Beta Reader Group discussion
Writing Advice & Discussion
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Why do Beta Readers Disappear?
All I can say is, been there, done that, and just about every other author I've got friendly enough for this topic to come up has said the same thing. It'd be cool if there was some way to rate the betas, so others would know not to bother using one if they couldn't take the time to respond. Oh, and it goes both ways. I've provided beta feedback never to hear a peep back (alliteration not intended, but fortuitous), even if I sent a follow-up to be sure if they got it (though, on a couple of occasions, the follow-up did trigger a response).
So, I agree 100% with your sentiment, but not sure if there is any remedy.
Perhaps only go to betas who can prove positive feedback from other authors?
Personally, I only accept to beta read when I think I can do it so I don't understand when someone accepts to do it and never goes back to the author. Sure life happens (especially sickness) and you may not always be able to warn the person, but that's not something that should happen every time and to every beta you get. The other thing about people saying they're doing you a favor and you should stfu is also wrong. They might be doing you a favor but unless you twisted their arms to do it, they actually accepted (sometimes even offered themselves). So, again in my humble opinion, it wouldn't be rude to email them and ask them about it. In fact, they are being rude by not getting back to you. Ok, sometimes telling an author that their baby is not for you is not easy. Maybe they were spooked by one or two doing so. One never knows. But as a beta, you should know from the start that you might have to do so.
As for the other way around, I am lucky it never happened to me. Maybe it's because I bug the author too much by sending feed back every few chapters I read and if I'd never get one word back from the author at least saying they got it, I may just stop and wait for them to ask me where I am at with their manuscript. :P
So when it comes for me to find betas, I try to stick with people who beta for me already, people online I know, fans who kept in contact with me after reading my books etc. I'm not sure I'd be willing to go with a complete stranger. But I know one has to start somewhere and it's not always easy.
There are several circumstances in which a beta reader might just *poof* disappear, but the most likely to me is that they forgot. You can't really combat that type of problem, it's just bad luck.Similarly, you might land a bad beta, one that thinks that you're obliged to wait for them. Yeah, that's pretty incorrect. Best to recruit betas with a good, dedicated background or ones who have actually exhibited tangible interest in beta reading, with a reason that makes sense.
Don't get frustrated. When I have something ready for input, I do a shoutout to a long list of betas. Usually, about three-quarters of them take the book on, about a third of them finish it, and about half of those have something of value to offer. In addition to betas, I hustle around, find writer's group where I present chapters or segments, I also find people to partner with. I'll do yours if you do mine... this works best in early, early drafts. Earlier this week I posted a question about workshops. I am currently looking for or trying to form a writer's workshop, a small one, no more than six people, one that skype's on a regular basis. Once a week or bi-monthly. I've had this in the past and find it very valuable. The thing is you can't really write without input, at least not well, so writers have to do whatever it takes to get the work out to people.
I know personally if I take on too many things at once, I might forget about one of them. Or sometimes I see an email and don't immediately have time to respond to it. By the time I do have time, the beta might not be at the front of my mind. There are lots of reasons why a beta might disappear, and I'd like to think it's more due to human error than spite/insensitivity. Organization (keeping track of what you've agreed to read) goes a long way, but I've learned that minimizing how much I accept at once typically does the trick.
Sebastien,It's hard to get someone who is reliable. As someone who's hired countless freelancers over the years I can't tell you how many people have told me:
their dog died
their family member died
they got the flu
they had emergency surgery
they were without power for five days
they forgot
And the best....
they just disappear.
Many people in general just don't have the courage or respect to say, "Hey, I thought I could do this, but for X reason I can't. Sorry about that!"
But don't give up! Not everyone is a flake! Just look in a different box! (I had to do the joke, just couldn't stop myself)
There are lots of really good and really reliable betas here in the group, paid and not paid. At least if you use a paid service, you're more likely to get your project completed.
We're happy to help you if you decide to go that route!
