At Bertram's Hotel - SPOILER Thread

[Mark Pghfan]

I'm not sure about Rendell, but I think PD James scolded Christie more for her lack of esoteric writing style. Perhaps it is because of the plain writing that Christie is so well remembered and still selling well. Her writing style was directed more to middle class readers.

[Roman Clodia]

Christie's writing may be 'plain' but she's brilliantly economical: e.g a gem from Death on the Nile:

'He was popularly supposed 'to write', but it was understood among his friends that inquiries as to literary output were not encouraged.'

It would take some writers a paragraph to communicate what Christie does in a sentence!

[Susan]

What a wonderful quote, RC! I quite agree and think it is just literary snobbery. When I was reading, "Howard's End is on the Landing," Susan Hill makes a similar point about Ian Fleming, who was sneered at for being 'popular,' and I suspect it is the success that irks often. Obviously, J K Rowling is another example, as is Enid Blyton.

[Roman Clodia]

Yes, and it's odd to pigeonhole readers who can have omnivorous tastes - no reason why we can't appreciate Christie alongside the Henry James and Salman Rushdies of the literary world!

[Susan]

I have never understood that. Literary fiction is wonderful, but nothing would be published unless genre books, like crime, made money for the publishing companies.

[Judy]

Hmm, I wonder if there are any detective stories about disagreements/rivalries between authors writing different types of fiction? Sounds like an interesting theme!

[Roman Clodia]

I have the feeling I read something like that by Val McDermid but it was very silly!

We do have authors using a pen-name for detective fiction: it was Susan who told me that Nicholas Blake was CS Lewis, and we currently have John Banville writing crime under Benjamin Black - so internal rivalry/disagreement maybe!

[Susan]

Nicholas Blake was Cecil Day-Lewis, RC. I suspect you may have known that and just clicked the wrong button :)

Of course, many authors dig at others in novels - Evelyn Waugh famously humiliated Oxford Academic C R M F Cruttwell in many books, with absurd characters being given the name, so that Cruttwell was said to live in fear before any publication of Waugh's latest novel.

P G Wodehouse and A A Milne also had a feud and Wodehouse lampooned Milne in print. In more modern terms, Salman Rushdie and John Updike had a good spat - of course, Rushdie had the best (and last) words... I can think of more, but not necessarily with crime writers, although I am sure they exist.

[Judy]

Roman Clodia wrote: "It's a little disconcerting that the main 'murder mystery' is that of Elvira and the Irish doorman (whose name I've forgotten - Mick something?), when so much of the interest of the book is on what..."

I agree, RC - this is an aspect of this book which disappointed me. The murder seems to be almost tagged on at the end and there isn't much time to wonder who the killer is before we find out! For most of the book, readers are left guessing who the victim will be and whether there will even be a death?!

Has anyone come across any other mysteries where the murder comes this late on? Probably better not say which books to avoid spoilers, but I did read one detective story (not GA) which had 'death' in the title but where nobody actually died, and I've also read at least one other where the death comes very late - but it's not that usual!

[Susan]

We were talking before about literary feuds, etc. I am about to read Cakes and Ale (I can hardly say re-read, as I last read it over 30 years ago) and I see one of the characters was said to be based on Hugh Walpole. Although Somerset Maugham denied this, apparently it destroyed Walpole's literary reputation, so I look forward to finding out why!

[Roman Clodia]

Susan wrote: "Nicholas Blake was Cecil Day-Lewis, RC. I suspect you may have known that and just clicked the wrong button :)"

Giggling hysterically here at the thought of CS Lewis...! That'll teach me to post in a rush...

[Sandy]

Judy wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "It's a little disconcerting that the main 'murder mystery' is that of Elvira and the Irish doorman (whose name I've forgotten - Mick something?), when so much of the interest o..."

I definitely felt the murder was tacked on, not part of the main story. And Miss Marple was not really involved with the major investigation but was following Elvira's actions. I enjoyed the weaving of the two threads, but the plots were not really connected.

[Leslie]

Susan wrote: "We were talking before about literary feuds, etc. I am about to read Cakes and Ale (I can hardly say re-read, as I last read it over 30 years ago) and I see one of the characters was ..."

