal on this one. But only after you reply. About the subject of fear. I love how his trilogies get you thinking about the big questions, no?

Ok now its my turn to be creeeeeepily personal and randomly weird on this thred…haha…I dreamed about you last night, Ginny. On;y…that I was a thief running around inside a castle, cloaked and hooded (keep dreaming of hooded and cloaked figures these days…prolyl bcuz the Broken Empire books are always staring me in the face from my bedstand…its starting to highly irritate but then…reading Broken Empire always brings out this flood of STUFF inside me)

Anyway, I dreamed I was invisible to everybody except you.

But (unfortunately) for me, you were from the police…and so I was running awaaaaaaay…heh I was running and running away and woke with my heart racing…

So yeah, a day’s break…I think, from Mark Lawrence. Pls don’t think I’m totally creepy or anything…

Last time I was scared like this was after an intense discussion with Beste on two threads simultaneously…Vaelin/American Gods. Btw you HAVE to read a book with @Beste. Preferably an extremely weird one. Even she has these sharp eyes and goes deep into things. Her analysis and take on things is always amazing and unusual. Whenever she and I discuss books, its always very (sorry to repeat) intense and extremely thought-provoking. We usually approach things from randomly opposite ways…and its like…Ginny its powerluf and magnificemt like electricity.

That’s why I keep wishing she was also here for the Mark Lawremce discussions. Really, I mean it. I’m sure you would have the same tempo and rhythm to your discussions. Good fun!
(hide spoiler)]

Ok…I’m rambling amd babbling agn. Time to log out…the cycle of not sleeping nights and haunting GR appears to be starting up agn…

Take your time with my gigantic spoilers. Seriously, they’re nothing as cool as yours, Viriginie.

[Virginie]

Zaara! I had an horrible day at work, followed by a 2 hours wait at the bus stop (damn strike!). I'm so tireeeeed. Won't be reading ML tonight :p

I'll catch up and post equally gigantic spoilers to answer yours this week-end. There's also a big post with my theories on the nature of the Wheel (and ML's endgame) being written! :D

EDIT: Chapter 10 (view spoiler)[

Some explanations were given and it goes well with my interpretation. I have a horrible feeling that everything's going to be explained/revealed in the next chapter (11) BEFORE I finish writing my post. If that's the case, I'm going to feel so cheated lol
(hide spoiler)]

[Zaara]

No worries. Tyt. Great idea keeping the weekends free to catch up. 🎉 to hear your Wheel theory. I've posted one too inside my spoiler...but its a simple one.

[Virginie]

Anni wrote: "You are both too courteous :) ♥ The quotes made me smile

Thank you, Virginie :)"

Well, we want you to experience Jalan's incomparable wisdom about camels and babies :D
I hope you had a wonderful day and plenty of gifts ;)

[Virginie]

Revised schedule:

23: FREE DAY
24: FREE DAY
25: FREE DAY
26: Chapter 12 + Chapter 13
27: Chapter 14 + Chapter 15
28: WEEK-END :D
29: WEEK-END :D

30: Chapter 16 + Chapter 17
01: Chapter 18 + Chapter 19
02: Chapter 20 + Chapter 21
03: Chapter 22 + Chapter 23
04: Chapter 24 + Chapter 25
05: WEEK-END :D
06: WEEK-END :D

07: Chapter 26 + Chapter 27
08: Chapter 28 + Chapter 29
09: Chapter 30 + Chapter 31
10: Chapter 32 + Chapter 33
11: MASSIVE BOOK HANGOVER

[Zaara]

....FROM ALL THE AWESOME!

[Virginie]

So… I read up to chapter 8 when I wrote this big post. The following chapters may prove me wrong or confirm my theories. In which case, I want to have the pleasure of saying: I KNEW IT! ;)

Anni: mega spoilers for the Broken Empire. Do NOT open! ;)

Nature of the Wheel of Osheim: (view spoiler)[

In the Broken Empire trilogy, the information given were quite scarce. It could basically be resumed to what I explained in my ‘the setting of the book’ post. I considered the ‘Wheel’ to be metaphorical: the Builders thinned the fabric of the world somehow (big nuclear war?) and wrought changes that allowed magic. As more magic is used, the cracks grow wider, which in turn makes magic easier to use, yada yada yada.

For some reasons, I pictured it as a bicycle wheel rolling down a mountain slope and gaining momentum until the crash. Which would be our world ending (being ‘swallowed’ by the Metaphysical world).