-Rachel
You might also try going IRL. In the spring of this year, I joined a local writers group that a friend of mine started up and I've had excellent feedback from them. I just joined my local chapter of the California Writers Club (the oldest writing club in the West and established in 1909) and they have a beta readers group. If you live in California, you might consider checking out one of their local chapters:http://calwriters.org/cwcbranches/
I'm sure that other geos have similar writer clubs. And they might be only a duckduckgo.com search-page away! ^_^
Thank you to everyone for the support and helpful responses.
Sebastien, your lament about disappearing readers really helped me because I've had the same problem, not so much on Goodreads, but people who seem genuinely enthusiastic about reading a manuscript, then fall off the face of the earth. Frankly, I've worried a bit about manuscripts floating around out there, but your post and the ensuing comments relieved that concern quite a bit. Don't have any advice to avoid this, but thanks for the post. Lisa
L K wrote: "Sebastien, your lament about disappearing readers really helped me because I've had the same problem, not so much on Goodreads, but people who seem genuinely enthusiastic about reading a manuscript..."Lisa, thank you for your response, and thanks to everyone that replied. I know it's not only me, but it helps to hear from other people that are experiencing the same issue.
Hey there Denise,Your web site is interesting, surely your writing is as well. If you're still having problems getting feedback, PM me and I'll take a look at the first couple of chapters of whatever you need input on.
I'm writing a murder mystery of my own right now ;-)
Denise wrote: "I just joined this group, and can relate to the disappearing act of beta readers. When I first started out writing, I joined a site called, Absolute Write. All the beta readers I found on there wou..."Denise wrote: "I just joined this group, and can relate to the disappearing act of beta readers. When I first started out writing, I joined a site called, Absolute Write. All the beta readers I found on there wou..."
Thanks for the reply Denise. I have had similar experiences and I'm sure many people have. If people are going to disappear, I only wish they would do it 'before' they take my manuscript. It's very frustrating and upsetting on many levels.
Also, thanks for the offer. Please feel free to message me if you do find time or if I can help you in any way.
This question has driven me to the point of writing to an honest-to-goodness advice column a while ago. I'm still deeply frustrated about it, but maybe the advice I got can help people reading this: https://storyhospital.com/2017/09/19/...
Clementine, I read your blog - thanks so much for taking the time to write some useful advice. On of my takeaways from this conversation is any author who has a couple of reliable beta readers is pretty well off. Lisa
Clementine wrote: "This question has driven me to the point of writing to an honest-to-goodness advice column a while ago. I'm still deeply frustrated about it, but maybe the advice I got can help people reading this..."Clementine, thanks for posting the blog and the advice. I think that it lists things that most, if not all of us try to do when connecting with a beta reader. It is really frustrating and continues to be for me as well.
Sometimes Beta readers don't know how to tell someone their story isn't good. We writers are of a sensitive breed and go nuts on people who criticize our work. I feel someone out first if they freak out on me I will either tell them what they want to hear or ghost them. Not worth the drama.
I find it very disturbing that you would freely advertise that you 'ghost' people that have given you their written work. And if you are just telling them what they want to hear, you're not helping them either. To me the agreement between a beta and an author is one of great trust. The author is giving the beta something very important and asking for them to take care of it, and give feedback. While I think anyone would agree that there are times when an author—especially new ones—will find it hard to take criticism, but telling them only what they want to hear helps no one. What would be worse is to take their work and 'ghost' them. At the very least delete their work and tell them that you'll not continue for reason X. To disappear seems to me to break the most basic, fundamental agreement between a beta and a writer. I'll be honest, to brag about 'ghosting' writers because you 'don't want the drama' seems really callous and cruel. It takes a few sentences to tell them you've decided this isn't for you, and that you've deleted their manuscript. I really hope you've not done this to a lot of people. If you are 'ghosting' people, you really shouldn't be beta reading. That's only my opinion, so take it for what it's worth. To do something like that as a matter of practice seems to me to be fundamentally cruel and dishonest.
