A Shadow in Summer [Feb 10, 2018]

[Veronica]

Mayim wrote: "OK, I finished chapter 8 (I think) and Veronica, I withdraw my earlier observations [spoilers removed]

Also, I cannot stand the Liat girl, what an idiot she is. Her lover shows her the ultimate t..."

Yeah, while I am interested in the story (view spoiler)[the whole plot with the pregnant girl seems overly complicated. (hide spoiler)]

And I feel so badly for Maj. (view spoiler)[She wanted her baby and that Andat and Wilsin used her and sacrificed her child is just beyond wrong. I'm rooting for Andat to burn them both to the ground. I wonder what Maj thought she was there for. (hide spoiler)]

Mayim, I am sooooo with you about Liat. (view spoiler)[She's so focused on getting Itani/Otah to "better" himself, nevermind if he's happy the way he is. (hide spoiler)]

I also really appreciate that one of the main characters is a 58 year old woman in a genre where it's usually some twenty-something woman who is, of course, the most beautiful woman anyone in the story has ever seen.

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Mayim wrote: "OK, I finished chapter 8 (I think) and Veronica, I withdraw my earlier observations [spoilers removed]

Also, I cannot stand the Liat girl, what an idiot she is. Her lover shows her the ultimate t..."

You hit the nail on the head with Liat... (view spoiler)[first it's "You don't understand how much better I am than you"... then "I'm so lucky"... then "I'm not good enough for him"... nevermind the rest of what goes on... UGH!!! (hide spoiler)]

I think you'll like where the Grandmother storyline goes...

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Veronica wrote: "Mayim wrote: "OK, I finished chapter 8 (I think) and Veronica, I withdraw my earlier observations [spoilers removed]

Also, I cannot stand the Liat girl, what an idiot she is. Her lover shows her ..."

I guess "mature women" is another thing Daniel Abraham is good at... Avasarala is one of my favorites in The Expanse, as well...

[Veronica]

Ooh, yes, I adored Avasarala! I'd vote for an Avasarala/Amat team-up!

Just finished chapter 14. (view spoiler)[Itani/Otah has only been gone a few weeks and Liat is already kissing Maati. What a nice heartmate.

And Amat took out that comfort house creep. (hide spoiler)] Boo-yah!

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Veronica wrote: "Mayim wrote: "OK, I finished chapter 8 (I think) and Veronica, I withdraw my earlier observations [spoilers removed]

Also, I cannot stand the Liat girl, what an idiot she is. Her lover shows her ..."

I agree with your points. Abraham made me feel and the world was so unique and subtle.

[Veronica]

And, as readers, can we just take a moment to appreciate the fact that in this story poets use their well constructed phrases (or not so well constructed perhaps in Heshai's case) to give literal shape and form to ideas (andats)? :-)

[Scott , Karsa Orlong]

Veronica wrote: "And, as readers, can we just take a moment to appreciate the fact that in this story poets use their well constructed phrases (or not so well constructed perhaps in Heshai's case) to give literal s..."

And that it's part of their own being. All the little nuances which build the andats help build the world. The subtle poses as well.

[Mel]

Finished Chapter 9

Chapter 5 had the best twist! I wasn't expecting that at all.

Ooh, I have to jump on board and say I don't like Liat much at all. It already bugged me in Chapter 4 when (view spoiler)[ Itani is bathing, and she is stressed about how much work she has to do. He's trying to comfort her in every way possible, and she is so dismissive of his every attempt. The way she notices his stained fingernails emphasizes how superficial she is. (hide spoiler)] Then in Chapter 8 when (view spoiler)[ she finds out about Itani's true identity, the fact that she only cares about his lineage is so heartbreaking. (hide spoiler)] It's easy to see where her motivations lie, though. She was introduced in a sympathetic way as Amat's assistant, but her concern for class and station is at the root of her flaws.

Veronica, I also appreciate that one of the main characters is an older woman. It's so rare to find in fiction.

So far I find Seedless to be the most interesting character, especially his relationship with Maati. How the andat are bound by the poets, and their nature influenced by them, is such a cool concept.

[Mayim]

Iain wrote: "Mayim wrote: "OK, I finished chapter 8 (I think) and Veronica, I withdraw my earlier observations [spoilers removed]

Also, I cannot stand the Liat girl, what an idiot she is. Her lover shows her ..."

