UK Amazon Kindle Forum discussion
General Chat - anything Goes
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Who else thinks Amazon are bullies?
Most companies are once they get grow beyond two employees.
Bullies or not, UK publishers weren't interested in my books, whereas Amazon gave me the chance to not only publish for free but also to reach a buying public I otherwise wouldn't have reached. As long as Amazon carry on allowing indies to publish as they do, I don't really care.
David wrote: "Bullies or not, UK publishers weren't interested in my books, whereas Amazon gave me the chance to not only publish for free but also to reach a buying public I otherwise wouldn't have reached. As ..."I'm with you on this one, fellow David.
I blogged about this issue just last week. Amazon's behaviour is ridiculous, no doubt. But because I experience Amazon in different ways it makes it more difficult to form a concrete opinion:http://scarlettfinn.wordpress.com/201...
I really don't see why authors bother with publishers anymore.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "I really don't see why authors bother with publishers anymore."They are the solution to a problem - getting books from writers to readers - that technology is removing and as usual in these situations they are looking to blame everyone but themselves for their impending redundancy.
Scarlett wrote: "I blogged about this issue just last week. Amazon's behaviour is ridiculous, no doubt. But because I experience Amazon in different ways it makes it more difficult to form a concrete opinion:http..."
Great blog post, Scarlett.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Scarlett wrote: "I blogged about this issue just last week. Amazon's behaviour is ridiculous, no doubt. But because I experience Amazon in different ways it makes it more difficult to form a concre..."Thank you, Patti.
Amazon have done wonders for writers, I completely agree. The industry as a whole needs to be more forward thinking. There should be more emphasis from various companies in aiding the writer with finding/connecting to the appropriately interested readers (marketing basically). Authors don't need publishers anymore, we need exposure. Someone to help with separating the wheat from the chaff. Whoever picks up that thread and runs with it could make a mint for themselves. There's a gaping chasm that needs to be filled... if anyone is so inclined!
I'm with David H on this one. Besides, you shouldn't believe everything you read in the papers ;)
I think that's what publishers should do Scarlett, fill that gap.Remember Amazon doesn't like publishers. Talk to a publisher about how difficult it is for them to get a sub £1 book on Amazon. Amazon don't actually say you cannot do it, you've just got to use an obsolete system to do it and it can take Amazon a month or more to pick up the fact you've entered it on the system (Stuff like that)
Remember Amazon isn't a friend to writers, writers just provide stuff for Amazon to pile high and sell cheap or even give away so they can turn round to the customers and say 'Look what we've got, fill your boots.'
Yes folk, they're acting just like any other major retailer. Once a major retailer has cornered a market, they work on improving margins. Their margins.
Also remember that they're effectively a court of no appeal. Let's assume that there's a storm about racism in books (just like there was about erotica/porn whatever a few months back.)
A programmer straight out of night school sets up an algorithm which kicks your books out as racist because your name was entered wrong or something equally bizarre.
That's it. Now try to get Amazon to back down and reinstate your books. (Or even to have a human being read your email to them)
Too much power, of any sort, corrupts. Amazon is getting to the stage where it has too much commercial power
I've read about the issue, blogged about it, discussed it with peers, but we're at an impasse. How much power they wield cannot be influenced by us little folk. I don't see many indie authors agreeing to pull their work from Amazon as a form of protest, and I see fewer readers who would be willing to cut Amazon out of the loop. With the amount of power that Amazon hold it would take all of us jumping up in unity to create any kind of earthquake they might pay attention to. So we have to wait, and watch, while the big fish slug it out.
Tricky one depending on what you need from Amazon I suppose. As an author I love that they give me a platform to sell my books. I don't like that they remove me from the KDP Select options if I sell on other platforms. That said, and this links to what others have said about the way Amazon operates, just this week Barnes and Noble have decided to offload the Nook because it's just not generating sales. I can see why publishers don't want to let Amazon print On Demand copies of their books. I use Createspace to publish mine and they're not remotely as good as traditionally published books, despite what folk might tell you.
I agree their needs to be some quality control. I make no claim to be Charles Dickens but I try my best not to release rubbish and try to make sure the presentation is as professional as I can get it. But there's a lot of rushed, poorly presented guff available which adds weight to the argument that self-publishing is less worthy than the traditional route.
Jim, yes that is what publishers SHOULD do.But what are they doing?
Not marketing.
Not editing properly.
Not providing eye catching covers and blurbs.
And for none of that, you as the author get to share your profit? Or, even more shocking, you get the post sales?
As I said.
I don't understand why authors are bothering with publishers.
