Part Two, Chap 5-7

[Thomas]

Raskolnikov meets Luzhin, who by a curious coincidence is living with Lebeziatnikov, the man who gave Marmelodov's wife a beating. Raskolnikov does not receive Luzhin well, as we might expect, but I wonder if they don't actually have some things in common. Among other things, the ideas of the "younger generation" are discussed. Luzhin defends them by saying,

But science says: Love yourself before all, because everything in the world is based on self-interest. If you love only yourself, you will set up your affairs properly, and your caftan will remain in one piece.... it follows that by acquiring solely and exclusively for myself, I am thereby precisely acquiring for everyone...

Later on, Raskolnikov suggests that the consequences of this are that "it will turn out that one can go around putting a knife into people.' Luzhin later says that "an economic idea is not an invitation to murder." Is it only an economic idea?

In the next chapter it appears that Raskolnikov is on the brink of confession. He plays a strange game with Zamyotov that makes the reader wonder if he isn't actively trying to get caught. Finally, after another bridge scene in which a young woman attempts suicide, he decides he will confess as "a way out of it", and he heads toward the police station. What is the meaning of this bridge scene? On the way, he passes the building where he killed Alyona Ivanovna and Lizaveta, and he can't resist revisiting it. It's almost a cliche in fiction now, but why does Raskolnikov need to return to the scene of the crime?

On the way to the police station, Raskolnikov comes across a terrible accident, and it turns out that Marmeladov is the victim. Raskolnikov does everything he can to aid his friend, and after Marmeladov dies he gives his money away to the family. As he is walking away from the room, he is "filled with the new, boundless sensation of a sudden influx of full and powerful life. This sensation might be likened to th sensation of a man condemned to death who is suddenly and unexpectedly granted a pardon." How are we to interpret this?

Sonya sends her young sister after Raskolnikov, and he is surprisingly warm towards her. He asks Polenka to pray for him (later he laughs about this.) He feels that his illness has gone. "Pride and self-confidence were growing in him every moment... What special thing was it, however, that had so turned him around? He himself did not know..." What is "the special thing"? And why does that feeling not last?

At the end of chapter 6, what is Raskolnikov referring to when he says that he saw "another being" in the Marmeladov apartment? "I gave them all my money... and besides, I was just kissed by a being who, even if I had killed someone would still... in short, I saw another being there too... with a flame-colored feather..."

[Christopher]

All right! So ready to move on.
I am ahead in the audio, but behind on the reading.

[Dave]

Thomas wrote: "It's almost a cliche in fiction now, but why does Raskolnikov need to return to the scene of the crime?"

There was something very odd, but intentional, that struck me about this scene. Raskolnikov notices that the two workmen are "hanging up new wallpaper – white, with lilac flowers, in place of the yellow, frayed and worn paper that had been there before. For some reason, Raskolnikov was terribly put out by this; he looked at the new wallpaper with hostility, as though sorry to find everything so changed."

This reminded me of an earlier scene, back in R's ship's cabin in chapter 4, when Zosimov, Razumikhin and Nastasya are discussing the murder. At one point, R suddenly pipes up and mutters, "Lizaveta?", and then turns "to the wall, with its dirty yellow paper and its pattern of little white flowers. He chose an ungainly white flower with little brown marks and started studying it: how many leaves did it have, what kind of notches where there on the leaves, and how many marks?" When he finally stops staring at the "intriguing flower" on the wallpaper, at the start of chapter 5, we're told that R was "exceptionally pale" and that his face "expressed extraordinary suffering, as though he'd just undergone an excruciating operation".

It's Zosimov who notices R wrapped up in this wallpaper reverie and, at the end of Part 2, it's Zosimov who believes that R might have some sort of mental illness. I'm trying to fathom the importance, if any, of the link between these two scenes, but it does seem that Dostoevsky's main intention for putting R back at the scene of the crime is so that he can see the fresh new wallpaper (which, crucially, is white and not yellow).

[Xan]

I've read that at the time of Dostoevsky the color yellow symbolized illness. I've also read that the first psychiatric hospital in Russia was yellow. It might also mean betrayal.

