Poldark Saga - Winston Graham discussion
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The Angry Tide
The Angry Tide - #7
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Monk Adderly
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Monk is unquestionably a predator. I've never thought that way about Hugh (who was a shameless seducer in my mind), but Monk is dangerous. Not only was Demelza unsure of behavioral expectations in high-society London, but I think she was legitimately scared of him. If anything, her inaction was because she was also afraid of being an embarrassment to Ross. So she WAS sensitive to how her behavior would affect Ross and I think would have reacted differently if she wasn't thinking about Ross's position. This is another occasion where WG's portrayal of a woman was so spot on, whether historical setting or modern. How many women today put up with the same type of advances from lecherous men for the sake of their own careers? In a lot of ways, things haven't changed.
The Angry Tide was first published in 1977. Two years prior, the first UN sponsored World Conference on Women was held during the 1975 International Women's Year. I think WG was inspired quite a bit by events going on in the world around him--this is the reason his books continue to resonate with us decades later.
Demelza did not invite or want Monk's attentions and she felt powerless to defend against them. Monk's only motivation was the bet he made with George.
I agree with you wholeheartedly! Demelza was being kind and polite as we know is her nature. She did nothing to entice Monk. He had an agenda. He was going after her hard. Monk is a despicable man who wanted nothing more than to have another notch on his belt. The fact that he had a bet with George just proves how much more of a predator he was. I think Demelza wanted be and do the right thing for Ross and was quite unaware of the intentions of Monk. She was uneasy with him. Women are taught from a young age to play nice" and "do not offend" even in the 21st century, never mind 18c. To say that the woman, Demelza, has the responsibility to stop a man from being lecherous is ridiculous and victim shaming. Poor Ross can handle himself. After all he held a torch for Elizabeth for years and years and Demelza had to put up with that.
Tanya, I consider both Hugh and Monk predators, although different kinds...... Monk the physical predator... Hugh the mental predator... Both targeting Demelza for the same thing, adultery. As far as Monk being more dangerous, wasn't it Hugh that succeeded? It was several years after the Hugh tryst when Demelza accompanied Ross to London, and all of those years had the shadow of estrangement hovering over their marriage because of what Demelza allowed. One reason it went on so long was Demelza continued to deceive Ross by not admitting the affair and ask for forgiveness. She also deceived him by hiding the poems and continuing to read the...... Like I said in another post.... Demelza lost her innocence that day in the cove and never recovered it.
I realize Demelza is walking an unknown tight rope of how to act in London society and not embarrass her husband. Even before she met Monk, Ross told her he was a "wild man" and made the hairs on the back of neck stand up. Ross was more embarrassed by the public pawing at the play than if Demelza had told Monk to piss off. I'm not saying Demelza is an "attention whore", but she likes flattery no matter what the source. I know D didn't overtly encourage Monk, but the fact she didn't shut it down gave hope he could win his bet.
Linda, as far as Monk wanting another notch on his belt, was Hugh any different? At Seal Hole after he knew she would submit there was "no more desire" He knew what he ask of Demelza was wrong because he said he was too embarrassed to stay for dinner.... It was all about the chase and not the prize. Hugh has no more honor than Monk.
I don't think it would matter to Ross which tactics were used to cuckold him, do you? He would see no difference between Hugh and Monk, just the fact his wife surrendered to infidelity.
If Hugh had regained his eye sight my guess is Ross would have "called for pistols" I wonder if Demelza considered that, especially after his duel with Monk. Caroline completely understood what the duel was about.... sure Ross was defending his wife's honor..... but he killed Monk because he didn't get the chance with Hugh.
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Demelza consented to Hugh because he won her heart. She never intended to consent to Monk--she did not find him attractive in anyway. The danger here is Monk sexually assaulting her, a far worse outcome than infidelity.
Sry Tanya, I don't buy Hugh won her heart. He sexually assaulted her mentally until she caved in. Part of the reason D quit fighting was to get Hugh off her back and cure him of his obsession for her. Just like drinking too much port at his going away party. She want to flaunt her flaws. Many of the lines Hugh tried to use she thought were total BS, and she told him so.The actual act it's self was average and nothing different that came before........ Not the earth moving, rockets fireing, trumpet sounding experience you'd expect when she came together with her hearts desire for the first time....... If she was really moved by Hugh, she would have found a way to have seconds. Instead, she let Ross make the decision to go to the sick bed.
Let me ask you this, if Hugh had recovered his eye sight and become healthy..... Would Demelza have slept with him again???
Do you think in the back of her mind she was worried if Ross found out he would challenge him to a duel if he recovered?
