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Where Did Christendom's Trinity Come From?
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Alter2Ego wrote: "Robert: Oh, how you wish it were that simple...."My response: It IS that simple. I accept the entire Bible and ALL that it teaches. You REJECT ALL that you don't like.
That is why you ONLY accepted the verse stating that the Father is God... and REJECTED the verses saying Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit it God.
VERY SIMPLE!
Robert wrote: "Alter2Ego wrote: "The holy spirit is not God. Instead, the holy spirit BELONGS to God. ..."My response: Thank you for you OPINION... however, God says you are WRONG.
Quote one verse that says th..."
Robert:
I already responded to your claim that the holy spirit is God by showing you that the word "OF" refers to a possession/something owned, and that therefore, the "spirit OF God" is not also God.
If you want to keep repeating the same debunked scripture from Acts 5:3-4, go ahead and repeat. It will not change the reality that Jehovah's holy spirit is NOT God but rather, it is something OWNED by Jehovah.
By the way, scripture also refers to "the spirit of Jesus Christ."
"You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ." (Romans 8:9 -- New International Version)
According to Christendom's Trinity there are supposedly THREE persons (Father, Son, and holy spirit). So since Jehovah has holy spirit and Jesus also has his own spirit, that makes two different spirits.
QUESTION TO ROBERT: Father (Jehovah) + Son (Jesus Christ) + Jehovah's holy spirit + the spirit of Christ at Romans 8:9 = 4 persons. Christendom's Trinity says there are only 3 persons. How do you solve the problem of Jesus' spirit, as mentioned at Romans 8:9?
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Alter2Ego wrote: "Robert: I already responded to your claim that the holy spirit is God by showing you that the word "OF" refers ..."My response: YOU OPINION is NOT a Bible response.
Robert wrote: "Very straightforward... Jesus IS GOD!John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the
Word was with God, and the Word was God."
Robert:
John 1:1 is a favorite for Trinitarians since their routine is to ignore context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters).
John 1:1 has three independent clauses, as follows:
CLAUSE #1: "In the BEGINNING was the Word,
CLAUSE #2: and the Word was with God,
CLAUSE #3: and the Word was God."
You, like all Trinitarians, focused on Clause #3, to the exclusion of Clauses #1 and #2. Look at the word that I bolded in Clause #1 above. It tells us that the spirit creature referred to as the Word had a BEGINNING.
That single word ("beginning") contradicts the manipulation that was done by Trinitarian Bible translators at Clause #3. How so? Because according to Christendom's definition of Trinity, the Son is co-eternal with the Father. John 1:1 at Clause #1 says Jesus Christ aka the Word had a beginning.
An eternal person cannot have a beginning.
DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": "Eternal means not having a beginning or an end." [/COLOR]
http://www.yourdictionary.com/eternal
Now, look at Clause #2. It says: "the Word was WITH God...." Taken literally in a Trinity God scenario, that would amount to God being with himself. Now tell me, what sense does that make?
When one moves further into the book of John chapter 1, Trinity is even further debunked contradicted by other verses of scriptures. I will point those out to you in a separate post.
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Alter2Ego wrote: "Christendom's Trinity says there are only 3 persons. How do you solve the problem of Jesus' spirit, as mentioned at Romans 8:9?..."My response: That is VERY EASY to explain why you cannot understand it...
1 Corinthians 2:14
John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
HE
shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."God the Father and Jesus, God the Son, believe that the Holy Ghost is a PERSON (not an "it"). They call Him "HE" !
Very straightforward... Jesus IS GOD! The Word of God says that Jesus IS GOD!The Bible is RIGHT... Alter2Ego is WRONG!
John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ."
Below this line is a link to more than 50 English Bible translations and ZERO PRECENT of them proclaim that the Word is NOT GOD... NOT ONE!
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https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en...
Robert wrote: "Alter2Ego wrote: "Robert: Oh, how you wish it were that simple...."My response: It IS that simple. I accept the entire Bible and ALL that it teaches. You REJECT ALL that you don't like.
That is why you ONLY accepted the verse stating that the Father is God... and REJECTED the verses saying Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit it God.
VERY SIMPLE!"
Robert:
No one who accepts the "entire Bible and ALL that it teaches," as you claim you do, would habitually ignore context (the surrounding words, verses, and chapters that enable the reader to get the correct understanding of cherry-picked verses).
Even after you are shown the context, you persist in your Trinitarian philosophy, despite the fact the context contradicts what you claim the cherry-picked verses are saying.
I directed you to John 20:1-9, which is the context to your cherry-picked verse from John 20:28 where Thomas said to the RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD Jesus: "my Lord and my God."
You could care less about John 20:1-9 where it clearly states that Jesus had been dead. Christendom's Trinity says the Son is co-eternal with the Father. The Bible says the Son died.
An eternal person cannot die.