Having said that, these are informal comments I've read, made by people on the net in comments sections, so I'm not sure how factual they are. Perhaps someone with knowledge of Russia would know?

[Xan]

But yellow can also mean happiness or a light, especially bright yellow, and what does R. see? A flame (bright yellow) colored feather, and he is immediately excited about life again. Yellow is one of those colors whose meanings are opposites.

[Xan]

We spend almost all of Part One and Part two with a morose, haughty, suicidal R. Then he enters the Marmeladov residence and a different R. emerges.

"There is life! Wasn't I alive just now? So my life hasn't died yet together with the old hag? May you see the kingdom of heaven -- and that's your lot, old mother, your times up! Now for the kingdom of reason and light and ... and will, and strength ... and now we'll see! Now we'll see how we measure up! he added haughtily, as though addressing and challenging some force of darkness."

There is a lot here.

1. This looks to be an important turning point in R's psychology. He is reinvigorated by something, perhaps the feather that burns like a flame. Upon leaving the house, he immediately goes to the party and engages his friend in conversation. He's alive, almost happy. Can this be because of his good deed? I doubt it is that alone.

2. Sonya's step-sister tells R. she loves Sonya more than anyone, meaning more than her mom, her brother, her sister. And Sonya carries a feather that burns like a flame. The light. So Sonya must be someone special.

3. R. still feels no remorse for the "old hag," whom he seems to think ought to still be dead, and good riddance to her. Now it's time for the kingdom of reason and light, will and strength. But what does that mean? It would seem the pawnbroker represented something far more important than money to R.

4. R. has conveniently forgotten about Lizaveta.

[Sue]

Yes, seems almost as if R had a death wish for himself...from the murders, an irrevocable act/crossing over as it were, to his almost (in effect) confessing of the same to Zamyotov followed by his decision made on the bridge to truly confess, only to find, before confessing, a strength of purpose to live that was given rise by his aiding the distressed family of Marmeladov. When all had seemed lost, somehow hope was restored; but why this case in particular? In contrast, he had earlier tried to come to the drunken girl's aid only to change directions, but that was before the 'cross over' (murders). Was hope more dear when all salvation seemed lost? And, indeed, what is this feather "that burns like a flame" business and what is its relevance !?

[Thomas]

Dave wrote: "I'm trying to fathom the importance, if any, of the link between these two scenes, but it does seem that Dostoevsky's main intention for putting R back at the scene of the crime is so that he can see the fresh new wallpaper (which, crucially, is white and not yellow). "

Raskolnikov is shocked that his crime could be whitewashed. I think it's because he subconsciously wants credit for the murder. To me, it looks like he plays with Zamyotov and with the idea of confessing because he wants to be acknowledged, which is quite different from confessing to receive absolution. But I'm not sure if he understands this himself. He says he just wants to be done with it, but so far he has just played with the authorities instead of turning himself in.

Maybe part of the problem is that he feels justified in killing the pawnbroker, but he has remorse for killing Lizaveta?

[Thomas]

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "We spend almost all of Part One and Part two with a morose, haughty, suicidal R. Then he enters the Marmeladov residence and a different R. emerges.

"There is life! Wasn't I alive just now? So my..."

Excellent points. I agree with Sue that Raskolnikov seems to have a death wish... maybe Sonya offers another way out. She is a prostitute, which explains the yellow color, but the flame colored feather strikes me as a religious symbol. He describes her as "another being," which sounds other worldly.

[Shelley]

To what extent does "Преступлéние" (Crime) in the title extend to the non-criminal but nonetheless transgressive practices of the pawnbroker (miserliness and usury) and M. (alcoholism and profligacy)? And to what extent are we seeing punishment being meted out through R. (against the pawnbroker--doesn't explain the sister, clearly) and through the horses (against M.)?

In a way I wonder if R. feels reborn after witnessing M.'s death because he can somehow identify with the (clearly amoral) horses (as an instrument of divine punishment) and also now has an opportunity to perhaps atone for his sin against the innocent Lizaveta by helping M.'s widow and children?

