Prince of Fools [Feb 1, 2018]

[Diana Stormblessed]

Dang. You jumped ahead of me. I'm still on chapter 17.

[Choko]

Hahaha! I am fast once I start:)

On Ch. 26 - this was pure comic relief! I found it quite funny:)

[Virginie]

Choko wrote: "Hahaha! I am fast once I start:)

On Ch. 26 - this was pure comic relief! I found it quite funny:)"

Agreed! I was laughing the entire chapter. I love Jalan's sarcastic private thoughts :p

[Zaara]

Choko wrote: "Just started too:) We are missing Zaara - I hope she hasn't forgotten about this read:):):)"

How could I, Choko?
No no, Za is right here but is scrambling to keep up on all the threds with absolutely no notifications + trying to squeeze Inda in as well + planning a wedding due later this month...
Now that my cousin is doomed to the Fate Worse than Death 😝
I'll get to this soon.

[Choko]

Zaara wrote: "Choko wrote: "Just started too:) We are missing Zaara - I hope she hasn't forgotten about this read:):):)"

How could I, Choko?
No no, Za is right here but is scrambling to keep up on all the thred..."

Ooo, good! I was worried:)

[idiffer]

Finished it. Heavily skimmed. This was justifiably on my later shelf: fight-travel-bromance just isn't my thing.

Mark Lawrence has a great style - he's funny, he's witty, he has original protagonists, he writes action very well, he adds a touch of mystery to keep you going, he isn't overly discriptive or infodumpy.

Unfortunately, that's just not enough for me. I can't identify with a manwhorish cowardly lying prince OR a barbarian. The plot had way too few answers (stretching it out to a trilogy was probably some money grab scheme). I didn't appreciate the nods to Prince of Thorns. Jalan's character arc felt forced.

[Choko]

idiffer wrote: "Finished it. Heavily skimmed. This was justifiably on my later shelf: fight-travel-bromance just isn't my thing.

Mark Lawrence has a great style - he's funny, he's witty, he has original protagoni..."

I agree about the Jalan's arc - it was very unnecessary... I guess he was just trying to figure out a way to connect the two, but it was not very successful...

[Diana Stormblessed]

idiffer wrote: "Finished it. Heavily skimmed. This was justifiably on my later shelf: fight-travel-bromance just isn't my thing.

Mark Lawrence has a great style - he's funny, he's witty, he has original protagoni..."

I totally to agree with everything you just said.

[idiffer]

@Diana
I don't hear that alot))

[Sha]

Starting~

[Diana Stormblessed]

idiffer wrote: "@Diana
I don't hear that alot))"

;-)

[Sha]

It's funny and I have a soft spot for useless characters. (I blame Rincewind for that.) Seems like something I'll like so far.

[Sha]

...but the character may be a little too useless. That's new.

[Diana Stormblessed]

Sha wrote: "...but the character may be a little too useless. That's new."

Lol, he is the most useless I've seen in a while.

[Choko]

But at least he admits his uselessness and knows he is a wastrel... 😉

[Zaara]

@Sha...oh good!
I'm abt twothirds of the way in and haven't been bored for a single moment but yaaaaaaas there is a difference between reading this stuff before being Malazaned and now :-(
I'm at the part (Ch. 20) where (view spoiler)[they just escaped the dead tree ppl in the Gowfaugh forestfire. (hide spoiler)]
Actually I'm a bit past Ch. 22 and will prolly finish the book tonight...I'll sleep in moro.

@Andy...you still haven't forgiven ML for deleting your comment, have you?
Kidding, kidding, I swear...don't kill meeeeeee...heh, I know you are very kind to me and Beste and sensitive of our great Mark Lawrence love. And i saw you recommend the book on some other thread and I was all happy....
Of course I totally agree with all the good things you said abt the book bcuz I'm biased like dat but you know what's irritating me? How he keeps beating us over the head with the "I'm a coward" mantra when its obvious that Jalan is sooooo much more. First of all, sexy name. Second, there's that self-deprecating quality of humour that puts me in mind of you, actually, Andy + do you see how he sees himself with such clarity, almost clinically? That's very rare. Most ppl lie to themselves all the time...such comfy cushions we make for ourselves....