I loved that book when I read it a few years ago. Maybe I should reread it sometime but there are so many new-to-me books out there...

[Leslie]

This is the first book of the challenge which I found didn't live up to my memory. I ended up downgrading my rating from 4 to 3 stars.

As Sandy said, Miss Marple was present but not really involved in the detecting.

[Paperbackreader]

As with all Miss Marple books, I have read At Bertram's Hotel multiple times. When I first read it, I also thought maybe Gorman was Elvira's father.

As this is a ‘late’ Christie the writing does feel a little rusty. But there is still that odd spark here and there lighting up the narrative. Like Miss Marple at the restaurant and later at the Bettersea Park, overhearing snippets of conversation and deducing facts from them.

I think, as with most of the later Christie novels, At Bertram's Hotel has a feeling of reminiscence to it. As Miss Marple (and Christie herself) grows older she reminisces of the way things used to be and the way things are. Here, Miss Marple travels around London and remembers her childhood. The changes do sadden her but she is also practical enough to see that nothing can stay the same. And if they do, something is amiss.

[Lady Clementina]

Paperbackreader wrote: "I think, as with most of the later Christie novels, At Bertram's Hotel has a feeling of reminiscence to it. ..."
So true- that was partly the case with Postern of Fate (Tommy and Tuppence) as well- reminiscence, observation of and reaction to change- those are the aspects I'm actually enjoying reading them this time around since I remember most (not all) of the mystery aspects of the books.

[Susan]

I remember some of the books, better than others, I find (even though I have read them all before). I can't recall much of next month's read, "They Do It With Mirrors," but perhaps it will come back to me as I read on.

[Joanne]

I agree about reminiscences and changes from how things used to be. I'm impressed that Christie throws a reality check at her readers with the fact that Bertram's is not exactly what it appears. It adds an "anti-cozy" element to this book. But I also liked the first part of the book depicting Miss Marple's enjoyment of the hotel's apparent splendor, food, manners, etc. Not one of my favorite Marples, but worth reading.

[Susan]

I think it is one of those Marple's where Christie endeavoured to give her fans what they expected in terms of setting. Bertram's combined the anonymity of a hotel, but yet that had cosy, family feel, where your wants were known and nobody seemed to need to check in, but were expected!

[Mark Pghfan]

I wonder whether Christie herself had visited a hotel like this in her youth and then re-visited it again in old age, as a remembrance? I think that this sort of this frequently the genesis for some of her plots and settings.

Clearly her years in the middle east and Egypt featured in her books, as well as the Orient Express. Even the pool setting in The Hollow served as inspiration. So why not this?

[Roman Clodia]

Paperbackreader wrote: "Miss Marple travels around London and remembers her childhood. The changes do sadden her but she is also practical enough to see that nothing can stay the same."

Yes, I like the robustness of Miss Marple, that rather than wringing her hands over how things aren't what they once were, she's ready to throw herself into the pleasures of the present.

Did I miss it, or did she fail to draw analogies between characters in this book and village parallels?

[Paperbackreader]

Roman Clodia wrote: "Paperbackreader wrote: "Miss Marple travels around London and remembers her childhood. The changes do sadden her but she is also practical enough to see that nothing can stay the same...."

Exactly. I have also noticed this in The Mirror Crack'd from Side to Side, another late Christie.

[Judy]

Roman Clodia wrote: "Did I miss it, or did she fail to draw analogies between characters in this book and village parallels? ..."

I think you might be right, R.C. I didn't notice her doing this in the book, though I could have missed it too... but she does it a lot in the Joan Hickson TV adaptation, comparing the racing driver to someone from St Mary Mead.

[Susan]

There were certainly less village parallels in this book. Perhaps Christie thought it was all a bit too repetitive. She is often accused of being formulaic and, I think there was a bit of that at times, but she tended to avoid too many of those traps. I find that, in modern cosies, there is often far too much recapping of characters, etc at the beginning of every novel in a series. Christie, and others of her generation, expected readers to remember characters and places, with just a gentle reminder.