Sebastien wrote: "I find it very disturbing that you would freely advertise that you 'ghost' people that have given you their written work. And if you are just telling them what they want to hear, you're not helping..."I believe the person you are directing your comments toward is an author, not a beta reader. She "ghosts" beta readers that don't feel right to her after asking them to read her hard work.
If you are willing to pay and do a little research, I don’t think it’s THAT hard to find reliable beta readers. I ended up paying four readers I found through this group, and all of them delivered feedback as promised and in a timely manner. Paid readers are much easier to sort through and vet—you can look at their websites, reviews from authors, etc. Many of them don’t ask for payment upfront or they ask for only half payment. (Which is totally fair. I’ve beta read for authors only to have them completely disappear without so much as a thank you.) The problem with free readers is there’s no way to sort through the offers. They almost never have websites (unless they are trying to build a clientele), reviews, etc. You’re pretty much picking blind and hoping you find someone reliable.
So I guess my recommendation is -- if being ghosted really upsets you, go with paid readers who only charge after they complete the read.
Good post; I do not understand that type of attitude. I love beta reading, and I take it very seriously! I always assure writers that I've received their work. Sometimes I have turn around within a day because, as I writer myself, I understand how important this process is to a person. Even if I don't particularly like someone's work, I will still give an overall impression but decline a thorough read. It's just common courtesy.
Eidolon wrote: "Good post; I do not understand that type of attitude. I love beta reading, and I take it very seriously! I always assure writers that I've received their work. Sometimes I have turn around within a..."That is exactly my feeling Eidolon. I think what you posted would be very much appreciated by most if not all that are wanting a beta reader.
I have the exact same problem. I’m at the beginning of my writing journey, I don;t have money to pay for beta readers right now. And of course as an amateur, I don’t have a fan base :)It’s so hard to find people to beta read and send feedback. It’s so frustrating sometimes I want to quit writing.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that you guys made me feel a little better. Now I know it’s happening to all of us :)
Jen wrote: "If you are willing to pay and do a little research, I don’t think it’s THAT hard to find reliable beta readers. I ended up paying four readers I found through this group, and all of them delivered ..."I have recently started looking at paid beta readers. However, the last one took my manuscript and disappeared for weeks without a word. I also want to make it clear that I have done quite a bit of research, it has not been with a good deal of effort on my part. I would think most writers try to vet their beta's to some degree.
I think you are possibly assuming a few things when you imply that it's easy. I can only speak from my experience, but certainly the genre, and the length of the material have a direct impact on finding, and being able to afford a paid reader. I also don't know of very many people/writers that I've come in contact with that wouldn't be upset by being ghosted, especially when it happens with some frequency. You've got a book that you've undoubtedly worked hard on, surely if you sent it to numerous people that accepted it and disappeared, it would be upsetting to you as well. To take a direct quote from you, "how we treat one another matters." I agree completely.
My guess is that you are probably correct in that the chance of being ghosted is reduced dramatically by engaging a paid reader. However, that being said, not everyone can afford paid readers which is probably why the free ones are so popular. Not to mention it can be a very iterative process, and can become very expensive over the long haul.
In short I agree that paying for beta readers is wonderful, and less risk if you can afford it. In addition, there are a lot of free readers that will do fantastic work, and are every bit as professional. I've been lucky to have found three, but this post was purely about raising an issue that I believe affects a lot more people than just me, and seems to happen a lot more than it should.
Thanks again for everyone's comments and suggestions.
Melee wrote: "I have the exact same problem. I’m at the beginning of my writing journey, I don;t have money to pay for beta readers right now. And of course as an amateur, I don’t have a fan base :)It’s so hard..."
Melee, I think it is the experience of a lot of people. I've been here for a few years and made a few really great friends. I think the more awareness, suggestions and support we give each other, the easier it should be for others who are new or struggling. :) If nothing else—to your point at least they'll know they're not the only one.