@Choko...I dunno if you'll see this...you prolly four or five books ahead. What was your fave scene? Also do you like these two better or Royce and Hadriam? And this bit Choko...I thought of you when I read thus part...I thought you may like it and so I typed it out here for you to keep + also comment on:
NON-PLOT related spoiler Ch. 21
(view spoiler)[
Still, perhaps that's all lives are, all the world is, a collision of vast conflagrations, each sparked from nothing. It might be said that the whole course of my own adventure sprang from a die that should have rolled a five or a two, landing instead with a single snake eye pointing at me...
(hide spoiler)]

@all...a common complaint abt the Broken Empire world is that the worldbuilding is so sketchy. Personally, I don't mind it at all...seeing that it is OUR world just set in a far dystopian future...so why keep describing it?

And here's the thing abt history. It's damned unreliable since it keeps being rewritten all the time, usually by the ones in power. And therefore (and I'm not soooo NOT gonna start commenting in the nature of man and how it has remained largely unchanged over the aeons bcuz I'll jezzt spare y'all the horror) its equally tiresomely repetitive. But its also written in other places, as GGK keeps telling us in Tigana.
It is written on hearts and in minds. So for me (and yaaaas I am getting to,my point FINALLEEE after all that pointless preamble which I'm so not gonna delete xcuz just I jezzt typed it all) it is actually quite endearing to find the names we all know, twisted just enough for historical verisimilitude but retaining enough of their original character to make us smile in recognition...for example Aups for Alps... and that thing abt Lord Stoccolm's Disease for Stockholm Syndrome...

I haven't been commenting a lot on book threds and I'm feeling guilty so I wrote a big essay for this one. Luckily, everyone has finished Inda so (tho' I started it on the last legit day) I'm reading that alone and heh, don't have to be a complete loser babbling to myself on that thred. Tho' I will still go comment on there just for Mayim.

[Zaara]

Choko wrote: "But at least he admits his uselessness and knows he is a wastrel... 😉"

Heh! Yeah...

@Diana...you're still reading, yes? Liking it? Are you liking Snorri? He keeps putting me in mind of Hadrian....dunno why. They're actually quite different, xept for the size.

[Diana Stormblessed]

Zaara wrote: "Choko wrote: "But at least he admits his uselessness and knows he is a wastrel... 😉"

Heh! Yeah...

@Diana...you're still reading, yes? Liking it? Are you liking Snorri? He keeps putting me in mind..."

I'm already done. I just keep checking back for comments. I liked Snorri. A lot more than Jalan.

[idiffer]

@Z
My humor is self-deprecating? Haven't thought about it. Sometimes I self-deprecate as a defense mechanism - eases the feedback shitstorm. But alot of my humor is outright arrogant ridiculing, at least I think? I don't know.

No, Mark is forgiven for deleting my comment. I have since seen that he says good things (except when trying to do philosophy, I had a fit when I read what his thoughts on memory are). I follow him actually.

[Choko]

Zaara wrote: "@Sha...oh good!
I'm abt twothirds of the way in and haven't been bored for a single moment but yaaaaaaas there is a difference between reading this stuff before being Malazaned and now :-(
I'm at ..."

Ooo, I did like that quite!!! You know me so well! I am glad you are still going with it!!! We are here and your thoughts are always a joy to read:) !!!

[Zaara]

@Choko...Thanks for the encouragement, I wouldnae dare presume to think that but I try sincerely Choko. You keep your fires well banked and I suspect you do this with intention...but don't think I don't sense the vast hidden reservoir behind your gently glowing embers. I won't say any more on the book thred.

@all...yest I finished the book. I'm surprised at how much I'd forgotten and want to start Book 2 right away...that key...and Snorri....

End of book spoilers
(view spoiler)[
So now Jalan has the dark and (poor) Snorri is lightsworn. I admit it feels more "right" this way and it will be cool to see what Aslaug gets up to with Jal. She must have no material to work with in the Snorri full of honour except inciting him to greater violence.