[Judy]

Susan wrote: "I find that, in modern cosies, there is often far too much recapping of characters, etc at the beginning of every novel in a series...."

I sometimes find this too, Susan, but some series go to the other extreme and leave me struggling to remember complicated family relationships, love life etc from the last book I read a few years back! It must be a hard balance to strike I suppose, enough recapping but not too much.

[Roman Clodia]

Judy wrote: "but she does it a lot in the Joan Hickson TV adaptation, comparing the racing driver to someone from St Mary Mead. "

That's interesting if the TV writer inserted more 'Christie' than Christie did herself!

[Judy]

This has been mentioned in one of the other Miss Marple books (I won't say which one because of spoilers!) - but once again here we get a former husband and wife meeting up, and it seems as if the ex-wife doesn't recognise her former husband at first! I do find this very unlikely, however much he had changed over the years!

[Paperbackreader]

Judy wrote: "This has been mentioned in one of the other Miss Marple books (I won't say which one because of spoilers!) - but once again here we get a former husband and wife meeting up, and it seems as if the ..."

I know which book you are talking about. :D

Yes, even though Christie explained why it happened, it is still kind of far fetched.

But then again, the wife maybe like me. I have trouble remembering names and faces and maybe I would be hard pressed to remember my ex if I met him a few years down the line. haha

[Susan]

I am sure they would, at least, look familiar enough that you looked more closely though. Besides, it isn't usually a face that reminds you of someone, but just the way they walk. I actually ran into an old friend of mine quite by chance at a station and, even though she was in front of me and I hadn't seen her for about ten years, I recognised her instantly by the way she looked from the back and moved. So, I do think you would definitely recognise someone you had actually been married to, however many years had passed.

[Mark Pghfan]

I think the reason Bess didn't notice her first husband right away was more because of the situation--him being a doorman, and less that he changed that much. Of course he recognized her because her photo has been published so much.

The ex-wife not recognizing her first husband also appears in a Poirot book...

[Paperbackreader]

Mark Pghfan wrote: "I think the reason Bess didn't notice her first husband right away was more because of the situation--him being a doorman, and less that he changed that much. Of course he recognized her because he..."

Yes, I agree with your logic. Bess simply may not have expected Gorman to be working as a doorman.

And I remember that Poirot book too. Now, that was even more far-fetched than any of these!

[Roman Clodia]

Ooh, intrigued about which Poirot book you're talking about!

And yes, Mick Gorman, not just a doorman but in a uniform and (I think?) hat. I think I could overlook an ex... 😉

[Lady Clementina]

Roman Clodia wrote: "Ooh, intrigued about which Poirot book you're talking about!

And yes, Mick Gorman, not just a doorman but in a uniform and (I think?) hat. I think I could overlook an ex... 😉"
I agree as well- she wouldn't ahve expected him to be there and as a doorman. Don't people always use waiter/ress or housemaid disguises in stories because people are least likely to look at their faces.

[Paperbackreader]

"I agree as well- she wouldn't ahve expected him to be there and as a doorman. Don't people always use waiter/ress or housemaid disguises in stories because people are least likely to look at their faces. "

Have you read the Father Brown short story 'The Invisible Man'? Not the 2015 "so called" adaptation but the original story from The Innocence of Father Brown. That has an interesting take on the uses of disguise.

[Lady Clementina]

Paperbackreader wrote: ""I agree as well- she wouldn't ahve expected him to be there and as a doorman. Don't people always use waiter/ress or housemaid disguises in stories because people are least likely to look at their..."

I must have because I have read the Complete Father Brown but I don't remember it at all. Let me dig out my copy and have a look.

[Paperbackreader]

Lady Clementina wrote: "I must have because I have read the Complete Father Brown but I don't remember it at all. Let me dig out my copy and have a look. "

Come to think of it, it was not really a disguise the character was using. Nevertheless, no one knew him/her because of 'what' he had become. (I am twisting my words into knots to avoid spoilers! ha ha)

[Mark Pghfan]

I'll give you a hint on the Poirot book we were thinking of: It was set in the middle east. I hope that's not too much of a spoiler!

