Outlander Series discussion
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Least Favorite Character?
The second I heard Geillis went into that cave, I knew that skeleton from the beginning of the book was her.(Well actually, I thought it was either her or Claire, but hoped desperately that it was not Claire)
Latinlandish wrote: "WOW! You girls can be detectives. That's amazing. I really didn't see that coming.And thanks everybody for posting the SPOILER ALERTS!!!
I am kind of waiting to go to ABOAS, and by now I already..."
I'm glad to read the spoilers because I would have heart attack while reading about Claire and LJ having s.e.x. I almost died reading Voyager and part when Claire finds out that Jamie married Laoghaire. Spoilers at least take some edge of the shock....
Oh man, if I had known about the end of Echo when I read it, I would not have enjoyed any of that novel because I’d be dreading that one scene! When I read series, I am very very strict about avoiding forums and reading the backs of books, I hate big spoilers like that! (I was very fortunate to not get spoiled when Snape killed Dumbledore)
Jamie said: I brought her violets. I was moved to tears!Roger asked her if there was anything inscribed inside it. of course I cried again...
we know we will be understood ;0)
sniff, sniff "Da mi basia mille", - Give me a thousand kisses!
Gets me every time!!
(I was very fortunate to not get spoiled when Snape killed DumbledoreSnape killed Dumbledore???????????? JK
HAHAHAHA!I did manage to not get any spoilers at all for HP. When the last book came out I started that series over from the beginning and read them all. I wanted to get the full effect of the last book, and I wanted to drag it out since there'd be no mre. I was sure that I would hear how it ended somewhere but I didn't come across one spoiler.
(ECHO SPOILER)
I wasn't so lucky with Echo. I knew about LJG and Claire ahead of time, I new about Ian Sr ahead of time, and I knew that Ian and William would have a triangle with a fiesty Quaker.
I don't get too upset though, I'm a chronic peeker. I love spoilers and Excerpts.
I do love the excerpts DG has given us for the beginning of her next book. But if she (or anyone really) suddenly blurts out a major character death, a major relationship upheaval, or something life-altering in the series.... I'll cry because it would stress me to no end through the *entire* book. **ECHO SPOILER**
(CONTINUATION OF KATE'S SPOILER)It was really hard. I kept waitign for that the whole time. I had no idea how it would happen, just that it would.
Kate wrote: "Both of you are right, it was a dream AND it was real. Claire was just recollecting it after the fact! :)"Wendy wrote: "That was real, yes. I didn't mean that the whole thing was a dream; I meant that after Claire kills Geillis she flashes back to that moment with Joe. That during the flashback she realizes that t..."
Wendy and Kate, could you please tell me a little bit more about the dream? I re-read the chapter in Voyager and did not find anything about a dream. Will it be in of the later books, maybe?
I'm not very good at remembering what scenes were in which books. I've read all of them so many times and my brain kinda just runs them together.It may be in Drums of Autumn though...
I remember that in the dream she hears Joe's voice singing the bone song, (and the neck bone connected to the head bone...), and she sees that he's holding the skull and she realizes that it was Geillis and that she killed her.
I think that this was how it went. I'm at work so I can't look through the books and see if I can find it.
Yeah, she remembers Joe when she is hanging out with the slaves at Geillis’, around when Ishmael does the weird ritual around the fireplace. It’s somewhere around there, and where Claire runs into the gator. At least, I think! Or maybe it’s when they go to Abandawe (I think that’s the name of the cave).I am rereading Voyager very slowly, but when I get to that part I’ll bookmark it and let you know, Wendy.
I thought it was after Geillis died in the cave... anyway, definitely let me know because I can't remember.
It is in the beginning of Voyager. They are in the hospital and this researcher has a skull from a cave in a Caribbean island. Claire doesn't know for sure, she just has this amazing sad feeling. Joe mentions that Claire uses her feelings very well when diagnosing patients. She just has a feeling that she was killed.I am really amazed how you all could get to the conclusion that the skull belongs to Geillis. Yeah, I can see how it could be, but also it might not.
Not the actual time that Claire was holding the skull. We're talking about MUCH later when Claire thinks back/dreams about that conversation with Joe and connects that to killing Geillis in the cave.
How could it not be her? They found the skull in the same cave Geilie died in, it belonged to a female from that time and had the same head wound.
I "think" that this is at the end of Voyager,when Jamie went into Geillis' farm to get Ian. CLaire got tire of waiting (as always) and then almost got caught by a crocodile, and met a group of fugitive slaves who brought her along to this strange celebration. One of the guys was named Ishmael and his voice sounded just like Joe Abernathy. And there is the fact that a farm in the Island was called Abernathy. And she started to have all kinds of visions.