Also, showdown with Grammy...to look fwd to! Should be fun. And he will have a lot of growing up to do in Book 2. Less sensation-seeking...bit more attuned to the responsibilities that go with his birthright.
(hide spoiler)]

Also, @idiffer....heh, hope you didn't skim the scene with Tuttugu and the (view spoiler)[ Whore Pox remedy. (hide spoiler)] Makes my "medieval" Joffril root gag sound restrained and gentle in comparison, no?
😜

Also @everyone, this book so could count towards Quest and Zombies for the A-Z challemge...
...but only one of them. I think I would count it towards Quest, since I'm sure zombies will feature even more prominently in Book 2, what with (view spoiler)[ the DeadLands n all. (hide spoiler)]
Also...
BOOK 2 theorizing...
(view spoiler)[
...Is called The Liar's Key + Loki = god of lies n mischief. I don't think Snorri should get his hopes up much.
(hide spoiler)]

Ending thoughts: The major thing that sticks this time round is that Petrik (was it Petrik?) makes a legit complaint when he goes on abt Lawrence's lack of worldbuilding. True...the brushstrokes are very broad rather in the style of Lawrence...who if he says the Red Keep is red and turreted and on a hill...leaves it at that (the Eyrie....mild GoT spoiler...(view spoiler)[and its 3 waycastles being the exception...really liked seeing the place for the first time thru Catelyn Stark's eyes) (hide spoiler)]

I stand by my opinion that there's not much need of detailed delineation required for the Broken Empire since it is largely a map we are familiar with. Mind you, I'm coming directly offa Lynch's first two...and HE is a grand scene setter...his sense of place is in the minutiae and is very immersive. Lynch pulls you into a scene, whereas Lawrence pulls you into dialogue. Not that Lynch is in any way lacking in the dialogue dept...
I'm just saying...the ML detractors have a point, now that my great love is no longer quite as blind...
If I were a star doler outer I'd give this a four. The pace never stops and new chars come and go, taking their turns on stage without the plodding or jarring.

My only complaint is that Jal is so much more than just a manwhøre selfcentered pr!k with custard for a spine but ML keeps beating us over the head with this. Once, even twice is fine, heck we'll even take a point well-made three times but I'm getting a bit sick of Jal's inner insistence on his own selfishness + cowardice.
Aaaaaand that's the SE speaking....

+ his deeds are so at variance with what he says abt himself (that scene with the locket!)...I think he is growing up despite himself, or rather events will conspire to make him...

[Zaara]

@Sha how're you going with this? You'll be getting so used to my essay sized posts for you that you may miss this one....
@Virginie...did you finish? Did you like it?

[idiffer]

@Z
I read about the remedy - funny, yes. Just not really my style?

Also, I think actions vs opinion is the point ML is making. I read a blogpost where he says both this and PoT have a memory theme - are we the stories we tell ourselves or not? Jalan tells himself that he is a coward, but is he really? Well, the book did not convince me either way, it just confused me.

[idiffer]

Just... everyone! Follow ML's blog, ok? Wether you like his books or not

[Zaara]

idiffer wrote: "@Z
I read about the remedy - funny, yes. Just not really my style?

Also, I think actions vs opinion is the point ML is making. I read a blogpost where he says both this and PoT have a memory theme..."

@Andy...never said it was your style...only...ouch, painful! I was reminded more of that Joffril root convo with Diana and the farming game and you were also there soooo I addressed that part to you...sorry :-( I hope it NEVAAAR happens to you.

Maybe Book 2 will clarify things for you. What were you confused abt? Nope...Jal isn't, IMO. That's what I meant when I say his deeds are at variance with his inner dialogue. A skunk and a rat would have ditched Snorri or (view spoiler)[killed him when Sageous said, no? (hide spoiler)]
Will you please gimme the link to that article on memory, Andy? I'd like to read it.

[idiffer]

I'm voicing my opinion wether or not you said anything, lol.
http://mark---lawrence.blogspot.ru/20...