The EU Commission has been "looking at" Amazon for some time, according to reports, and there's a feeling that a point will come when they do unto Amazon what they did unto Microsoft.Before Amazon came along, publishers were the bullies, and authors had no choice but to accept the tiny royalties that they offered (assuming they got an offer), or they simply didn't get published. But now, along comes a bigger bully, and the older bully doesn't like the bigger bully, because, frankly, it's bigger, and better at it.
So where does that leave us authors? Well the bigger bully is offering better terms to authors. probably because it makes them an even bigger bully and pisses off the older bully. It's certainly not because they are nice guys or they like us. Maybe one day they will make friends or decide not to offer us such good deals, but I suspect that's not very likely.
So in the worms of the immoral metaphor, make hay while the sun shines, for tomorrow Winter is coming, maybe.
I think the biggest problem that faces us as SP authors is not Amazon or the publishers or their squabbles, it's simply visibility and the inability to get our books in front of enough potential readers.
The worms of the immoral metaphor.Tim, my darling.
If I could copy write on your behalf, I would. As I can't, I shall happily vouch.
And perhaps buy worming tablets.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "Jim, yes that is what publishers SHOULD do.But what are they doing?
Not marketing.
Not editing properly.
Not providing eye catching covers and blurbs.
And for none of that, you as the author get to share your profit? Or, even more shocking, you get the post sales?
As I said.
I don't understand why authors are bothering with publishers.
..."
It's a tough one Patti
Marketing? Frankly nobody knows what works any more, and certainly nobody knows what to do which gives a reasonable return on investment. Think of the discussions we've had on this group, should I advertise with x or y.
Publishers are having those discussions, have been having them since before the Second World War, PG Wodehouse commented that 'Word of Mouth' was their preferred option. Free and worked best. (Think about it, that's how Goodreads works)
Not editing properly. True. Given the return on books, remember the numbers I crunched in my blog? The only people who can afford to edit properly at Indies who get it done, some 'paid' and some 'free'
And the Big Publishers can afford to pay for editing on the books they know will sell. So Stephen King should be properly edited and proofread at least :-)
Covers and Blurbs.
I don't know what they don't. It shouldn't be beyond them. It might be that they leave the blurb to the writer, I don't know.
Because a publisher gives you credibility. With a publisher you can talk to local radio, local newspapers, you're recognised by people as a 'real' author. I've seen the difference. Being an 'indie author' is nothing, you're just some person who's poured text into kindle and pressed the publish button. Newspapers and radio stations aren't going to spend time reading your indie book unless they're already mates of yours or you've got a really good edge. But if you've got a publisher, someone else has been assumed to have checked that at least you've produced a proper book.
Erm.I've just lost a great long reply.
Not well pleased.
Jim wrote: "Because a publisher gives you credibility. With a publisher you can talk to local radio, local newspapers, you're recognised by people as a 'real' author. I've seen the difference. Being an 'indie author' is nothing, you're just some person who's poured text into kindle and pressed the publish button. Newspapers and radio stations aren't going to spend time reading your indie book unless they're already mates of yours or you've got a really good edge. But if you've got a publisher, someone else has been assumed to have checked that at least you've produced a proper book. "This. I can't get into the newspapers or into the local bookstores etc, because I don't have a "real publisher." Heck, even the man in the street is saying "but you're only self published, it's not like you're a 'real' author."
And that's the ignorance!The 'published' authors these days are more dismal than the self published!
The wheat from the chaff is showing now. The small press publishers are trying for volume. Not working.
The trade press is overpriced. And not worth reading.
The smart readers are finding the books.
David wrote: "Bullies or not, UK publishers weren't interested in my books, whereas Amazon gave me the chance to not only publish for free but also to reach a buying public I otherwise wouldn't have reached. As ..."Fully agree with this 100%
So David agrees with David. ;)
Patti (baconater) wrote: "So David agrees with David. ;)"It's the natural order of all things David.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "So David agrees with David. ;)"What did you expect? It's just the nature of the Davidity.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "The wheat from the chaff is showing now. The small press publishers are trying for volume. Not working.The trade press is overpriced. And not worth reading.
The smart readers are finding the books. ..."
Not enough of them.
How many people spend their nights combing Amazon for new books. They look for signposts in to books they might like. The local paper,the local radio, are signposts that are seen or heard by many people.
The 'volume' route is probably because nobody knows what is going to take off. It's the shotgun school of marketing, because I don't think anybody knows what works.
Visibility is now the key. That's why some people will go to great unethical lengths to get noticed. If the publishers can offer authors one thing then it's the marketing (which everyone seems to suggest is the thing that they won't do). That's why forums like this are critical to indies.
But the forums are often just authors preaching to other authors, which gets us nowhere. Same thing for Twitter and FB - it's always "JohnSmithAuthor is following you" and two days later when you didn't follow them back, they've unfollower you.Reaching people who are genuinely interested is still the biggest problem.
