OMF, Book 4, Chp. 08-11

[Hilary]

Was there not a section where Eugene while lying very ill tells Lightwood that he must not pursue Bradley Headstone because he was not responsible for leaving Wrayburn for dead. But then he talks of protecting Lizzie by not pursuing him. I'm confused as to how I ought to read this story!

[Ami]

Hilary wrote: "Was there not a section where Eugene while lying very ill tells Lightwood that he must not pursue Bradley Headstone because he was not responsible for leaving Wrayburn for dead. But then he talks o..."

Yes, there absolutely is, Hillary. Mortimer was asked by Eugene to not pursue Headstone. Book 4, CH10, page 720

[John]

This is late in the game and I'm somewhat relieved to be getting on near the end, but my god, I don't thing I've ever read a novel more cluttered with characters.

I feel like I'm moving about a room looking for the light switch and bumping into too many pieces of furniture.

[Tristram]

Jean wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Maybe, original readers read the instalments more than once ... they were probably not disinclined to give these instalments a very close reading when waiting for the story to go o..."

Maybe, for quite a lot of people, the films are more memorable than the books. With me, this is the case with German literature mostly. Last week I was in an exam and the candidate did a lesson on Kafka's The Trial. Now, I never miss an opportunity to annoy a German teacher, and so I said to the German teacher on the committee - the exam committee always consists of a headmaster and one teacher for every subject that is shown; in Germany, teachers have to teach at least two subjects - so I said to the German teacher, "Ah, The Trial, I know it well. It's with Anthony Perkins, Orson Welles and Romy Schneider." The German teacher's face fell so quickly that it was difficult to pick it up afterwards.

[Tristram]

About Riah: I actually wonder that it took Dickens so many years to feel that he wanted to make up for the Jewish character he described in Oliver Twist by creating another more positive Jewish character. And if I remember correctly, even when writing OT there was a change in Dickens's outlook for he must have noticed that the used the word "Jew" quite often, which made him liable to be regarded as anti-Semitic. In the second half of the book, the direct reference to Fagin's faith and culture occurs a lot less frequently.

Then there is another question I am asking myself: Is it not also a form of inverted racism to avoid representatives of certain ethnicities or cultures as villains? Gustav Freytag is now often regarded as an anti-Semite, which is totally wrong when you look at his private life. The reason for calling him so lies in his novel Soll und Haben where the prominent villain is a Jew. What is overlooked, though, is that his mentor in crime is a Christian and that there are also other, more positive Jewish characters in the novel.

[Tristram]

Hilary wrote: "Was there not a section where Eugene while lying very ill tells Lightwood that he must not pursue Bradley Headstone because he was not responsible for leaving Wrayburn for dead. But then he talks o..."

The way I see it, Eugene does not want Mortimer to prosecute Bradley for his assault because he is afraid that if he did so, Lizzie's name would be drawn into the affair, and that's what he wants to avoid - especially after their last meeting in which she pleaded him no longer to pursue her.

[LindaH]

I don’t think the “godmother “ term refers to gender so much as the role of the godmother in Cinderella.

[Bionic Jean]

Hilary wrote: "Oh Jean, I believe that it's in Book 4 Ch5 to Ch7 where you compare Bradley Headstone favourably with Eugene Wrayburn."

Oh yes I certainly disliked Eugene Wrayburn from the start, (as I feel Dickens himself did(!)) and 'twas indeed I who called him a lounge lizard. I also confess to feeling extremely sorry for Bradley Headstone, who for a great deal of the book seemed to have a chip on his shoulder, but be trying very hard to pull himself up by his bootstraps.

It would be being wise after the event to say I recognised his potential for murder! Just as I try to remind myself that for fully 3 quarters of the book, Pip was an insufferable arrogant young whippersnapper!

So when you say "honourable upstanding citizen" you mean Bradley Headstone through my eyes? Then yes! He seemed to be exactly that! Hardworking and ambitious, but of limited intelligence. And goaded beyond endurance by a lounge lizard! LOL

The interesting point is why he seems to be driven over the edge. Any one of us could be in his position, but would we have reacted in the same way? Difference of personality? A medical condition? Lack of a moral compass?

[Kim]

Somewhere in the book, I can't remember where, Bradley has a seizure, perhaps more than one. His seizures sounded similar to mine, from what I remember, so perhaps he had epilepsy, although why Dickens gave a character epilepsy I don't know. I went on a search (of course) and found a few places mentioning Mr. Headstone and epilepsy and copied a few. Some sources say Dickens himself had it, but I think that would have stayed in my mind if I ever read that before.