ML just didn't convince me that such a character could exist in RL. Coward but not a coward... something felt off.

[Zaara]

Thanks Andy!

[Sha]

@Zaara: I like it so far, which is surprising because I really tend to go for heroic characters, or at least ones who are trying to be heroes. Then again, the fact that Jalan admits to being useless and that his inner monologue makes me laugh are both points in his favor so it may not be all that surprising.

It's not one of those books I read through in far less time than I ought to because I MUST know what the characters are going through, though. I can easily drop it for other books, and there has been no emotional connection so far.

It's probably going to be a 3-4 star book, depending on how the plot plays out. I still have about 60% pf the book left, so anything can happen.

[Zaara]

*Believes he is a coward and keeps telling himself that*
...but when push comes to shove...we all reach into reserves at times of crisis, Andy...some ppl just have deeper...more...of whatever...intent and potential for either good or ill. I suppose these were represented by Baraqel and Aslaug but in less die cut/good vs evil ways.
Dark and light are neither good nor evil in and of themselves, no? They're just polarities.

At such times (times of acute anger or stress or grief or pain) whatever is ALREADY in you will be magnified. Its how these things work thru your system and out of it...it's the most telling tell...how a person behaves in such times.
Jal isn't as bad as he thinks he is.
It'll be very interesting to see what Choko and Di and Virginie say abt this.
And Sha when she gets to the end.

I read the link.
The part about becoming trapped in the stories we tell abt ourselves...

[Zaara]

Gtg now, Andy...but this was a real fun book autopsy/discussion, tks for sticking arnd to talk to me even tho you finished long ago.

[Zaara]

Sha wrote: "@Zaara: I like it so far, which is surprising because I really tend to go for heroic characters, or at least ones who are trying to be heroes."

Then you'll deffo like Snorri more than Jal.
:-)

[Sha]

Zaara wrote: "Then you'll deffo like Snorri more than Jal.
:-) "

..see, that's the thing. I actually like Jal better than Snorri because he's more fun. It's weird.

[Diana Stormblessed]

Zaara wrote: "*Believes he is a coward and keeps telling himself that*


That actually reminds me of Jazal from First Law. Except I still think Jazal was WAY more of a likable character, even when he was an a-hole.

[Sha]

... I feel like I'm missing a lot of references because I haven't read the Broken Empire books.

[Diana Stormblessed]

Sha wrote: "... I feel like I'm missing a lot of references because I haven't read the Broken Empire books."

I didn't read them either. That whole section with the queen was just useless filler to me.

[Sha]

Okay so about be setting- (possible spoilers for the entire series but you already know it if you read broken empire? Idek what the spoiler quotient of this one is but just in case)

(view spoiler)[department store??? Trains??? Plasteek? Are you telling me this is not yet another medieval fantasy world but a post apocalyptic one???

Apparently it is because I googled it oh my god someone tell me there is an entire trilogy set upon discovering what the builders did. (hide spoiler)]

[Virginie]

@Zaara I'm here, I'm here! Been busy these past few days, coming to discuss now :)

About the Broken Empire (view spoiler)[
I agree with Zaara , no big detailed descriptions required here. I love the fact that we're in a ruined and post-apocalyptic Europe :)
UF series usually take place in the US, it's nice to have something closer to home. I do feel being familiar with European geography helps a lot though. Mentions of the port city Marseille, the Aups, Chamonix and its big-ass mountain (Mont-Blanc woohoo) and even the fjords of Oslau and Bergen make me very happy :D (hide spoiler)]

About Jalan (view spoiler)[
I actually like Jalan a lot more than Snorri. Not just because he's fun (his insights are hilarious :p) but particularly because of his cowardly-but-not-so-much behavior.
At first, we are introduced to Jalan, spoiled prince of the Red March: a womanizer, a coward and overall an horrible human being. The one thing he's got going for him is that he views himself with clarity: a fraud pretending he's the hero of Aral pass to reap the advantages that offers.
But as the story advances, I started wondering if it was not actually the other way around: Jalan IS the hero of Aral pass, pretending to be scum and a nobody.
He's woven so many lies around himself that you can't really know... Is he the man he tells himself he is? His actions differ greatly from that. Is he the man others (including Snorri) think he is? A great, fearless warrior? His great deeds seem to have been accidents though. The most fascinating thing about Jalan IMO is his defense mechanism: believe strong enough your problems don't exist and they'll magically go away. I think that's a very human thing to do. I mean, we see him forced to grow up by the events and realize than burying your head in the sand does NOT work. At least, not when zombies are involved.
(hide spoiler)]