If you’re an FB user, you might try Writers Helping Writers or Fiction Writers (recommended from https://www.janefriedman.com/find-bet... which is BTW a free, reliable and vetted resource for writing and publishing advice).You might also try your local writers group. The library might be also be a way of finding local writers groups. If you live in California, try the venerable California Writers Club founded in 1909. I’m a member and find it extremely useful. I just attended a workshop on POV and characterization and met fellow writers. Here’s their page to find a branch near you: http://calwriters.org/cwcbranches/
Many branches have beta reading/critique groups.
Alex, thank you for that post. Unfortunately, I am on the other side of the country. I did read the Jane Friedman link some time ago and got a lot of good information from it. Thank you,
I hope you reported the paid reader who disappeared to the board moderator.Want to talk about a downer? I've read two manuscripts where I spent 8-10 hours minimum commenting and then the author did not even acknowledge my feedback. Nothing. Nada. They just disappeared into the ether. That's why I no longer offer to beta read for free. I'd definitely swap and help out other authors that way, though.
In terms of finding readers, believe me, I get it. I wrote the most non-commercial novel in the history of the world. :)
If you can't afford to pay a reader, consider sweat equity. Offer to swap and help out another author. Otherwise, start making friends with other writers and ask who they have used.
Were you expecting them to say thank you?
I paid betas to read for me. Of the three I paid, only one was actually helpful. One of them sent back a full page worth of insults and how he wasn’t going to edit a paragraph filled with “I” sentences. If I want someone to insult me, I wouldn’t have to pay for it.
I _always_ say thank you, even if I don't agree with anything they have to say. Even if paid, their hourly rate is such that they'd be better off flipping burgers, so they are making a huge investment of time and energy. I think it is rude as hell to be ignored after that amount of work, and I assure you I'd never beta for someone again who did that to me.
Keith wrote: "I _always_ say thank you, even if I don't agree with anything they have to say. Even if paid, their hourly rate is such that they'd be better off flipping burgers, so they are making a huge investm..."Agreed. I always put a lot of time and energy into my beta reads, so it's disappointing when the writer doesn't at least acknowledge the effort you've made.
@Elisa, I would never fill my critiques and feedback full of insults, though. I'm professional and courteous enough to word criticisms constructively. I'm sorry if you had a bad experience.
I seem to have a lot of bad experiences with betas and/or editors. Maybe I just attract negative people. Either way, I’ve wasted a lot of money for subpar results and I’m never doing that again. I’d rather deal with free betas than risking rent money. And I do thank them. I thank everyone. Even the asshole that sent back 5 pages, single spaced, in detail of how much each and every one of my characters are stupid and unlikeable. She also threw in a few notes about how horrible my writing is and how I could never write intelligent characters even if I tried. Every chapter had the comment, “if I wasn’t beta reading this, I wouldn’t stopped a long time ago.”
Jen wrote: "If you can't afford to pay a reader, consider sweat equity. Offer to swap and help out another author. Otherwise, start making friends with other writers and ask who they have used.”Practical advice even if you can afford to pay.
Maybe just like editors many times offer to edit the first few pages of an ms for free, writers should also ask that of beta readers? Sometimes, for whatever reason, it’s just not a good fit.
Personally I'm gonna be going into the bush for several weeks for work. I've warned a few people that I'm beta reading for that this is happening and they might not hear from me for a while. Sometimes people just get busy with life. I can't hold them accountable. I'm not paying them just asking for help. It sucks but its life
Jen wrote: "I hope you reported the paid reader who disappeared to the board moderator.Want to talk about a downer? I've read two manuscripts where I spent 8-10 hours minimum commenting and then the author d..."
Thanks for the reply Jen, all good ideas and good things to consider. And I do believe it would feel bad to work so hard to help someone and not get any acknowledgement. Courtesy should go both ways. I think it must help Beta's to get feedback so they can hone their skills as well. It is a collaboration and can work so wonderfully when both parties communicate.