To coincide with the bicentenary of the birth of Charles Dickens (1812-1870), accounts of epilepsy found in his novels and journalism have been collated and analyzed. From these, it may be inferred that Dickens was clearly aware of the difference between epilepsy and syncope and recognized different types of epilepsy and that seizures could be fatal. Speculations that Dickens himself suffered from epilepsy are not corroborated. Dickens's novelistic construction of epilepsy as a marker of criminality, as in the characters of Monks in Oliver Twist and Bradley Headstone in Our Mutual Friend, and perhaps of mental abnormality, was in keeping with conventional contemporary views of epilepsy, but his journalistic descriptions of individuals with epilepsy confined in the workhouse system indicate an awareness of the inadequacy of their care.

Also,

Early Epilepsy: Experts believe Dickens suffered from mild epilepsy, based on some of the writer’s journal entries in which he described his symptoms with surprising medical accuracy. He also gave three of his main characters—Monks from Oliver Twist, Guster from Bleak House, and Bradley Headstone of Our Mutual Friend—the same medical condition.

[Bionic Jean]

Tristram wrote: "Is it not also a form of inverted racism to avoid representatives of certain ethnicities or cultures as villains? ..."

Yes, I noticed this as a tacit assumption, particularly in the article Ami linked to: "Dickens and Jews: An Uncomfortable Issue"...

"Dickens created Riah, a compassionate Jew who works for a Christian money lender.

But even the creation of Riah is suspect. To create a good Jew to offset a bad Jew is more transparent than contrite."

Suspect? What actually is suspect to me here is the assumption that the "Christian money lender" is a good egg - ie. morally pure. Does this describe the Fledgeby we know and love?

The whole article seems a bit off the mark. It continues ...

"Moreover, Riah is depicted as effeminate and by no means heroic. His creation hardly rectifies the overwhelming example of Fagin."

"Effeminate"? Did I miss something? "Godmother" is surely a fairy tale reference, as Linda suggests. And anyway, what if he were, as Hilary said?

"Overwhelming"? What I have quoted is the sum total of his critique of Riah! The quotations above of the positive depiction of Riah in Our Mutual Friend are more than a match for anything derogatory in Oliver Twist.

Perhaps the original readers, whom Tristram thinks probably read each installment repeatedly, while waiting for the next, would have disagreed with Mr. John O’Neill.

[Bionic Jean]

Excellent! The world makes sense once more ... thanks Kim :)

And thank you too, as I must have said before (but not often enough!) for all the enormous amount of research and painstaking pasting of illustrations. It's greatly appreciated :)

[Peter]

Kim wrote: "Somewhere in the book, I can't remember where, Bradley has a seizure, perhaps more than one. His seizures sounded similar to mine, from what I remember, so perhaps he had epilepsy, although why Dic..."

Kim

Thanks for the information. It helps clear up some nagging issues.

[Peter]

LindaH wrote: "I don’t think the “godmother “ term refers to gender so much as the role of the godmother in Cinderella."

Hi Linda

Yes. I also think “godmother” is a reference to a role model rather than our commonly used form of the word.

[Ami]

Jean wrote: "Ami wrote: "Dear Jean, Here is the article, Dickens and Jews: An Uncomfortable Issue..." Thanks Ami! I can't say I found it altogether convincing, did you? To borrow your technique:

"Dickens creat..."

I can't say the transition in portrayal from Fagin to Riah is convincing, they seem to be two sides of the same coin in depiction, differing only in their treatment of others...Riah is compassionate, and Fagin a sadist. You helped me realize with your "Christian money lender" comment, how there is more of role reversal between Fledgeby as the holier than thou Christian, and Riah, the supposed greedy Jewish lender. I do see Dickens making an attempt in giving the reader a varying view in how Jews were held to a different standard compared to other cultures in London.

By implication, the "Christian money lender" is a good egg - ie. morally pure. Does this describe the Fledgeby we know and love?
Exactly. The "Christian money lender" is supposed to be the good egg, but as it turns out Fledgeby inhabits the very stereotypical ideas that have been afforded to the Jews, while we read Riah to take on the role of the kind and sympathetic money lender.

"Effeminate"? Did I miss something? And anyway, what if he were?
no, you didn't miss anything. Absolutely...so what if he were! I agree with you, but I'm making this comment as modern day reader and not representative of Victorian mind...Right? I don't know much about Dickens personal leanings as to the Jewish plight; however, according to the article, Dickens didn't mind the tribe... he just didn't embrace Judaism, it seems. The author of the article makes the claim of an "effeminate" Riah not being able to stand up against the strength of Fagin, as if the effeminate are less than; thus, rendering Riah less than. I think he was attempting to show Dickens's attempt at seeking any redemption from whomsoever as a half-ass attempt in his eyes, as flawed as the effeminate comment is.

The author doesn't site enough for Riah in his article, you're right. It does seem as if it's more of an anti-Fagin piece, than a pro Riah or Dickens article.

[Ami]

Hilary wrote: "You're welcome, Kim!

Ah Tristram who could blame you! 😊. That music!