I ain, I am late, only finished chapter 11 BUT I LOVE IT ALREADY! (view spoiler)[retribution comes!!!! (hide spoiler)]

[Mayim]

Veronica wrote: "Mayim wrote: "OK, I finished chapter 8 (I think) and Veronica, I withdraw my earlier observations [spoilers removed]

Also, I cannot stand the Liat girl, what an idiot she is. Her lover shows her ..."

Amat as a protagonist is great; she reminds me Bujold's characters from the World of the Five Gods.

[Veronica]

I finished last night. I enjoyed the writing and most of the story but I feel pretty dissatisfied with the way things ended.

(view spoiler)[No one who was actually responsible for the plot to abort Maj's baby was punished for it. The one man who was held accountable was actually just as duped as Maj was. Poor Heshai. Meanwhile Seedless, who if human I'd say was a sociopath, got exactly what it wanted and Wilsin finally gets to go home (in shame but, still).

Otah murders poor Heshai, thus effectively doing exactly what the Galts had plotted to do all along - get rid of Heshai and remove Seedless as a power the Khai could wield - thus crippling Saraykhet's economy and potentially opening them up for invasion in the future. The Galts, with their complicated plot of luring poor, pregnant foreign girls, should take a lesson from Otah. Look at how easily he accomplished what it took them months (or longer) to do! I mean it's not like Heshai is some master of covert operations. All the Galts had to do was set a man to follow him around for a few days and he would have eventually led them straight to his secret hidey hole. Then send in an assassin to kill him...Seedless goes free...and Saraykhet's cotton trade falls. Or, hell, arrange for some "loose" tiles to fall on Heshai's head. Anything would've been easier, simpler than the abort-a-baby plan.

Anyway, Otah murdering Heshai...it feels sort of like the rest of the story was for nothing. All of Amat's work was for naught. The thing she was trying to prevent, the economic crippling of her city (because she knew the Galts would keep trying something), happened anyway. There was no accountability.

And Liat and Maati...ugh. They were both pointless. And here, again, I feel emotionally unsatisfied. I wanted Liat to have to face Otah with her infidelity but, no, she gets to slip away without ever even apologizing for the betrayal. (hide spoiler)]

Overall I did enjoy the story, the ending notwithstanding, lol. From reading the blurb for the next book it looks like there'll be a change in setting anyway so, sort of a fresh start....and hopefully no more Liat and Maati. :-)

[Timelord Iain, Tech Support]

Veronica wrote: "I finished last night. I enjoyed the writing and most of the story but I feel pretty dissatisfied with the way things ended..."

I read some info online about the next book... (view spoiler)[it jumps ahead 10+ years... so I don't think we'll be getting as much Amat as I would like... not sure we're going to be getting much of anyone except Otah, tho... Galt invasion will have probably begun... (hide spoiler)]

[Veronica]

Iain wrote: "I read some info online about the next book... [spo..."


Hmmmm, (view spoiler)[ten years? And Amat was, what, 58 years old in this one? Yeah, she might not be around. In the real world equivalent, period-wise, people didn't tend to live as long as they do now. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Finished with Chapter 14

Yes! I'm loving Amat's storyline progressing. (view spoiler)[ Before it seemed all too cruel that she bared escaped her situation under Ovi Niit. There was the underlying fear that he'd come after her, but now he's out of the picture. Her situation may be filled with new dangers, but I love the way she has taken charge. (hide spoiler)]

[Pat the Book Goblin]

The book is very interesting so far! Finished chapter 5

[Mayim]

Veronica wrote: "I finished last night. I enjoyed the writing and most of the story but I feel pretty dissatisfied with the way things ended.

No one who was actually responsible for the plot to abort Maj's baby wa..."

Stayed up last night to finish the book and I am both satisfied and dissatisfied in exactly the same points (except for Otah (view spoiler)[in relation to Liat, I entirely understand his relief and the need to get away (been there, done that). (hide spoiler)]

[Veronica]

Mayim wrote: "Stayed up last night to finish the book and I am both satisfied and dissatisfied in exactly the same points (except for Otah (view spoiler) ..."

Oh I totally think he's better off (view spoiler)[without her. I just wanted Otah to confront her (and Maati) about what super duper friends they are. (hide spoiler)] ;-)

[Veronica]

Melissa wrote: "Finished with Chapter 14

Yes! I'm loving Amat's storyline progressing. [spoilers removed]"

She was probably my favorite character in this.

[Veronica]

Patrick wrote: "The book is very interesting so far! Finished chapter 5"

Glad you're liking it so far.

[Silvana]

I am still at chapter 6 and I really don't like Liat. Hopefully she'll be more like Cithrin from the Dagger and Coin series. I expect more character development later. Itani and Maati, they have not grown on me yet.