That bit you stated above that: "I accept the entire Bible and ALL that it teaches" while you refuse to be corrected by Biblical context says it all: You are deceiving yourself.
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Below this line is EXACTLY what I believe. I do NOT have to ADD my opinions... I just QUOTE IT and BELIEVE IT.I guarantee that Alter2Ego CANNOT simply QUOTE the Bible and support his FALSE doctrines. ALL his HERESIES will MANDATE that he ADD his commentary.
So here is what I believe...
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Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:"
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Jude 1:1 - "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father ..."
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John 20:28 - "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God ."
____________________________________
Acts 5:3-4 - "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost ... (4)... thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God .
The trinity came later as an explanation for a lot of the things Jesus said or is. I think the big one was that he had the power to forgive sins, which no created man or angel can do, because only God was the offended party. You also get into issues in how Jesus could be a sacrifice for our sins, and how some verses seemed to show that He existed before he was born.It's not something that's stated wholesale in the Bible, but Jesus in it is not simply a prophet or patriarch. The trinity was what the orthodox church came to after thinking and looking at the verses and reconciling them. The Son is different in a way unique to everyone else in the Bible.
Deuteronomy 6:4 - "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our
God is one
Lord:"____________________________________
Jude 1:1 - "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father ..."
____________________________________
John 20:28 - "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God ."
____________________________________
Acts 5:3-4 - "But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost ... (4)... thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God .
____________________________________
Questions:
1) According to Deu 6:4, how many Gods are there?
2) According to Jude 1:1, Who is God?
3) According to John 20:28, Who is God?
4) According to Acts 5:3-4, Who is God?
re: post 13A Triune Goddess Among the Celts?
Some point to "triple goddesses" worshipped by the pagan Celts as forerunners of the Christian Trinity. Yet these were either triads of mother goddesses or a single goddess with three "aspects" or "modes of being". The Holy Trinity isn't one Divine Person with three "aspects" or "modes", for the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are personally distinct from one another. Thus the "triple goddess" is merely a threefold deity, not a true trinity in the Christian sense, thus could not be the origin of the Holy Trinity.
The problem is that when people go looking for pagan 'divine triads' they might well find them, but so would they find 'divine quartets', 'divine septets' or almost anything else! It depends what the researcher is looking for! We must realize that in India alone it is claimed that over 1,000,000 deities are worshipped (according to the region and the particular strain of religiosity one prefers)!! - in such a huge number we might find almost anything! However, if it could indeed be shown that there are many pagan divine triads (probably highly dubious), is it not possible that Satan himself could have fashioned this on his knowledge of God as the former Lucifer? It would "prove" nothing.
Hindu Trimurti = Trinity?
Other critics within the cults claim that the Hindu "trimurti" - Brahma, Vishnu and Siva - was another model for the Christian Trinity. Yet scholars tell us that this "trimurti" only appears in Hinduism during the 4th-7th centuries AD. By that time the Christian understanding of the Holy Trinity was becoming fairly well-established!
http://www.ukapologetics.net/1GODHEAD...
I say with Thomas to Jesus: My Lord and my GOD.
The denial of this central Christian doctrine does not exist in a vacuum. You can be sure the OP subscribes to many other heresies, it is only a matter of time before they surface. Denial of eternal hell, deity of Christ, the resurrection, propitiation, infallibility of scripture, depravity of man, God's perfection: some or all of these.
Ned wrote: "I say with Thomas to Jesus: My Lord and my GOD."AMEN and AMEN!
Robert wrote: "Alter2Ego wrote: "Christendom's Trinity says there are only 3 persons. How do you solve the problem of Jesus' spirit, as mentioned at Romans 8:9?..."My response: That is VERY EASY to explain why you cannot understand it...
1 Corinthians 2:14"
Robert:
If, as you claim, it is "very easy to explain why" there are two different spirits along with Jehovah and Jesus Christ, you are sure taking a long time explaining this violation of basic addition. Even the average 1st grade kid knows that 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 4.
1 Corinthians 2:14 is no explanation for why there are 4 persons instead of 3 persons within Christendom's trinity. Notice below the quotation of that particular verse.
"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." (1 Corinthians 2:14 -- New International Version)
Notice another quotation of Romans 8:9:
"You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." (Romans 8:9 -- English Standard Version)
Where, within 1 Corinthians 2:14, does it explain how Jehovah + Jehovah's holy spirit + Jesus Christ + the Jesus' spirit = 3 instead of 4? Do tell?
FYI: There can only be three (3) persons within ANY trinity. So again, how do you explain away this 4th person identified as Jesus' spirit, as spoken of at Romans 8:9?
2nd time asking.
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Robert wrote: "John 14:26 - "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, HE shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."God the Father and Jesus, God the Son, believe that the Holy Ghost is a PERSON (not an "it"). They call Him "HE" !"
Robert:
Quote for us one verse of scripture that uses the expression "God the Son."