Jorg’s all journey throughout the trilogy had an unavoidable end: the fulfilment of the procephy saying two Ancraths working together would ‘turn back the Wheel’. This is what happened at the end of Emperor of Thorns: Jorg dies, meet with his brother in the deadlands and together, they restore the boundary between the two worlds. Because everyone always imagined that processus as ‘turning back a wheel’, that’s how it appeared to them (because Metaphysical world = place of imagination, beliefs and willpower etc.). What they really did was use their incomparable ‘mental force’ (for lack of a better term), will the cracks close and… Voilà. Boundary restored. World saved. Magic shut out of the world. People trying to manipulate them screwed. Ancrath brothers happy (and dead).

In the Red Queen’s War, we finally have more informations about the Wheel. With the last book being titled ‘The Wheel of Osheim’, that was bound to happen ;)
Now, I don’t remember if it was already mentioned as the Wheel of Osheim in Jorg’s trilogy… I only realized while reading Prince of Fools that it refers to a place, and therefore, there’s more to it that a vague metaphor.
In Liar’s Key, we’re given the crucial clue. The Wheel of Osheim is described as " miles of tunnels forming a huge circle where secrets were examined and truths uncovered " (too lazy to find the real quote)
You could literally see the light bulb turning on above my head: the Wheel is a feckin’ particle accelerator! And it all made sense then. Why the area around the wheel looked strangely like as irradiated zone. Why the magic is stronger around Osheim. How the Builders managed to fuck up the bloody fabric of the world. EVERYTHING! *mind blown*

There was only one problem: if the Wheel is a gigantic particle accelerator, then what the hell did Jorg & William turn back in Emperor of Thorns? I don’t really see them turning off the device from the deadlands…

Then I thought of ML writing a second trilogy in the same world. Why would he do that, if everything is resolved at the end of the Broken Empire trilogy? I don’t believe for one second there’s no endgame to Jalan’s adventures. And so, only one possibility remains IMO: there’s TWO wheels!
(hide spoiler)]

How it all happened: (view spoiler)[

We now know what tore apart the boundary between physical and spiritual worlds: the Builders turned on a particle accelerator.

I first thought of the LHC (large hadron collider) at CERN, at the border of France and Switzerland. It’s the biggest Hadron Collider in the world, in the biggest research center in the world. BUT it doesn’t work geographically. From Jalan and Snorri’s travels in Liar’s Key, I’d place Osheim somewhere in Germany. Based on geographical clues and phonetic resemblance (yeah, you really have to stretch it), my best guess is Leipzig. (Ok, I'll admit, I checked towns with a particle accelerator ^^)

Anyway, some future iteration of the LHC was turned on and messed with quantum physics, changing the role of the observer. Whether some experience went wrong or it was done on purpose, I don’t know. But the results are the same: ‘magic’ (manifestations of human beliefs’ and will) appeared in the world. Everyone freaked out. Given the location of the Wheel (Germany), it started a big nuclear war. And the device was never shut down. Add a few centuries, a global rise of the oceans’ levels and you’ve got the Broken Empire.

But it also had effect on the Metaphysical World: it started bleeding out into our world. The first ‘rip’, which is also the biggest, is the metaphorical wheel I talked about. The physical Wheel of Osheim (the particle accelerator) tore open a big gaping hole in the boundary between the two worlds, so it makes sense that there’s a spiritual representation of it.

And here we have ML’s endgame: shutting out magic from the physical world. To do so, you have to ‘turn back’ both Wheels. Jorg & William took care of the spiritual one. That leaves Jalan to shut off the physical one.

I pondered on that for a little while, and then read what you said about Lawrence laughing at himself and the similarities between his two characters. And I realized his biggest joke: they don't just have similar stories, they also have similar destinies. They’re being manipulated towards the same goal. Aaaah the irony. They both, in their own ways, try to free themselves and do what they want. Jorg wants to avenge his family and become the Emperor, just to prove to his father he can. Jalan wants to get rid of his debts and live the good life. They both end up thrust into their role by family, duty, etc.
Or maybe I’m reading too much into this.
(hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

Random thought about Aslaug & nordic mythology: (view spoiler)[
Aslaug is referred to as "Loki's daughter" several times. But... Loki's daughter is Hel, right? If I'm not mistaken, Loki's children are: Sleipnir (Odin's 8-legged horse), Fenrir the wolf, Jormungar the sea serpent and Hel, who lords over the land of the dead. Plus the two he had with the godess Sigyn, killed by the Ases as retribution for Baldr's death.
Did Aslaug get 'snared into story' and mixed with Hel somehow? I wonder if we'll see more of her.
(hide spoiler)]