(I'm also reading The Oresteia right now and so am seeing themes of crime and punishment everywhere.)

[Xan]

Thomas wrote: "the flame colored feather strikes me as a religious symbol. He describes her as "another being," which sounds other worldly...."

Oh, I agree, religious and perhaps mystical. R. still hasn't spoken to Sonya, yet the effect of seeing her with that feather has had a profound effect on him. But is it only a symbol? Or does R. see at as a message from God, that Sonya is special, that she represents hope or salvation?

And this phrase: "Now for the kingdom of reason and light." Fascinating. Not the "kingdom of God" but the "kingdom of reason and light." Is this just translation happenstance, or is D. conceptually and intentionally mixing reason with religion?

And what light? The light of reason or the light of God? Is D. saying reason and goodness (morality), rather than being mutually exclusive, must be used together to improve one's lot? I'm just fascinated by the juxtaposition of these words.

I've probably read way too much into this, which I'm wont to do. But it's fun and makes me wonder about things.

[Xan]

Cphe wrote: "Regarding the flame/coloured feather. Was that perhaps a religious experience for R as in being reborn ? Or is that way off the mark? It crossed my mind when reading to account for his new found se..."

I certainly think you are right. It's like an epiphany or profound religious experience, the kind mentioned in The Varieties of Religious Experience.

[Xan]

Thomas wrote: "Raskolnikov is shocked that his crime could be whitewashed. I think it's because he subconsciously wants credit for the murder. To me, it looks like he plays with Zamyotov and with the idea of confessing because he wants to be acknowledged, which is quite different from confessing to receive absolution. ..."

Hadn't thought of that, and it sounds very possible. Thanks.

[Roger]

I think Raskolnikov feels the need to confess because of the enormity of his crimes. He needs to confess and ask for forgiveness, but he can't quite bring himself to do it. Then he sees Marmeladov ask for forgiveness at the point of death, and receive absolution from a priest, without ever mending his behavior or making up for his misdeeds. Now Raskolnikov has an opportunity to make up for Marmeladov's misdeeds, and his own, and it gives him something to live for.

[David]

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "But yellow can also mean happiness or a light, especially bright yellow, and what does R. see? A flame (bright yellow) colored feather, and he is immediately excited about life again. Yellow is one..."

I wonder if there is a difference between a dull or pale yellow and a bright or flame-like yellow? A flame colored feather makes me think of the phrase, like a moth to a flame but it also puts me in mind of a candle in the dark as a kind of guidepost. Is R like a moth to be lured towards his end, or is he a soul searching for the way? My guess is the later, but I will keep my options open.

[David]

. . .in acquiring wealth solely and exclusively for myself, I am acquiring, so to speak, for all, and helping to bring to pass my neighbour’s getting a little more than a torn coat; and that not from private, personal liberality, but as a consequence of the general advance. The idea is simple, but unhappily it has been a long time reaching us, being hindered by idealism and sentimentality.

This sounds like the trickle down theory economics to me. Being hindered by idealism and sentimentality also sets it up as another straw man idea from the West.

[Thomas]

Shelley wrote: "To what extent does "Преступлéние" (Crime) in the title extend to the non-criminal but nonetheless transgressive practices of the pawnbroker (miserliness and usury) and M. (alcoholism and profligac..."

"Prestuplenie" as transgression implies a boundary or border that has been crossed. In that sense, it reminds me of the "pale" that the English established in Ireland to denote the extent of their authority. Raskolnikov lives "beyond the pale," isolated from others, beyond authority. His actions are a crime as defined by an authority he doesn't recognize -- whether it's the law of his country or of God. He is a rebel, or a heretic, as his own name implies. I'm expecting him at some point to recognize an authority of some sort in order to be "reunified" with others or with God.

I think it's possible to see the pawnbroker and Marmeladov as transgressors as well, but they aren't consciously rejecting authority the way that Raskolnikov is. I think the focus for Raskolnikov is on seizing power.

[Dave]

Thomas wrote: "Raskolnikov is shocked that his crime could be whitewashed. I think it's because he subconsciously wants credit for the murder."