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
D.M. wrote: "The trinity came later for a lot of the things Jesus said or is. I think the big one was that he had the power to forgive sins, which no created man or angel can do, because only ..."D.M.
You at least got that right--that "the trinity came later." How much later you might wonder?
ANSWER: More than 300 years after Jesus Christ returned to heaven, and more than 300 years after the last book of the Bible was written.
Simply put, Christendom's Trinity is entirely PAGAN in origin.
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Ned wrote: "I say with Thomas to Jesus: My Lord and my GOD."Ned:
Robert already tried that verse of scripture and was shown the context, as follows:
Your cherry-picked verse at John 20:28 indicates you are relying on a single verse of scripture where Thomas used the TITLES Lord and God with reference to the RESURRECTED Jesus Christ--while you make a point of ignoring the context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters).
Thomas obviously knew that Jesus Christ is not Almighty God based on the fact that Thomas saw Jesus Christ dead on the torture stake. In fact, the entire context to John 20:28 informs the reader that Thomas was simply acknowledging that Jesus Christ is in a godlike position over himself and other humans.
Remember, according to Christendom's Trinity, the Son (Jesus) is supposedly CO-ETERNAL with Jehovah the Father. The context at John 20:1-9 informs the reader that Jesus had only recently been resurrected from the DEAD .
An eternal person cannot die.
DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL": "Eternal means not having a beginning or an end."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/eternal
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18
Alter2Ego wrote: "Ned: Robert already tried that verse of scripture and was shown the context, as follows..."My response: LOL!!!! All you offer is your OPINION.
Which happens to DISAGREE with the Word of God... and legitimate Bible scholars. (which you are NOT!)
Alter2Ego wrote: "Simply put, Christendom's Trinity is entirely PAGAN in origin..."My response: NOPE!
Deu. 6:4 (ONE GOD)
Jude 1:1 (the Father IS that ONE GOD)
John 20:28 (Jesus IS that ONE GOD)
Acts 5:34 (the Holy spirit IS that ONE GOD)
There is NOTHING PAGAN in the Bible... what IS PAGAN is your OPINIONS.
The first mentions of creeds that include the trinity do date to ad 400 or so, yes, but I think scholarship has them in existence much earlier-the Apostles creed to ad 200. If you look at the history of the Christian church, after AD 100 there was a process of putting theology down in order to deal with plenty of heresies that sprung up during that time, Gnosticism being a big one. I don't think the later date was a sign of historical addition as opposed to the church slowly setting down the implications of what the church believed in written form.The problem you have tho alter is that the Bible as we have it was decided by the same church and the same councils that did the creeds which describe the trinity. If they were heretical enough to include it, they could have easily added false gospels or added prooftexts which more explicitly proved the Trinity; this is what many gnostic or "lost" gospels did for their own pet beliefs and philosophies, and this is why they aren't considered canon. So you kind of trust them on the one hand and damn them on the other in a weirdly compartmentalized way.
Alter2Ego wrote: "Robert wrote: "Alter2Ego wrote: "Robert: Oh, how you wish it were that simple...."My response: It IS that simple. I accept the entire Bible and ALL that it teaches. You REJECT ALL that you don't ..."
Goodness gracious I didn't know people outside of Mormonism even still debated the FACT of the Trinity? Please, it is obvious from Scriptural hints as well as logic that the Trinity exists. The Holy spirit sired Jesus Christ in Mary's womb (Matthew 1:18) but God is always calling Jesus Christ his son, even saying he himself sired him. So if the Holy Spirit and God The father sired Yaweh we consider them to be the same primordial being, they can't both be the father so they must be one. That leaves Jesus Christ, Jesus told the thief on the cross that today he would be with him in paradise. However in John 20:17 Christ tells them not to touch him for he has not yet ascended to his father in heaven. If Christ told the thief that he would see him in paradise but, then told his followers three days after he had risen not to touch him because he had not yet ascended into Heaven, this is a logical fallacy; UNLESS he was also God the Father and really would see him in heaven, otherwise the thief could not dwell with him in paradise. Because we know from Ephesians 4:8-9 that Christ spent those three days in Tophet ie. Hell, it clearly points to Christ and God the Father being the same being, otherwise Christ would have lied to the Thief on the cross. So, the Trinitarian Philosophy definitely has grounds in Scripture and Logic. Robert, or anyone else please tell me if you think I'm wrong I'd love to argue my case more in depth, it is so simple that I honestly hesitated even writing this, the Trinity is an elementary school concept in the Doctrines of Christianity. It is honestly offensive to me to deny this 2+2=4 Doctrine, while there are so many disputed issues that need addressing, if people can't read the Bible and deduce that there is one God then there must be a screw lose, and I don't really feel this harshly about many issues. The Early Church Fathers spoke out against this egregious heresy in the early times of the church, and we ought to as well.
Exactly.Who else gets sired by God and the Holy Spirit and receives an eternal Kingdom??? Duh!
John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ."