Reading the Detectives discussion
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They Do It With Mirrors - SPOILER Thread
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Ed..."
I found the whole story involving Edgar pretty unlikely, I must admit - would someone who is such a brilliant actor really be prepared to shut himself up in that school for months on end?! I also thought the police would probably arrest him for threatening to kill. His real identity helped to give him some motivation for going to such lengths to help Lewis though, I suppose.
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Roman Clodia wrote: "Ooh, thanks! I've only discovered Heyer's romances fairly recently and haven't tried any of her detective fiction yet so will add this to the list. My library has a lot of them as audiobooks so may..."If you like Heyer's romances and their happy endings, don't read Penhallow! It's terribly bleak and depressing. I love Heyer's frothy detective stories, but Penhallow is a very different beast and I only discovered that too late. I had to write an alternative ending for it, something I only do when things are looking really dark.
For Heyer detective fiction, I'd recommend The Unfinished Clue and Duplicate Death as two of the most fun. Envious Casca is also rather ingenious.
Susan, I'd agree with you that Christie's characterisation, while often much better than anyone thinks, isn't invariably so. The Hollow and Sad Cypress are definitely two of my favourites, but I reread After The Funeral this week and was frustrated by the lack of depth of the characters in that.
I was also struck by the fact that it was written in 1954 and was so little overshadowed by the war. It barely featured. I was on a work trip and had brought two other books with me which by chance had been written in the same decade (Patricia Wentworth's The Watersplash and Mary Stewart's Nine Coaches Waiting) and all three of them were the same. Little reference to an event which we now look back on as a cataclysmic event, perhaps THE cataclysmic event, of the century. We've discussed this before, of course, ref the breathtakingly callous indifference to the sufferings of the Polish refugee cook in A Murder Is Announced, which was written in 1948.
I don't mind bleak in the slightest - long library waitlist for Penhallow though 😢
Annabel wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "Ooh, thanks! I've only discovered Heyer's romances fairly recently and haven't tried any of her detective fiction yet so will add this to the list. My library has a lot of them..."I have a few of her detective stories on my TBR and do enjoy her romances as well but I still liked Penhallow quite a bit.
If Carrie Louise did in fact suspect - or know in her heart- about Louis' misdeeds, how long would she let it continue? She left it to Miss Marple to take action but would she would have eventually turned him in? It seemed she was satisfied when he was drowning.
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Good question J. If there was no murder earlier could she have excused Louis for financial misdeeds against major corporations for the greater good of his idealistic plans? Lots of people don't mind cheating large companies.
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Susan wrote: "Carrie Louise was an odd character, I thought. Yet, when Miss Marple and her sister believed in her inherent goodness, I took that as a clue that she was innocent."She was- yes- perhaps the kind who only wanted to see the good in people. And as Sandy said, may be she thought his objective was noble enough to make up for the cheating when embezzlement was his only crime.
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Yes, great point - she seems to be a kind of opposite to Miss Marple in a way although they are friends. Miss M always looks for the worst in everyone!
As others have said, embezzlement seems like a different moral order of crime in comparison with multiple murder. I guess the fact that Lewis drowned while trying to save someone else meant that C-L could think of his final act as loving and altruistic.
I wonder whether poirot would be so flexible about morals? I am thinking about whether there is quite a difference between the two main protagonists in Christine's no els?
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Agree, Susan, and Poirot particularly has a soft spot for young lovers which leads him to sometimes compromise... Miss Marple is less sentimental and thus less wavering, in my view.
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Judy wrote: "What did anyone think of Walter ands Gina’s relationship in this? Would it be a good idea for her to emigrate to the US with him after they were so near to splitting up?!"I don't know that they were really- even though they were, if that makes sense. What I mean to say is that Gina did seem to care for him, but there was a miscommunication in terms of what each of them wanted- and once that was understood, perhaps there was no real reason to split up.
Yes, surely she was only flirting to make the rather phlegmatic Wally jealous? I liked the modern touch of this relationship that crossed class and national boundaries. Wally's voice talking about his ambitions to make his own way and own a garage built on hard work rather than family money really shifts this book away from the traditional portrayal of 'working class' characters as uneducated and fixed in terms of their social status.
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The romantic in me would love this relationship to work out, but I wonder if it would - I think you're right, Sandy, that it could go either way.