Yes, that makes psychological sense. R's desire for recognition appears to be the driving force behind a lot of his odd behaviour in this section. Perhaps what he hadn't bargained for in planning the murder is that his hoped-for sense of superiority, tied to the (misguided) feeling of having committed a useful and "heroic" deed, is contingent on other people recognising it as such.

Sonya does appear to offer a way out of this existential crisis. A note in my edition says that Russian critics have compared Sonya’s “feather the colour of fire” to the feather of an angel, invoking the Orthodox iconography of Sophia (Sofya / Sonya) as angel-like, with face and hands the colour of fire. D appears to be giving the impression that Sonya incarnates Holy Wisdom (Sophia).

And, of course, one element of wisdom that R clearly lacks is self-awareness about the gravity of his crimes. As Xan says above, he still calls the pawnbroker an “old hag” and appears to have completely failed to process the murder of Lizaveta, despite one apparent fleeting pang of remorse.

[Gayle]

Thank you to all who have posted comments. I had to listen to the audio book all at once and I'm enjoying each comment as it comes up. This is the best book discussion group I've been a part of since college. As the story unfolds, it's interesting how each theme is found in our day and age and environment. As I learn from them, my horizon broadens once again.

[David]

Gayle wrote: "Thank you to all who have posted comments. I had to listen to the audio book all at once and I'm enjoying each comment as it comes up. This is the best book discussion group I've been a part of sin..."

Thank you for your inspiring words, Gayle. Which still relevant theme, as uncovered by the discussion so far, do you find most interesting?

[Shelley]

Thomas wrote: ""Prestuplenie" as transgression implies a boundary or border that has been crossed. In that sense, it reminds me of the "pale" that the English established in Ireland to denote the extent of their authority. Raskolnikov lives "beyond the pale," isolated from others, beyond authority."

Nice. This is a very convincing reading, although it seems to relegate M.'s death to a pure plot device to place R. closer to Sonya.

Dave wrote: "R's desire for recognition appears to be the driving force behind a lot of his odd behaviour in this section. Perhaps what he hadn't bargained for in planning the murder is that his hoped-for sense of superiority, tied to the (misguided) feeling of having committed a useful and "heroic" deed, is contingent on other people recognising it as such."

This is a brilliant reading and explains R.'s ultimate paradox: he professes to live outside societal rules, but craves the recognition and admiration of people living within societal rules.

[Bigollo]

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "I've read that at the time of Dostoevsky the color yellow symbolized illness. I've also read that the first psychiatric hospital in Russia was yellow. It might also mean betrayal... "

I only know that in current Russia the phrase "yellow house" is a slang/euphemism for a psychiatric institution. And it's not a new word, it's been around for generations as far as I know.

[Bigollo]

Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "And this phrase: "Now for the kingdom of reason and light." Fascinating. Not the "kingdom of God" but the "kingdom of reason and light." Is this just translation happenstance, or is D. conceptually and intentionally mixing reason with religion?"

The translation is accurate.

And what light? The light of reason or the light of God? Is D. saying reason and goodness (morality), rather than being mutually exclusive, must be used together to improve one's lot? I'm just fascinated by the juxtaposition of these words."

I think R. means the same light as is in the word Enlightenment.

I've probably read way too much into this, which I'm wont to do. But it's fun and makes me wonder about things. "

That's over 90% of the reason I read fiction for. :)

[Bigollo]

Shelley wrote: "Dave wrote: "R's desire for recognition appears to be the driving force behind a lot of his odd behaviour in this section. Perhaps what he hadn't bargained for in planning the murder is that his hoped-for sense of superiority, tied to the (misguided) feeling of having committed a useful and "heroic" deed, is contingent on other people recognising it as such."

This is a brilliant reading and explains R.'s ultimate paradox: he professes to live outside societal rules, but craves the recognition and admiration of people living within societal rules. "

Nice observation and comment indeed. Thank you Dave and Shelley.
I only wonder if D. will soon throw in something that will negate this interpretation as well, as he does not seem to like having his readers secure and comfortable for too long.

[Lily]

Bigollo wrote: "I only know that in current Russia the phrase "yellow house" is a slang/euphemism for a psychiatric institution...."