I liked Amat though she was not as sassy as Avasarala. She actuallt reminded me of Clara from the D&G series. And yes, Daniel can write good compelling older women :)

[Mel]

Veronica wrote: "I finished last night. I enjoyed the writing and most of the story but I feel pretty dissatisfied with the way things ended."

I finished it up today, and found myself feeling similar on many points. (view spoiler)[In the end it felt like so much of the buildup was for nought. It didn't really make sense to me that Otah-kvo should kill Heshai. There was no satisfaction of justice being served. Not that there was much justice to be had in any of this. (hide spoiler)]

Seedless maybe summed it up in Chapter 7 when he delivered this line. (view spoiler)[
"Puppets. Puppets and the puppets of puppets. You should have more sympathy for me, Wilsin-cha. I'm what I am because of someone else, just the way you are. How could either of us be responsible for anything?" (hide spoiler)]

Seedless was definitely my favorite character throughout. He stole the show, advancing the plot, or addressing the philosophical or moral quandaries at the heart of the matter.

[Mel]

Finishing the book, I'm still thinking about the theme of agency, free will, and responsibility for one's decisions. Many characters are referred to as puppets, or the puppets of puppets, or claim that they have no choice over their actions. Seedless is perhaps the clearest representative of this, as he is a slave not only to the poets, but also to his very nature. (One might philosophize, just as all humans are slaves to our own nature.)

There is this great exchange in Chapter 1 addressing the andat:

‘The andat aren’t criminals. Before they’re bound, they have no thought, no will, no form. They’re only ideas. How can an idea enter into a contract?’
‘How can one refuse?’ Maati countered.
‘There are names, my boy, for men who take silence as consent.’

There are also moments when characters address the possibility of refusal. Such as in Chapter 2 when (view spoiler)[Amat begs Wilsin to refuse the contract, and he replies, ‘I can’t. The stakes are too high. I’ve already petitioned the Khai for an audience. It’s in motion, and I can’t stop it any more than I can make the tide come early.’ even though later he wonders, The poisonous thought tickled the back of Marchat’s mind - what if I’d refused? He pushed it away. (hide spoiler)] Or in Chapter 9 when (view spoiler)[Heshai-kvo is reluctant to perform the abortion. He had even asked the Khai to refuse the contract, but when it came down to it, he did it. (hide spoiler)]

It sort of puts Otah-kvo's choice that he makes in the prologue in perspective. (view spoiler)[As he later reflects: He was Otah, the sixth son of the Khai Machi, who had walked away from the greatest power in all the nations. He had been offered the chance to control the andat and refused. He refused to become a puppet of the system, and refused to become a puppeteer. (hide spoiler)] That's one part of why the ending left me frustrated. In Chapter 19 (view spoiler)[when he first comes to Heshai-kvo, he asserts that he's not Seedless' puppet. But later, when the time comes, that doesn't appear to be the case. The dread in his belly had suffused through his body, through the world, and disconnected him from everything. He felt like a puppet, pulled by invisible strings. Since his defining character moment as a child was to forge his own path, it felt like that was called into question. (hide spoiler)]

I'm definitely over-thinking all this, but just thought I'd put my sleepy musings out there.

[Mel]

Bonus round of Mel's favorite quotes/ Seedless and Maati moments. Am I the only one who was a fan of their relationship?

Chapter 3
(view spoiler)[ ‘I can’t think of any reason, Seedless-cha, to do your bidding.’
‘You shouldn’t,’ the andat said, and an odd melancholy was in his voice. ‘You should always do only your own. But I’d like to see you there. We monsters have few enough people to talk with. And whether you believe me or not, I would be your friend. For the moment, at least. While we still have the option.’ (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 9
(view spoiler)[ ‘Seedless-cha. I was wondering if I might ask you a question. Now, while we’re still friends.’
‘Now you’re playing on my sentiments,’ the andat said, amused. Maati took a pose of cheerful agreement and Seedless replied with acceptance. ‘Ask.’
‘You and Heshai-kvo are in a sense one thing, true?’
‘Sometimes the hand pulls the puppet, sometimes the puppet pulls the hand, but the string runs both ways. Yes.’
‘And you hate him.’
‘Yes.’
‘Mustn’t you also hate yourself, then?’
The andat shifted to a crouch and with the air of a man considering a painting, looked up at the poet’s house, dark now in the starlight. He was silent for so long that Maati began to wonder if he would answer at all. When he did speak, his voice was little above a whisper.
‘Yes,’ he said. ‘Always.’ (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 12
(view spoiler)[ ‘You’re evil,’ Maati said.
‘I’m a prisoner and a slave held against my will. I’m forced to work for my captor when what I want is to be free. Free of this box, of this flesh, of this consciousness. It’s no more a moral impulse than you wanting to breathe. You’d sacrifice anyone, Maati, if you were drowning. ’
Maati turned his back, running his hands down the empty sheets, looking for something - anything. It was only cloth. He had to go. He had to alert the Khai. Armsmen. They had to send armsmen out to search for Heshai and bring him back. Over the drumming of the rain, he heard the andat shift.
‘I told you,’ Seedless said, ‘that we wouldn’t always be friends.’ (hide spoiler)]