Elisa wrote: "I paid betas to read for me. Of the three I paid, only one was actually helpful. One of them sent back a full page worth of insults and how he wasn’t going to edit a paragraph filled with “I” sente..."Elisa, that would certainly frustrate anyone. I feel strongly that people can critique constructively without being nasty about it. While I'm sure it helps to have a thicker skin, nothing suggests that someone can't say what they need to say to an author tactfully, or to a reader for that matter. It's certainly more enjoyable on both sides to be able have a good dialog between the reader and writer.
Alex wrote: "Jen wrote: "If you can't afford to pay a reader, consider sweat equity. Offer to swap and help out another author. Otherwise, start making friends with other writers and ask who they have used.”Alex, I agree. It helps if you can get a reader to read a little up front, or edit for that matter. It seems most are open to the idea.
Elisa wrote: "Were you expecting them to say thank you?"Yes, I was expecting them to say thank you. Why wouldn't they say thank you? I volunteered my time and read their manuscript for them for free. I gave up my own writing time & free time to help them. I don't write mean critiques; if I felt I couldn't say something nice, I would politely tell the author the work isn't for me.
A free beta reader derives little other than the satisfaction that they helped an author. But as Keith pointed out, even the paid reader could make more flipping burgers.
It's pretty simple for me. If you agree to beta reader for an author, you read their work and give them the feedback they asked for. You're polite, you're honest. You respect their hard work and their vision. If you don't love it and you wanna quit, let them know why - rejecting their work may actually help them improve it. Don't be a jerk about it. If you're an author and someone gives you their time, especially if it's for free, say thank you. If you don't agree with, or can't handle their technical feedback (not talking about personal opinions) tell your betas upfront you only want praise. In which case; why are you here? Common courtesy seems to work quite well...
Elisa wrote: "Were you expecting them to say thank you?"I'm a beta reader and once I respond committing to reading a manuscript, I follow through and complete what I committed to do. I do this for free. I take time to do something for a writer for no other reason other than because I enjoy it. I have a paid regular job and I am not a writer. I give back a great amount of feedback for a full book... for free. And I do this within a set period of time.
I always expect at least a thank you. I don't think that's a lot to ask in return.
Elisa wrote: "Were you expecting them to say thank you?"Jen wrote: "I hope you reported the paid reader who disappeared to the board moderator.
Want to talk about a downer? I've read two manuscripts where I spent 8-10 hours minimum commenting and then the author d..."
Yes, I do expect a "thank you." I think that comes under the definition of common courtesy. Over the last couple of years, I have lost track of the number of manuscripts I've beta read. I've spent anywhere from 3 to 8 hours reading manuscripts. I leave comments in track changes and also provide a summary to authors. And, so far, I've received positive feedback from all my beta authors.
Jac wrote: "It's pretty simple for me. If you agree to beta reader for an author, you read their work and give them the feedback they asked for. You're polite, you're honest. You respect their hard work and th..."Jac, that is really well put and exactly what I would want and expect. The relationship between a beta and a reader should always be one of mutual respect, and certainly appreciation for the reader. It is a true gift to have someone read your book and give you feedback, even if the feedback is not what you wanted. If it's given as you described then it can only help, and as you pointed out that is the end goal.
Brenda wrote: "Elisa wrote: "Were you expecting them to say thank you?"I'm a beta reader and once I respond committing to reading a manuscript, I follow through and complete what I committed to do. I do this fo..."
Brenda, I agree that all beta's should get at least a thank you. I've been lucky to have become friends with the few I've had, but that in itself is a great gift. The beta's are doing a huge job for the writer and it's feedback that is critical to the process.
Sebastien wrote: "I find it very disturbing that you would freely advertise that you 'ghost' people that have given you their written work. And if you are just telling them what they want to hear, you're not helping..."Some people don't want help, they want validation. I am willing to give them that. I know it is bad but I have had some authors get down right nasty for "being to ignorant to understand their story"
I am not bragging I am giving a reason why I have done it. I have been ghosted by authors I have critisized as well. People just do that sometimes.