The skull could well be Geillis', but I don't understand how Claire could get to that conclusion, if at that point in the book, she was still waiting for Jamie and didn't know that Geillis had left the farm carrying Ian along with her. She didn't even know that they would have to ride a boat (loaned by LJG) to go to the cave in another island and rescue Ian,and in the process kill Geillis.
Claire knew that it was a woman’s skull in that cave, at the time, she did not know if it was HER skull, Bree’s, Marsali’s, Geilie’s or some other random woman’s.You don’t need to hear her think, or say, later in the book, that it was Geilie’s, it was a given at that point as the woman finally met her end in the cave.
Ladies, I think I might have found the scene many of you are referring to: SPOILER
It is at the end of Voyager, chapter 63, Out of the Depth: they are on this small boat borrowed from LJG, fleeing the Man of Arms and the English navy, at that point this ship had sunk in the storm yet. They are amidst another thunderstorm, their boat is hit by lightening and Claire sees Innes "turned from the light, his tall, thin figure so sharply cut against the flash that he looked momentarily like a skeleton, black bones against the sky". This reminded her of Joe singing "Oh, de headbone...", the limbs of the Bruja's men at the beach and finally "A skull in my hands, with empty eyes that had once been the green of the hurricane sky." (page 1049)
That's it, no further references, for us to draw conclusions.
Geilie had green eyes, which is why Roger has green eyes :)
All I have to say you guys are great detectives. According to the latest studies you won't suffer of Alzheimer. You have great minds!
Kate wrote: "Geilie had green eyes, which is why Roger has green eyes :)"..and so as William Bucchleigh MacKenzie.
YES! It was the reference to Green eyes that did it. Thats how I knew she had put it together with GeillisThank you!
Latinlandish wrote: "All I have to say you guys are great detectives. According to the latest studies you won't suffer of Alzheimer. You have great minds!"For me it’s really just being used to the fact that everything that happens has some cause or effect. Nothing is superfluous to an author or screen writer.
Wendy wrote: "YES! It was the reference to Green eyes that did it. Thats how I knew she had put it together with GeillisThank you!"
They make as many references to Roger/Geillis/Buccleighs green eyes as they do to Jamie's Fraser cat eyes. That to me was as much as sealing the deal that the skeleton was Geillis.
Well, when I read the book I definetely came to the conclusion that it was Geillis in the cave, and so did my 3 friends reading the books too sooo Let's just asume it is her :) besides de died the same way...
I agree...I have ALOT of problems with the "Jamie jealous of Leghair and her lover" bit...and it make me so mad that Claire lets him get away with so much. I don't understand that at all and the other superduper "pull my hair out" item is the brothel....I cannot believe that she didn't kick his a$$ for letting those whores in the brothel scratch and bite him anywhere near his privates and I think any man 17th Century or not has control over who gives him a hickey. My husband would be minus some important anatomy plus he'd be minus me. I would not put up with that. Clair said she was trying to be....not the correct words she used.... I judged her to mean ...trying to be progressive in her thinking and not be a shrew wife...but good grief...who would appologise to a husband who came home with those marks so near his privates and who even admits he wanted to have sex with those women???And the fool told him she was sorry....if I didn't emasculate him on the spot...he'd have been a long time without his marital rights from me...and he wouldn't get another opportunity to get anywhere near a brothel. I'd have told him whats good for the goose is good for the gander and he could sit home and worry about me while I let strange men paw my privates and send me home with marks all over me....lets remember Claire is a 20th century woman and Jamie knows it and even though she was an adult in the 1940s I don't think my mom would have put up with it either. She'd have had her revenge and I know Jamie would not like it because he is jealous of any man even looking at her. Oooh, gets my blood pressure up just thinking about it. I have been camping in the serene outdoors by the lake (in a fully modern all amenties camper) for the last month and this is the first day I've been mad. LOL....back to camping!
I think Claire is just not like that, Sharonh, she has a different sort of attitude in that regard. Remember how she didn’t seem to care the next day, after Dougal kissed her and shoved his erection into her side? If I had been Claire, I would have been so angry over that situation, and informed Jamie as soon as I knew he was more to me than just a friend!I am glad Jamie admitted to her though, that he wanted to sleep with those women. If a man ever tells you he never has any desire to sleep with anyone else, I am sorry, but I think he’s just telling you what you want to hear. The important thing is that he didn’t do it.
I think her reaction to the situation also has a lot to do with the fact that she left her husband in another century. The woman herself probably still feels a little torn between two men.