[Veronica]

Melissa wrote: "Finishing the book, I'm still thinking about the theme of agency, free will, and responsibility for one's decisions. Many characters are referred to as puppets, or the puppets of puppets, or claim ..."

All great thoughts, Melissa, sleepy musings or not. :-) That's a great point about Otah in the prologue and Otah at the end.

[Silvana]

I am at chapter 9.

This is from previous chapter: Does anyone know why
(view spoiler)[Amat was beaten by the whoremaster? I thought she was a VIP (hide spoiler)]

Mayim wrote: "

Also, I cannot stand the Liat girl, what an idiot she is. Her lover shows her the ultimate t..."

Actually I thought she became interesting in this chapter, she is still vain and silly apprentice girl but her being ambitious, well, I would like to know more.

[Mayim]

Melissa wrote: "Finishing the book, I'm still thinking about the theme of agency, free will, and responsibility for one's decisions. Many characters are referred to as puppets, or the puppets of puppets, or claim ..."

The quote you brought up from chapter 1 also struck me when I was reading it. And I like your analysis very much. I could basically sign it with a small caveat that I think you give Otah too much credit. (view spoiler)[Firstly, he was too young to rationalise or operationalise his decision back then. He rejected a system that demanded cruelty from him up to the breakup point and lauded him for the breaking. The boy, Maati, was the final catalyst, not a feeling that he has been manipulated. Even more mature Otah is not able to disentangle himself and follows the trail. Nothing in my head can absolve him for what he did. It was not a question of lesser evil, it was a twisted sense of loyalty and revenge that drove him. I hope that perhaps he will transcend this and develop further in the next instalment. (hide spoiler)]

Then, regarding the andat, (view spoiler)[it is not entirely clear for me how come a slave, a puppet, a being deprived of free will could come up with schemes and intrigues against his supposed master. It is not then the question of free will deprivation but a question of lack of freedom. He has free will but he is not free to go. This nuance makes a lot of difference. (hide spoiler)]

[Mel]

Mayim wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Finishing the book, I'm still thinking about the theme of agency, free will, and responsibility for one's decisions. Many characters are referred to as puppets, or the puppets of pu..."

Regarding the andat and free will, (view spoiler)[ I guess you're right that he has free will in that he can make decisions and schemes and intrigues for himself. He can decide when to obey and when to resist. But unlike humans, he has no opportunity for growth. Because his nature is written and codified like a poem, who he is is who he always will be. It's written into his nature to be cunning and to hate his master. Thus you could say it's almost impossible for him to not plot and schemes as he does. At least that was my take. (hide spoiler)]

In Chapter 3 Seedless describes his creation. (view spoiler)[ ‘And look what he did, Maati,’ the andat continued, spreading his arms as if he were on display. ‘I’m beautiful. I’m clever. I’m confident. In ancient days, Miyani-kvo made himself his perfect mate. Heshai-kvo created the self he wished that he were. In all my particulars, I am who he would have been, had it been given him to choose. But along with that, he folded in what he imagined his perfect self would think of the real man. Along with beauty and subtlety and wit, he gave me all his hatred of the toad-poet Heshai.’

‘Gods,’ Maati said.

‘Oh, no. It was brilliant. Imagine how deeply he hated himself. And I carry that passion. Andat are all profoundly unnatural - we want to return to our natural state the way rain wants to fall. But we can be divided against ourselves. That is the structure he took from Miyani-kvo. Three-Bound-As-One wanted freedom, and she also wanted love. I am divided because I want freedom, and I want to see my master suffer. Oh, not that he intended it this way. It was a subtlety of the model that he didn’t understand until it was too late. (hide spoiler)]

[Mayim]

I just wonder how much of this is the general nature of the andat and how much it is because of the flawed design (view spoiler)[there were innuendoes that the andat can even fall in love with the poet. Simultaneously, I understand that noting is able to overwrite the yearning to be free of the poem's form (hide spoiler)]

[Mayim]

PS I so enjoy these buddy reads with you Melissa!