About Snorri (view spoiler)[
He's big, happy viking warrior. I should love him. But... I don't. The truth is, I'm not fond of the heroic type. Or rather, I admire them but can't relate.
I like to think I'm an OK person. Not a great, selfless angel but a kind and loyal person. I'm also stubborn, sometimes selfish and really petty when angered. So as I read about those wonderful, strong and fierce heroes, there's always a part of me that's annoyed because such people just aren't real! I mean, I know they're not real, they're book characters and all (I'm not crazy, I promise :p) but those perfect persons can't exist, right?
Because if they do, I'll have to face my own shortcomings... Does that make sense? I'm not very articulate :'(
(hide spoiler)]

EDIT: Wow, that's a big fat monologue. Sorry :p

[Sha]

“I’m sorry.” And I was. I liked the quins. They were that sort. And soon they’d be quads.

I know I have been spending toouch time in Jalans head because I snickered for one whole minute about that.

[Zaara]

Sha wrote: "Okay so about be setting- (possible spoilers for the entire series but you already know it if you read broken empire?"

@Sha yes...
And now you have to read Broken Empire. If you love the inside of Jalan's head you're gonna love Jorg exponentially more + it is much the better trilogy of the two. anni and I are gonna read it (verrrry slowly) starting in March, she said...she doesn't want to put it off much.
Btw fair warning ~ I get very eager and despo when I recommend Broken Empire. I thrust it on ppl with fiendish eyes
*with vague twinges of my intro post*

@Virginie...I LOVED your monologue...don't you apo...many of us in this grp are posters of big bookish essays and we ALL love reading them and opening the spoilers. You make excellent points abt humanity, esp in your Jalan spoiler. I hope Andy sees them.

Regarding heroic types (the questiom in your Snorri spoiler) they can exist in real life. Not the IMPOSSIBLY heroic...but ppl who are a whiter shade of grey...

For the record, I think your candour is charming....
AND I think you're up there *points upward with wiggly fingers* on the articulate ladder...
If I started "cataloguing myself" (as you say) like that I'd get impossibly tangled within seconds.
+ Mont-Blanc woooHOOOO....

[Zaara]

This thread is really mjssing its dose of Choookooooooo....

[Elinor]

I dreamed of this book... kind of. There was a some kind of un-dead thing, not as awful as those in these book, but, well... I don't usually dream of books ^^ (I am afraid of zombies, like really afraid of them, so that may be the reason why ^^ even if mine wasn't frightning at all)

[Zaara]

Elinor wrote: "I dreamed of this book... kind of. There was a some kind of un-dead thing, not as awful as those in these book, but, well... I don't usually dream of books ^^ (I am afraid of zombies, like really a..."

Oh good...everyone's dreaming the books now!
Hehehe...

Its good your nightly visitor wasn't scary. Virginie had an American gods nightmare and I had a very intense and long-running montage of Vaelin Al Sorna rides outta the fog on a dark horse...guess the bit abt meeting the stepsister really stuck in my head...
But nothing, nothing beats @Stormblessed's Sabetha meets Ilona Andrews + a random stranger...
😂😂😂😂
Siobhaaaaaaaaan....you're next....ahaaaahaaaaa!
Also where is Anni?
Been a while...
Ok zipping it on the book thred and I will go find Anni on her tracker...

May Odin (or of you want someone less scary and MUCH sweeter like Freyja or Hestia) watch over your dreams from now on, Elinor!
Hehe...

[Diana Stormblessed]

That's hilarious. Everyone is dreaming about buddy reads.