Thank you for reiterating that, Bigollo. You took off my to-do list to go back and find where you told us that before.

[Gayle]

David wrote: "Gayle wrote: "Thank you to all who have posted comments. I had to listen to the audio book all at once and I'm enjoying each comment as it comes up. This is the best book discussion group I've been..."

There are several but the one that I keep thinking of is the complexities of the mind of a criminal. Why did he do it? Just to say he did? What is his thought process through the entire ordeal? etc. My car was stolen last week but found 3 days later. The thieves evidently did it for a dare, a notch in their belt; nothing was disturbed inside and not much gas was used. The mind of a criminal is so far beyond my understanding. I'm aware that my experience was just about a stolen car (a junker no less) which is so far removed from a contrived double murder but nevertheless, it hits home somewhat. My post only touches the surface and is very simplistic and yet we study classics because of what they can mean to us in our day.

[Roger]

Gayle wrote: "David wrote: "Gayle wrote: "Thank you to all who have posted comments. I had to listen to the audio book all at once and I'm enjoying each comment as it comes up. This is the best book discussion g..."

The same reason St. Augustine stole those pears.

What strikes me is that Raskolnikov thinks he's driven by a need to be superior to the passive sheep around him, but in reality he's constantly driven by emotions and impulses he hardly understands.

[David]

Gayle wrote: "There are several but the one that I keep thinking of is the complexities of the mind of a criminal. Why did he do it?"

Good point. One of Dostoevky's great strengths seems to be an acute sensitivity to human psychology and his ability to utilize it as believable motivation for his characters, however twisted or even criminal.

Sorry about your car, but good to hear it was recovered in good condition. Maybe we will get some insight about your car if Raskolnikov should steal a carriage, suffer from it, and abandon it out of a sense of guilt or nihilism and provide extra hay for the horse?

[Thomas]

Roger wrote: "What strikes me is that Raskolnikov thinks he's driven by a need to be superior to the passive sheep around him, but in reality he's constantly driven by emotions and impulses he hardly understands. "

This is frustrating for the reader trying to make logical sense of Raskolnikov, but it also makes Dostoevsky's portrait resonate. Presumably Raskolnikov has reasons for doing what he did, but Dostoevsky does not show us clearly what they are. He shows us a man who is not wholly sane and a myriad of possibilities for why he might kill, as opposed to a James Bond-type villain. We might say that Raskolnikov is evil, but he isn't simply evil.

[Sue]

Yes, difficult to understand R's thinking process: prior to the killings, there is a vacillation from finer aspirations to fatalism and despair. Is it some visceral reaction to feeling like he is a disappointment to his family as well as to himself or ? After the killings ,we see a continued struggle, but of a different ilk as there is a dark and new reality. When he suddenly goes silent and sulks (such as upon seeing his family), it seems he is retreating inwardly to assess his horrific secret, most unbearable. D reveals the complexity of the human soul.

[Thomas]

Sue wrote: "When he suddenly goes silent and sulks (such as upon seeing his family), it seems he is retreating inwardly to assess his horrific secret, most unbearable. ."

Do you think his Raskolnikov's family has anything to do with the way he is ?

The way that he and Razumikhin go up to his room is really strange. Raskolnikov says "farewell" to Raz, as if he is expecting to be arrested -- instead, it's his mother and sister. He's shocked by this, maybe even disappointed?

[Sue]

Yes, I think he expected to be arrested as well..but then saw it was his family there..."both women rushed to him. But he stood there like a dead man; a sudden, unbearable awareness struck him like a thunderbolt. And his arms would not raise to embrace them; they could not.." and then he fainted. I thought perhaps it was his awful realization that he had "crossed over" via his crime and upon seeing them in the light of day, the reality and darkness of his deed struck him in full force as in such contrast to the beings in front of him and all they represent: lightness and joy. It perhaps struck him that his deed brutally meant things would never be the same. Perhaps such involved his guilt (is there any?), perhaps just a great thunderbolt of dark despairing awareness as to its impact ; a harsh reality check upon seeing them.