To be honest, if you're ghosting people, I'm surprised the moderator's have not caught up with you. It sounds like you're playing a game. If you're serious, you really shouldn't be beta reading for anyone. If you're trolling, I wish you would pick another site, either way I find your response appalling.
Im sorry to hear that betas do this stupid stuff. Not replying to your mails or saying they are too busy to read AFTER they have received the book. I am also glad that you found 3 wonderful betas! :-)
Ayesha wrote: "Im sorry to hear that betas do this stupid stuff. Not replying to your mails or saying they are too busy to read AFTER they have received the book. I am also glad that you found 3 wonderful betas! :-)"Ayesha, yes I've been very lucky to have found three great beta's, and I'm sure there are many more great ones out there!
I know that there has been many articles written about this topic, but this issue has pretty much broken me recently. I have had reader after reader take my manuscript, and then disappear like a wisp of smoke. For the life of me I can't seem to figure out why, or what is going on.
I have been patient, and many times waited weeks or months for replies, and received nothing. Not a word. Not "I'm busy and I'll get back to you." Not, "This is not for me, but thanks." Nothing. Not a word, nada. In the past I have been lucky to have found three fantastic readers here on GR's, but to get them has taken years and I've had to make an incredible amount of contacts and requests. So many people post, "Hey I'll read it," then you send it, and then poof. It's exhausting, and to be honest, I can't do it anymore.
I can't wrap my mind around why people take your manuscript, and then vanish. Why? Why not at least say, "No, I've changed my mind." Or maybe you don't have time anymore. Maybe school started and now you're buried with kids or homework. Fine, if something has come up, then say so. It's take a few sec's to write a one line email and send it. Why is that so very hard to do??
And, yes, I've seen all the threads, and the replies by people jumping on board immediately to tell you what a rookie you are, and not to worry about your manuscript. Making sure you understand that no one really cares about it, that no one is going to take it, or steal it. So often people are immediately shamed for feeling anxious by having their work taken by someone that goes off the grid the minute you hit send.
I've also seen the attitude that your very request is an imposition. "Hey, these people are doing you a favor so STFU and wait." Really? So, I'm not allowed to even ask if they could open the attachment? Or, have you received it? Did it get lost? Do I need to send it again? Wouldn't common courtesy dictate at least some kind of response indicating that the intended reader has at least gotten the email? Apparently not. And to be quite honest, it's not just free readers, I have had this experience with paid beta services as well.
I've also heard, "Dude, people are busy." Yeah, I know, I'm in IT and I work about 80 hours a week. But guess what? I've got 5 secs to write an email. People tend to make time for what they feel is important. For some out there, responding to people must not be something they feel is important.
So, why does it seem there is great communication before you send your manuscript? Is the writing awful and beta's don't want to say so? I for one, would at least like to know. Okay, fine, it was horrible for you and you have changed your mind after the first paragraph or chapter. Great, please at least let me know.
So, yes, it could be that my book sucks, and sucks bad. I get that. Not every book is for everyone. But, shouldn't I at least get a response? I know there are others out there that have experienced what I'm going through, too many to be honest. For them, I truly hope they find someone. For the people out there that take manuscripts and bolt into the ether, please take five seconds and reply. It doesn't have to be long, it can be three or four words. "Not for me." "I'm too busy." "Don't want to read." Something for gods sake. Anything at all, is better than nothing.
Do I understand that life happens? Yes, of course, but all it takes is a five second response 'at some point' to let the person know you'll not be able to read for them and that you've deleted their manuscript.
For those that will immediately say it's all part of the process. It's a Sisyphean task, I do know. I just believe that with a tiny bit of effort, the communication could be a lot better. I'm sure in some cases, on both sides.
I'm blessed to have found the three people that I have. They are great friends and I'm so lucky to have them. I can only hope that things get better. Thanks to all of the beta readers that do work so hard and communicate, you are a so very important.
Good luck to everyone. For my phenomenal beta reader, Jill, Christy, and Kathe, thank you so very much.