I think Demelza went into denial after seal hole.... knowing if she confessed to Ross her marriage would be shattered. I lost more respect for her character from her deception than from the act it's self. In the Liz affair D pressed hard for his confession so they could either seperate or heal....when it was her turn to be honest she failed ...
I know D was only trying to placate Monk. I do think she was scared he might assault her, and in fact he did by grabbing her breast. I wonder if she would have told Ross if the house keeper wasn't involved? She didn't tell Ross about kissing Hugh Bodrugan for information, did she......or all the hands on her thighs at dinner partys........
For a woman who wanted no secrets, Demelza had no trouble keeping her own.
Ken wrote: "Sry Tanya, I don't buy Hugh won her heart. He sexually assaulted her mentally until she caved in. Part of the reason D quit fighting was to get Hugh off her back and cure him of his obsession for h..."It is amazing to me that there is so much that is not clearly spelled out in the Poldark books and gives us plenty of material for discussion. About some matters though I wish WG had been clearer. In my mind there is no doubt that Hugh is a rat, but not quite as evil as Monk Adderly. Demelza went way down in my estimation when she gave in to Hugh. However, I do not feel I can blame her for Monk Adderly's behaviour. She did the best she could to fight him off and make plain she was not interested. She needed to be chaperoned whenever Ross was in the House. I think that neither Ross nor Demelza anticipated the problems that might face Demelza in London and I think Ross is mainly responsible for this. His marriage was still somewhat fragile and needed a lot of looking after.
Ross does get some of the blame for not making sure D was chaperoned when he couldn't be with her. Demelza certainly didn't entice Monk, but she had experience dealing with the "in your face" rake. I'm not sure what else she could have done, other than open the door and talk to Monk from the hall till he left.Ross and Demelza have a habit of testing each other. I wonder if a little of this wasn't going on with Ross? He had just started trusting her again after years of a semi broken marriage resulting from HA. Ross tries to always set Demelza free, hoping she will always choose him. (of course this comes from Liz rejecting him twice (his thoughts) When he got the same rejection from Demelza it shattered him (again his thoughts) He later remarked "I've love two women, and both have turned to other men" Rough tough Ross Poldark has a chink in his armor.
In some ways Monk and Hugh were the same rat.... one attacked from the front and one from the rear. Both ignored Demelza's attempts to deflect their advances. Many things bothered me about HA. Even his promise to Demelza on the row back from seal hole to not let his words hurt her, he broke 3 days later with the poem that should have been burnt. I wish Ross had told him on his sick bed he wished for a swift recovery so he could shoot him. haha Yes, I know, Ross confirmed the tryst in his mind after seeing D's reaction and reading the poem.
Do you think if Hugh had recovered they would have continued the affair???
Ken wrote: "Ross does get some of the blame for not making sure D was chaperoned when he couldn't be with her. Ken - from where did you get Elizabeth rejecting Ross twice? I don't think Demelza would have allowed the affair to continue. She didn't want to lose Ross or her child. I think there is a strong bond between Ross and Demelza which gets them through the bad times.
Ross felt rejected by Liz because she accepted a proposal from his greatest enemy George. Like he said she had her choice of 30 guys. I don't think Demelza would have allowed a second time with HA either, she tried hard not to allow the first. It was a one time event she didn't really want, but was caught up circumstances that came together that day. Every time I read Seal Cove I'm more impressed in how many times she rejects his advances and throws them back, asking to go home.
Before that day in June she was worried about George and Ross getting into a duel. Ross assured her he was a soldier, but George was a man of commerce....... Even though WG didn't write any of her thoughts, It had to cross her mind that HA was a soldier too... I think that was one reason she didn't admit the affair to Ross before HA died.
Ken wrote: "Ross felt rejected by Liz because she accepted a proposal from his greatest enemy George. Like he said she had her choice of 30 guys. Ah yes - Ross did feel that as a slap in the face but perhaps came to realise it much later as manipulation. The reality was that Elizabeth was trying to wrench him away from Demelza.
I don't think Demelza would have allowed a second time with H..."
I don't recall that Demelza ever admitted to Ross the affair with Hugh.
She didn't admit the affair, at least not in TAT (which is as far as I've read)To me that is the thing most troubling about the tryst, not the spontaneous act itself. She didn't trust Ross with the truth, something she demanded with his Liz night. I think she might have told Ross had HA lived, but his death was a convenient end to her guilt. After her immediate break down to HA's death, the tryst was wrapped up in a neat little package and consigned to the past. A simple "It's over"
She didn't seem to mind the pain it was causing Ross all those years enough to come clean about her feelings and acknowledge his. That made me like Demelza's character a lot less. In this instance she was a coward, not the strong honest wife before HA.