I mean... I do agree, in a sense, her attitude is a little too lax She gets walked all over at times, like with Frank being unfaithful after she came back to his time. She doesn’t have some level of assertiveness. Like when she doesn’t tell Wylie to lay off.
She was also not angry about Jamie being hit on by the natives, when he was indian agent, and found the entire situation hilarious. PErsonally, I would have been pretty unhappy! But again, it’s Claire we’re talking about :)
Gah, I can’t seem to brain words today, I better stop here. O.o
The good thing about fiction is that you can make the most outrageous characters seem normal! All this talk about the brothel and indian agent was kind of a "SPOILER" for me (I am choosing to wait after finishing Fiery Cross)
But, anyway, I agree that in terms of real life is hard to understand how Claire would accept Jamie rolling around w/ prostitutes, but then I have to remember that this is just a book!
I know, it is hard to believe , but they are not real.
Yesterday for instance I really needed a Jamie to deal w/ my awful 15 year old boy.
I couldn't help but SCREAM ALOUD:
"Where is Jamie when I need him?" LOL
Moni wrote: "In Echo, however there is a poignant statement that Jamie tells Ian, about how when you come home, they have to take you in? And Jamie states that Claire keeps taking him in, she must be home. I love that line...where is it in Echo??
I do not know about Echo, read this one once just - the whole lot from beginning to end - and then parts of it. At present I'm listening to the audio book and it did not appear in the first two parts.
But this is something that keeps coming back. If I'm right, the first time this quotation showed up in Voyager, when Claire and Jamie bring back Young Ian from Edinburgh to Lallybroch.
I haven't read Echo and I remember reading this quotation too. So it must have been in Voyager. I remember the situation, when Young Ian's parents were so mad at him for staying in Edinburgh with his uncle, in a brothel. He was so scared, but he knew he had to go home.
I think that there are real women out there who, for one reason or another, are not jealous or possessive and would understand Jamie's explanation of everything that happened. Personally I have complete faith in my husband. He may go out with his friends, go to the strip club and get a lap dance and he comes home and I just ask him if he had fun. It's just the type of wife I am, it doesn't mean that I am a push over in any way. I guess I would understand all this frustration at Claire if Jamie was a cheater or if he was like other guys of that time and did use prostitutes or had a mistress. The bottom line is that Jamie is trustworthy and he's madly in love with his wife. He's never ever given Claire a reason to think that anything he's said wasn't the truth or that she couldn't trust him.
I think that it is awesome that Jamie and Claire can be so honest with each other about things that go on in their lives because they know that no matter what their partner will back them up and that it won't be a huge battle. I see it as extremely healthy. These things happened to Jamie, it would have been awful if he lied to Claire to prevent her from flipping out. That to me is wrong.
Moni wrote: "hey, i just realized that Claire and Jamie were married in the church, Longhaire and Jamie wasn't?? hmmm..."I think they were married in church too. And the possible reason that the Catholic Church would accept a second marriage is that after so many years of disappearance, Claire was obviously taken for dead. After Culloden war the population of the country side of Scotland was very decreased. People died and the family never buried their loved ones, lost in the battle field. It was very logical to think that Claire was dead, and that Jamie could marry again.
I was just thinking about how IF Jamie had been an awful man and gotten into the habit of lying to his wife about a mistress or an affair. That scene where Bree goes back in time and finally finds Jamie, and he thinks she is propositioning him, that could have been a VERY awkward moment.
Latinlandish wrote: "Moni wrote: "hey, i just realized that Claire and Jamie were married in the church, Longhaire and Jamie wasn't?? hmmm..."I think they were married in church too. And the possible reason that the C..."
Also, Claire got married to Jamie in the same church she married Frank. That was a little awkward. *does the awkward turtle*
Kate wrote:I was just thinking about how IF Jamie had been an awful man and gotten into the habit of lying to his wife about a mistress or an affair. That scene where Bree goes back in time and finally finds Jamie, and he thinks she is propositioning him, that could have been a VERY awkward moment.Actually when I was reading ithis scene, it sounded kind of odd. because suddenly I could see him through totally different eyes. When I think of Jamie , he is always linked to Claire. And in that scene there he was, a good looking man with no woman and available. Jamie actually thought Bree wanted to go out w/ him. DG would have to be very mean to make him do that! That would destroy all our good feelings for the man. LOL
Also remember that scene in Voyager, when finally Claire and Jamie meet after almost being drowned in the ocean. And Jamie had been "rescued" by these women( I don't remember clearly their "profession" :) and was living in a bar or something like it. Remember when Claire smelled chaep perfume on him and he had a very lame excuse that he couldn't say no when some bonnie lassies wanted to sit on his lap! He is no saint!