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Yes, you make a great point about their shifting social status and Wally's hopes to build a business based around hard work - also around the latest technology, with all the advances in car mechanics. Almost like going into digital now?
I did think, though, they both seem a bit stereotyped in some ways - passionate Italian, down-to-earth American.
I agree about the stereotypes. Christie's Americans are always a little too stereotypical, and I think her dialogue for Americans seems to be based on what she saw in bad movies!
Mark Pghfan wrote: "I agree about the stereotypes. Christie's Americans are always a little too stereotypical, and I think her dialogue for Americans seems to be based on what she saw in bad movies!"Yes, I noticed that too (about the dialogue)!
Mark Pghfan wrote: "I agree about the stereotypes. Christie's Americans are always a little too stereotypical, and I think her dialogue for Americans seems to be based on what she saw in bad movies!"A lot of her "foreigners" are- in the Secret of Chimneys for instance, some very exaggerated ones though she probably meant it to be fun.
Lady Clementina wrote: "A lot of her "foreigners" are- in the Secret of Chimneys for instance, some very exaggerated ones though she probably meant it to be fun."Yes, this trait is also particularly prominent in Hickory Dickory Dock.
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Interesting, thanks Mark and Leslie! I thought the American dialogue seemed a bit dodgy, but good to have it confirmed by Americans.
I think that Gina and Wally have a good chance-I never felt that she didn't love him, just that she was quite happy to flirt with the other young men who adored her. I think Wally looked a little useless and hopeless with nothing to do around the estate, and when he finally decides this isn't the life he wants and declares that he is going back with or without her, she sees the man she fell in love with. Agreed about the stereotypes-although I think that Gina's "passionate Italian" might end up feeling more at home in America than in the UK!
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But of course either Gina or Wally would have to be separated from their family ... and it wasn't easy to pay return visits in those days. Though, having said that, they have both done quite a lot of travelling already, and if the garage does really well hopefully they can do some more.
Hmm seeing as Grandam and Great Aunt aren't exactly short on cash they could afford to pay for tickets for Gina and Wally to come back over once the garage is up and running with good staff who can run it for say three months.
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What a nice thought, and they can bring the grand kids.
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Susan wrote: "It does reflect the fact that during wartime a lot of people marry in haste. Interestingly enough, in our next Christie book (Crooked House) we have another couple who fall in love in wartime, alth..."AC herself did in a sense.
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Did it strike anyone else that it was a bit out of character for the young Miss Marple to have travelled abroad? This is how she met and became friends with Ruth and Carrie Louise. It isn't relevant to the main plot but seems like a rare slip for Christie.
I'm not sure, Leslie. A lot of well bred girls traveled to "the continent" in their youth. A young Jane to do that wouldn't be too much of a stretch. After all, Christie herself "came out" in Egypt!
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Judy wrote: "Interesting question... I think being "finished" on the Continent was quite common - and she is still adventurous enough to travel to the Caribbean in her old age!"Yes for a certain class & with money but I was under the impression that Miss Marple's family was fairly poor.
Leslie wrote: "Yes for a certain class & with money but I was under the impression that Miss Marple's family was fairly poor."Hmm but I think Miss Marple was modeled after some of Christie's own acquaintances. I read in Christie's autobiography that even though her family was not financially secure by the time it was her turn to go to finishing schools and come out, she still went to France for her education and came out in Egypt. Actually, as far as I understand the continent was less expensive than the London society for 'good' families of reduced circumstances.
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Jane's uncle was the Canon of Ely. That is whom I think took her to Bertram's as a child. Perhaps he financed other things for her.
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I was going to listen to the audiobook on this and delay and delay, so read it instead. Quite enjoyable. I like how even Carrie Louise was portrayed quite differently at the end.
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I am so familiar with the Christie books, I generally listen to them on audio, in the car. Saves up actual book-reading time for other books!
Reading the Detectives
Books mentioned in this topic
Hickory Dickory Dock (other topics)The Hollow (other topics)
Sad Cypress (other topics)
Force of Nature (other topics)
They Do It With Mirrors (other topics)
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I rarely watch any of the adaptations of Christie's works, especially the newer ones. I am not a strict purist but mutilating her stories beyond recognition is not nice.