What makes it worse is D knows R has figured it out, but still won't give him an honest discussion about the affair. At that point what did she have to loose???
Ken wrote: "She didn't admit the affair, at least not in TAT (which is as far as I've read)To me that is the thing most troubling about the tryst, not the spontaneous act itself. She didn't trust Ross with th..."
Ken - I think Demelza was scared of Losing Ross. What other reason could there be for her to withhold her betrayal from him. When Ross was unfaithful Demelza realised she couldn't leave him. As we keep saying here, Ross has her heart. So yes, I agree with you that she didn't trust Ross with the truth as she feared he might end the marriage.
I go along with how Winston Graham portrayed this exceptional novel. Maybe if this was a real life historical the outcome would have been different. Demelza and Ross were meant for each other. I have read all the books now but tend to forget the next series until we get to watch them. Oct. 1st USA series 3 begins and the books will all come back to me. Such a great drama and also the actors.
Sonia, I think all of us agree Demelza and Ross were soul mates and nothing could get in the way of them loving each other..... HA was just a bump in the road, but one that affected them for years.Yes Stella, D was scared Ross might find out.
D: "if Ross knew of it, even got to suspect it, then the anonymity of the experience would be shattered, the isolation broken into, and her life with him might be laid to waste." (TFS, p. 431)
There was no way she would admit to the actual act.....
What I wanted from Demelza was a "sorry"..... not for the adultery it's self because she couldn't admit it, but a "sorry, for the pain my spiritual infidelity caused you, Ross...." She had to admit nothing let him know she knew she had hurt him in spirit and regretted that.
Instead Demelza went into full denial and didn't seem to care he was hurting. That I thought was cruel of her and didn't show the love she says was unchanged.
I know I've referred to HA as a snake (which he was), but a snake can't change his color....... The one most responsible for the affair was Demelza, even saying what she did to discourage HA's advances, she kept leaving the door open. I think she realizes that later.
Ken wrote: "Sonia, I think all of us agree Demelza and Ross were soul mates and nothing could get in the way of them loving each other..... HA was just a bump in the road, but one that affected them for years...."Ken - I am not defending Demelza. I think her relationship with Hugh should have have gone no further than friendship but Hugh had an agenda from the start and Demelza was weak.
Honest Stella, I wasn't trying to put the Demelza Defense Attorney hat (or wig) on your head... haha... I've read enough of your posts to know we see the books and TV series much the same. I keep posting because I'm reading TAT again, and it's fun.... I LOT more fun than what DH is cooking up for us next year. She seems to want to make this the Demelza hates Ross, because he's a jerk...... series. It bothers me what DH has done to both the main characters.
Ken wrote: "Honest Stella, I wasn't trying to put the Demelza Defense Attorney hat (or wig) on your head... haha... I've read enough of your posts to know we see the books and TV series much the same. I keep p..."The Angry Tide is an excellent book. Many think it the best Poldark book. I think it is on a par with books to 1 to 4. It bothers me too what DH has done to both the main characters and the story lines and I think it demonstrates her arrogance. There are many people who love the Poldark books and who are very upset with series 2 and 3. Then there are Aidan fans who are just happy to see him in anything. Many people who love these series haven't read the books. The only person I know of not in this category is Tanya who says she likes the different take on things. The 'different take' however means that the characters become different people. Winston Graham is widely thought of (even by DH) as a wonderful storyteller and creator of characters so why change them beyond recognition!
I thought DH kept the scripts the same as in WG. books. ( I wished she would) I am sure Andrew Graham has to be consulted before the scripts are written after his father didn't like how Demelza was potrayed in the first POLDARK series. (1970s). Viewers that haven't read the books will never know.
It's obvious many of the viewers have fallen in love with the casting.... some watch just to get a glimpse of a chest. (either, haha) .... The casting for the 75' series was more realistic I think, although I have to admit I can't get enough of Eleanore. I think it's great that both she and Aidan prefer to keep their clothes on and let their acting be judged on it's own merit...... Too bad they didn't use the '75 script. There were things I didn't like about it, but it was a much closer adaptation.Sonia, I agree the '75 was rushed and very condensed... my biggest complaint was they would finish on a cliffhanger and not address it the next episode.
Sonia - Andrew Graham acts in an advisory capacity only and has said that his advice is not always followed. We have seen, from the published series 2 scripts, that DH's scripts have been changed (though not in series 1). So far there is no sign of the series 3 scripts being published. There was quite a lot of anger about the changes to DH's scripts so they may decide not to publish any more.
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Update: Please keep this discussion to the topic "Monk Adderly" as described in The Angry Tide book.