[Roman Clodia]

Ah ha - yes, I remember now, thanks! Some creepy moments in that one...

[Lady Clementina]

Mark Pghfan wrote: "I'll give you a hint on the Poirot book we were thinking of: It was set in the middle east. I hope that's not too much of a spoiler!"
Ah- now I remember. I've read that one a few times.

[Lady Clementina]

Roman Clodia wrote: "Ah ha - yes, I remember now, thanks! Some creepy moments in that one..."

Ha ha- we seem to have been typing at the same time :)

[Tara]

This one has been my least favorite Marple so far. The murder is so much of an afterthought, I almost feel like the story would have been better without it. It felt rushed and besides the point. I would have enjoyed a deeper dive into the criminal syndicate as a resolution to the story.

I also found it to be quite a shame that Bertram's ended up being nothing but a front. It was a neat thought that you could have a place to go that transports you not only in place, but also in time, and done in such a classy, lovely way.

You would think, reading this back to back with A Caribbean Mystery, that Miss Marple would be hesitant to go on vacation, as everywhere she goes, murder seems to follow her. I get that when you have a non-professional detective you have to keep inventing ways for them to get involved in investigations, but at what point does it really become beyond belief?

[Sandy]

Regarding finding crimes for non-professionals:
My parents loved the TV program "Murder She Wrote" but my father was amused by the bad luck of the star's relatives. A new tragedy each week.
And its even a problem for the professionals; I've heard comments that the small town in "Midsummer Murders" should be empty by now.

[Tara]

Sandy wrote: "Regarding finding crimes for non-professionals:
My parents loved the TV program "Murder She Wrote" but my father was amused by the bad luck of the star's relatives. A new tragedy each week.
And i..."
That is a funny thought about a slew of murders in a small town. Statistically speaking, its just impossible. But if murder mysteries were limited to only big city homicide detectives, I doubt people would enjoy the genre as much.

I think the most interesting aspect of it, both for Miss Marple (and Jessica Fletcher), is that the almost constant exposure to murder doesn't seem to greatly affect their personalities or their outlook on humanity (at least as far as being overly cynical is concerned). I have always found the trope about the scarred, dysfunctional cop who cannot stay out of trouble or keep his or her personal life in order to be quite tiresome, but you would have to think that seeing all of that death and disregard for human life to have some impact on you.

[Lady Clementina]

Tara wrote: "This one has been my least favorite Marple so far. The murder is so much of an afterthought, I almost feel like the story would have been better without it. It felt rushed and besides the point. I ..."

Going on vacation and inevitably coming across a murder is one of the pitfalls of being a detective :)

[Susan]

Yes, the amount of murders in small villages, or on holidays, must be viewed with a certain amount of tolerance in mystery books. I suppose it is easier with those, like Wimsey, who actively sought them out - but if you are just stumbling across them, it is difficult to keep creating likely scenarios.

[Mark Pghfan]

Speaking of Midsomer Murders, I remember an interview with John Nettles, who played the original Barnaby, where he was asked about all the many (100+) murders in the county. He calmly remarked "well, it HAS been commented upon!"

[Lady Clementina]

Mark Pghfan wrote: "Speaking of Midsomer Murders, I remember an interview with John Nettles, who played the original Barnaby, where he was asked about all the many (100+) murders in the county. He calmly remarked "wel..."

There was also one interview where he mentions bodies they completely forgot about since there were so many.

[Jill]

He also said there was no way he would live there.

[Roman Clodia]

Yes, I hadn't realised before how little time Miss Marple actually seems to spend in St Mary's Mead - Christie was obviously too smart to overburden a small village with a slew of murders... there'd be no-one left!

[Paperbackreader]

Tara wrote: "I also found it to be quite a shame that Bertram's ended up being nothing but a front. It was a neat thought that you could have a place to go that transports you not only in place, but also in time, and done in such a classy, lovely way."

Yeah, but that is kind of the point here. No matter how much we long to go back to an idyllic past, it is not possible and perhaps not even desirable. Change is inevitable. I enjoy how Christie basically tries to keep it rooted in reality. Maybe it's a pessimistic view of the world but there it is.