Hi Jean, I have a thought that perhaps you were not over the moon about Eugene. Did you or someone else refer to him as a loun..."


LindaH wrote: "I don’t think the “godmother “ term refers to gender so much as the role of the godmother in Cinderella."

My giving the example of the godmother comment is my own, it's the first thing I thought about when reading the "effeminate" comment in the article I posted. As delightful as it has been to read the posts about the affiliations between the fairy tale motif and "OMF," I for one, can't seem to comprehend the association of the godmother role to "Cinderella" or "Little Red Riding Hood," as much as it makes sense. I couldn't get out of a serious headspace concerning all things Riah, even the lighthearted and loving moments between Jenny and he to appreciate the fairy tale-like aspects.

I found great understanding in Hillary's comment in M49 regarding the godmother connotation. She writes, I read this that Riah was a caring and maternal friend and Jenny needed a mother-type and her father certainly was not there for her! So Riah was
In a way playing the role of both parents for miss Jenny Wren. Jenny's father wasn't the best representation of paternal love or responsibility for child, she could be aligning Riah with the more respected parent...Her mother...And what I would want in a father figure seen in Riah.

[Peter]

Ami wrote: "Hilary wrote: "You're welcome, Kim!

Ah Tristram who could blame you! 😊. That music!

Hi Jean, I have a thought that perhaps you were not over the moon about Eugene. Did you or someone else refer t..."

Olá Amy

A bit of flair. I’m in Portugal.

The fairy tale elements of OMF seem, to me, too frequent to be by chance. They exist as a structure upon which Dickens builds a much larger narrative. Names such as Riderhood, Bella, Cinderella and fairy godmother, and then the references to shoes that do not fit, relating to Bella, and coaches and other sundry bits and pieces seem to point us into the fairytale world.

The trope of a person not seeing or realizing the true nature of another is evident in Bella’s initial feelings towards Harmon, Lizzie to Wrayburn (but why she does I can’t figure out), the reader towards the mid-novel Boffin, and society towards Riah among others.

Understandably, there is no direct co-relation by Dickens; rather, each individual brush with an element of a fairy tale brings us a deeper appreciation to both the text and the characters and their inter-relationships with each other.

In our summary week perhaps the fairy tale world can be explored more fully.

[LindaH]

Hi Peter

I too look forward to our discussion of the book as a whole, when, among other things, we can talk about Dickens ‘ use of fairy tale tropes and Mother Goose language in OMF. Is this the only novel where he does this?

Trust you will be brushing up on your nursery literature in the near future.

[Peter]

LindaH wrote: "Hi Peter

I too look forward to our discussion of the book as a whole, when, among other things, we can talk about Dickens ‘ use of fairy tale tropes and Mother Goose language in OMF. Is this the o..."

Linda

To save time, should I read my first grandson (due early March) OMF first? Thus, he will get his Dickens and fairy tales at the same time.

[LindaH]

Peter

How about a Nursery Edition of OMF with just your highlights of the good parts?

[Peter]

LindaH wrote: "Peter

How about a Nursery Edition of OMF with just your highlights of the good parts?"

Good idea. Perhaps my droning on might also help him to sleep.

[Tristram]

Ami wrote: "You helped me realize with your "Christian money lender" comment, how there is more of role reversal between Fledgeby as the holier than thou Christian, and Riah, the supposed greedy Jewish lender. I do see Dickens making an attempt in giving the reader a varying view in how Jews were held to a different standard compared to other cultures in London."

While the idea of Riah being an unwilling smokescreen behind whom the evil Fledgeby is conducting his uncouth business might seem contrived in many ways - e.g. it's hard to answer the question what kept Riah so long in the Fledgbian claws and kept him resolved to put on a good mien all the while -, Dickens has, in this relationship, put into a nutshell much of what characterized the position of Jews in the medieval Holy Roman Empire of German Nation. The Jews generally were not allowed to own land, which made it impossible for them to do farming - in a society where most people still lived off the land - and neither were they given access to the guilds, which made it out of the question for them to exercise a craft. Therefore, the profession of money-lenders, "usurers" as they were called, was a way for many to earn a living. They generally had to charge very high interests because they had to pay high taxes to the Emperor, under whose protection they were. Often, the Emperor was more interested in cashing in on the taxes than on offering his actual protection. Those who stood indebted to Jewish usurers usually did not see the Emperor's taxes in the calculation but they just had the impression that they were being bled white by the Jews.

In a way, I found this mirrored in the relation between Riah and Fledgeby.

[Mary Lou]

Jean wrote: "Effeminate"? Did I miss something? "

If I were to guess, I'd say that the more suitable word the critic was looking for would be submissive. Perhaps effeminate came to mind, as Hilary pointed out, because of the godmother reference.

[Bionic Jean]

"Submissive" is certainly a better choice - at least for form's sake. We can deduce his inner thoughts for ourselves!