We wouldnt' love him if he was! hahaha
You are so right! He is the right mixture of bad and good. :)
Well I never ever think of him as really bad...just so exasperatingly truthful. LOL. There was such a double standard then and maybe that it what bothers me so much. I had completely forgotten about the scene where the "lassies" wanted to sit in his lap ...and Claire didn't mind that either! Arrrrgh! I guess I am just so possessive of him. LOL.
I had also forgotten about the Indian women wanting to warm his bed and they even said they'd like a child by him. I know that gave his ego a boost. LOL. And again Claire thought that was hilarious but then when she heard Malva say he'd gotten her pregnant...Claire ran...whats up with that???? Oh yes, I do have to remind myself they are fictional characters!
How about the guy who lured her into the curtained off rest area where she took her shoes off and he was trying to nibble her toes? Can't remember his name.
Yeah, Claire is a very attractive woman, but a woman in her mid fifties doesn't have the same sex appeal of a man in his late 40's or early 50's. I am 50, and have kept up, but it is just a fact of life that a woman in her 20's is going to have more"followers" than a 50 year old. Now, Jamie and Claire have a relationship that goes beyond physical attraction, and they have sex knowledge of each other's bodies that is much better than anything. But it must be hard for her to have such a hunk of a husband. I see her as somebody like Meryl Streep, she can be very attractive in her own way, because of her sense of humor, her open mindness. Men sense that they would have much better sex with creative and imaginative Claire than with an ordinary 20 year old.Anyways sex is much more a product of our minds than our skin. And Claire has an incredible mind!
Latinlandish wrote: "Yeah, Claire is a very attractive woman, but a woman in her mid fifties doesn't have the same sex appeal of a man in his late 40's or early 50's. I am 50, and have kept up, but it is just a fact of..."Wow, it's so interesting to see how we differ as we read them. I don't see Claire like that at all. I see Claire as very beautiful. Even Roger says that. He talks about her skin and her eyes. I read Claire like she was more classically beautiful and that Brianna was beautiful in more of an interesting way.
Not to mention that the story repeatedly says that for a woman in her 50's in the 18th century she looked like other women in their 20's or 30's. She kept her figure, her teeth, and her skin was still healthy.
I'm not disagreeing with your opinion, just chuckling about how we all read the same thing and walk away with such different images. It's pretty interesting.
Who knows, maybe time travel is great for your skin!
She did have the hot flashes of menopause, so even though she is good looking she is not a young woman. And she looks much younger than an 1800's 50 year old, but still she doesn't look like a teen. I myself think that Meryl Streep is very beautiful, and I bet she attracts lots of men. I am 50,I know I don't look like I did 20 years ago, with all the help of moisturizers of 21st century. As I said before, sex is mainly in our minds, Jamie loves Claire for what she is, inside and out.If you remember Claire's advice to Bree in her farewell letter: "Don't gain weight and keep your back straight", it is good advice that I have followed myself, I know my husband finds me attractive, even after 20 years and 3 kids, we still have a lot of fun,if you know what I mean. If my husband can think like that, I know Jamie is able of much more!! LOL
Well, people back then aged much more than they do now - poor diet, non-existent dental hygiene, etc. It's mentioned several times that Claire is careful NOT to mention her age, as others might take it as a sign of witchcraft to look so young. There is also a point in (Drums of Autumn?), where Jamie meets 2 Native American brothers and helps them to ransom the wife of one of them from another Mohawk village. He notes that while the girl is not at all physically attractive (skinny, bad teeth), he finds himself wondering what she's like in bed. Shocked with himself, he then notes that there are just some women who have an allure that transcends mere looks, and that his own wife has it in spades.
Totally agree with you. The main thing that made Claire look good was probably having her teeth. But I still think that people are showing a prejudice against age. Yes, she did look good, and yes people aged more rapidly in the 18th century. But still, she is a good looking healthy 50 year old woman. We cannot assume that all 18th century girls looked bad and ugly. What was more attractive in Claire was her attitude, her intelligence, her wicked sense of humor.Concerning Jamie's reaction to the indian, I think is perfectly natural to wonder about how somebody is in bed. I would be lying if I didn't confess to do the same.
Jamie is such a natural!
I agree about the ageism. Our society tells us that once a woman is over 30, she's past it, whereas men just get better and better with age. I just turned 44 myself, and I'd like to think that I'm still desirable! (My husband seems to think so.)
Well, it’s better than what it was in the 1700's, where if you were over 24 and not married, you were considered an unmarriable spinster!
I came to the same conclusion, but for a second, before Claire killed Geillis, I thought it was Claire. After reading the whole thing I have not doubts that the body is Geillis's .