[Mel]

I was also intrigued by some of the old stories of the andat, like the one in love with her poet. It'll be interesting to see what new andat appear in the following books.

Mayim, I'm so glad to buddy read with you again too!

[Silvana]

At chapter 17.
The story has begun to unravel.
I want to know more about this idea being bind and given form. Why only use for extracting seeds from cotton? Why don't you imagine the idea of fire or rain instead? Both are useful enough including in warfare. Or even a well of gold if it's wealth you're after. Why it has to be a person?

[Mel]

I'm guessing that those more powerful elements and ideas were captured long ago, but once they escaped, it became more difficult to re-capture them. It's referenced that the current poets have a more difficult time now, like dogs sniffing for scraps.

As for why the andat take human form? I don't know. Perhaps because that's the most relatable form for the poets to use into which they can bind them? If the poet and andat are linked, then the form reflects the poet.

[Silvana]

Yeah because they are more manageable form too. Well I will ask it in the Q&A.

And all the poses, are fascinating. I love nonverbal comm.

[Sha]

//joining in late

[Mel]

Welcome Sha, looking forward to hearing your thoughts. :)

[Miche]

I am starting this today. February has been a slow reading month so far. I am slowly catching up.

[Choko]

I will start this tomorrow too:)

[Silvana]

Guys if you have finished this first book, don't forget to post questions in the Q&A thread - you can copy paste your questions in this thread to that one.

I think we can start the answering session at February 28? Would be good to have the questions there already.

[Mayim]

Choko wrote: "I will start this tomorrow too:)"

OMG you'll love it promise

[Choko]

Mayim wrote: "Choko wrote: "I will start this tomorrow too:)"

OMG you'll love it promise"

Hahaha! I hope so, my dear friend!!! I am looking for a bit of a break of all the gloom and doom I have been reading lately...

[Miche]

I was a bit confused with the beginning, but I will blame the audio for it. It took me some time to get used to the narrator and the names. I am still considering switching the ebook.

I got to 12% and I am intrigued by the story so far.

[Choko]

Iain wrote: "Veronica wrote: "Mayim wrote: "OK, I finished chapter 8 (I think) and Veronica, I withdraw my earlier observations [spoilers removed]

Also, I cannot stand the Liat girl, what an idiot she is. Her..."

Avasarala is the best!!! I am completely in love with her!!!

Just finished Ch. 1 and getting my bearings in this world, so very little to comment on yet...

[Choko]

Up to Ch. 3... The "poet'/sorcerer thing is very interesting... The story of Seedless was very interesting and sad at the same time... I feel sorry for the Poet...

[Choko]

Ch. 4... I can't stand Liat! She constantly whines and wants somehow to impress everyone with her brilliance without putting in the work! I know people like her and they are toxic!

[Choko]

Up to Ch 8... I love this book! I have no idea what exactly is making it so good to me, but I am riveted! 😯

[Mel]

Yay, I'm glad that you're liking it Choko!

I think Liat is a great character exactly because she is relatable that way. You can understand her motivations. I found her conversations frustrating because I've seen that exact kind of argument before. "How can I help?" "You can't help. You don't understand anything." It's all too familiar.

[Mayim]

Choko wrote: "Up to Ch 8... I love this book! I have no idea what exactly is making it so good to me, but I am riveted! 😯"

Very happy to hear it!

[Choko]

Melissa wrote: "Yay, I'm glad that you're liking it Choko!

I think Liat is a great character exactly because she is relatable that way. You can understand her motivations. I found her conversations frustrating be..."

Haha! Exactly! As I said, I know plenty of women who have had those conversations and I always wanted to shake them and tell them they have to stop and think about it, instead of catastrophising... I always found that usually people with very little world perspective have the view that no one can understand whet they are going through...

[Choko]

Mayim wrote: "Choko wrote: "Up to Ch 8... I love this book! I have no idea what exactly is making it so good to me, but I am riveted! 😯"

Very happy to hear it!"

It is mesmerizing! I love all the little machinations and conversations. The world-building is awesome and the characters pop-up! Of course, I am in love with Grandma, since I find her to be the best written character so far:):):)

[Miche]

I switched to the ebook as I didn't enjoy the audio. I might restart it as I think I missed a lot of the school nuances because of the format.