Interestingly I just went through my twitter feed and unfollowed over a hundred people, basically they're people I didn't 'know' from forums or real life. Perhaps twenty people unfollowed me and I suppose the rest just haven't noticed :-)
We're all preaching to the choir, which is exactly the problem. But there are other authors out there who will review (sometimes without reading) negatively because they think that will somehow increase their own standing. It's dog eat dog, as it were. But still none of us know, how do we reach the reader?
All major businesses act in their own best interests and this is often seen as bullying by their suppliers and competitors. I suspect that the major problem facing all authors and publishers is that the number of readers isn't increasing significantly, but the number of books (mainly ebooks) being published has soared. Every day huge numbers of books are published by optimistic authors resulting in a vast increase in those scrabbling for a share in a pie that isn't getting any bigger. Every possible means of promotion is being over-exploited and becoming ineffective.
It's the sign of the times. I wouldn't say Amazon are bullies, without them being the major players in the market over the last few years I know most of my Indie friends wouldn't be writing today. They would have thrown the towel in ages ago. :-)
I suppose that if you think that having us writing (as opposed to dealing crack, working as contract killers or plotting jihad) is a good thing then that is a good thing.Whether, when looked at dispassionately, 'literature' has gained is another matter.
There's an awful lot more books about, they're an awful lot cheaper, but whether anybody outside a small group who follow indie writers has even noticed this I wouldn't like to say
For a different (and hilarious) take on this: Publishing vs Amazon - A Play in Five Actshttp://insatiablebooksluts.com/2014/0...
David wrote: "David wrote: "Bullies or not, UK publishers weren't interested in my books, whereas Amazon gave me the chance to not only publish for free but also to reach a buying public I otherwise wouldn't hav..."David has a great point; after traditional paper publishers have been bullying authors for years and supplying "editors" who seem to have an agenda about how we should think, Amazon has empowered the people to vote with their wallets on what they like, while getting entertainment cheaper. Yes, there is some chaos, but Amazon has no corner on the market with that. As far as greed is concerned, this is the pot calling the kettle . . .
Part of me agrees that Amazon is spiralling out of control, but the other part of me has zero sympathy for publishers. When you think about it, the publishers got a get out of jail free card. They saw what happened to the music industry, and the dinosaurs who thought that digital downloads would never change those little things such as copyright and mass piracy.
When digital books/downloads first appeared on the scene, alarm bells should have started ringing in the publishing world. Instead, they've turned up halfway through the film and they're wondering what's going on. Smaller, more nimble innovators have pulled the rug from underneath them.
Lynda wrote: "For a different (and hilarious) take on this: Publishing vs Amazon - A Play in Five Actshttp://insatiablebooksluts.com/2014/0..."
Great stuff - I was going to put that link up, but you beat me to it.
same topic, slightly different tack... now Amazoo are demanding you give them your passport or driving licence before you can sell on their website. Unlike eBay, who are happy to accept you as a seller whoever you are, with similar buyer provisos, and ultimately similar fees. Interesting why Amazon should suddenly decide to cut themselves out of a presumably lucrative market. Complacency?I did query their new regulations and their keenness to comply with EU directives but surprisingly tax wasn't mentioned at all
Amazingly, I am obviously the only person in the universe who objects to giving Amazon a copy of my passport or driving licence before I am allowed to sell on their website.They have just emailed me their 'final warning'.
So, Ebay it is then
I buy a load of stuff from Amazon usually , out of laziness. Their loss.
I've never sold anything on the net, so don't really have an opinion.Do you mean you need to give that info to sell your books, Karen?
Cuz no one else has mentioned having to do that. I do hope you're not getting phishing emails.
You may have the same problem with Ebay if you need to open a new PayPal account to process payments. You're not the only person in the universe to object, Karen; there are threads on Amazon dealing with it. It's the result of new anti-money-laundering European legislation.
Patti (baconater) wrote: "I've never sold anything on the net, so don't really have an opinion.Do you mean you need to give that info to sell your books, Karen?
Cuz no one else has mentioned having to do that. I do hope ..."
It's only if I sell my own stuff, Patti - eg books I've had printed. The kindle ones and Createspace paperbacks are ok as Amazon produce them themselves.
B J wrote: "You may have the same problem with Ebay if you need to open a new PayPal account to process payments. You're not the only person in the universe to object, Karen; there are threads on Amazon dealin..."Thanks BJ - I don't bother with the Amazon threads these days so hadn't seen any fuss about it. Luckily I've been an ebayer and have had a paypal account for years. Their charges are a tad high, but Amazon's aren't that great either.
Have to agree about the charges. There doesn't seem to be a cost effective way of handling small payments.
BBC news report on latest book negotiations