Outlander Series discussion
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Least Favorite Character?
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Gwennie, biblioholic
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Oct 07, 2010 01:32PM
I agree with that, and it was also a symbol of what she'd had with Frank. She wasn't unhappy when she met Jamie, she loved her husband. The truth is she loved both of them, she just loved Jamie more.
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Latinlandish wrote: "Well, now to my next doubt.(you are the best Oulandish consultants. I love it) I really don't understand ... golden ring given to her by Frank....."
I'm currently re-reading the Outlandish Companion and also this book gives you much more the 2nd time! DG answers people having the same problem as you do in part nine, FAQs, in a quite comprehensive way (more than 1 page). If you own this book, please look at pages 374/375. It is really too much to copy it here and just taking some sentences would not do DG credit. I'll try it nonetheless: She starts: "I'm tempted to say that this is one of those things that you either see or you don't see." Then there is a lot about love and obligation, ending: "For her to refuse Frank's ring, and essentially reject all he was, to deny the value of thirty years of a complex but valuable relationship - well, that would be both dishonest and petty. And neither Claire nor Jamie is small in mind or heart." We do agree with the last sentence, don't we?
I can only recommend to get the Companion, it is a wonderful reference with many nice reproductions of photographs and drawings of plants, animals, jewelry.
She spells it out perfectly! Very well said! It makes me want to go back and reread my companion.And the same sentence could be used to describe why Jamie wanted to continue to take care of Loaghaire.
Wendy wrote: "And the same sentence could be used to describe why Jamie wanted to continue to take care of L..."
Exactly Wendy, I fully agree with you. I think we tend to forget that marriage some time ago used to be somehow different than it is today. People married out of necessity, if they eventually respected or even fell in love the better. In Voyager, chapter 42 "Man in the Moon", Jamie cannot understand how Claire could have left her/their daughter with "no husband to protect her, no men of her family to see her safely wed" (page 665). Claire does her best to explain the difference between marriages in the 18th and 20th centuries. If you remember how Jamie reacted when Bree was pregnant and Roger gone, I don't think she succeeded very well. By the way, it really must be difficult for a 18th century man to grasp that women could live independantly, look after themselves, earn their own living,....
I have to say, you have given a wonderful argument. You said easily what I was trying to explain.
Oh wow, thank you for that Lotte! I really do need to read that FAQ! :)
Lotte! Thanks. I have to read that portion to truly understand it. Claire does really have bigger mind and heart than me that's for sure. Frank wasn't really my fav but I don't hate him. She held on to his ring knowing he had been cheating on her the whole time up until the point of his death. Okay, he loved Bree and had been a good dad to her but the relationship wasn't one-sided. Frank also benefit from being her dad since he was sterile. Complex, yes. Valuable, not so much. (but that's just me!)
Wendy wrote: "I agree with that, and it was also a symbol of what she'd had with Frank. She wasn't unhappy when she met Jamie, she loved her husband. The truth is she loved both of them, she just loved Jamie m..."Thank you for the referral to the exact page. I do have the Companion and will look for those pages.
Moni -- Did you see the link that I posted in the Book Fest? DG said the book has 2 different points of view -- both from LJG and Jamie. I'm sure Claire will make apprearance in Jamie's memories/dreams.
I can't WAIT to read that!
Latinlandish wrote: "I love the way the conversation starts on one subject and goes off on a tangent! Going back to the least favorite character, there is one that I can't understand very well and is Bree. The way she ..."I hate to admit it as well...She is not one of my favs. She is bitchy and moody! But, I do love me some Roger!
He went to see her to see if she was seeing someone, so he could get out of his payment contract with her.And he knows why she tried to kill Claire, she was in love with Jamie and insanely jealous!
Yeah but... Claire =\= Jamie. Jamie is a big macho man who doesn't need to be afraid of Laoghaire, it's also the coin/profit that she is taking from him due to a contract with him. (yeah, yeah, Laoghaire *might* shoot him again, but you need to think of Jamie and his own opinion of his own security)If it was the other way around, I'm sure Jamie would be going to visit Tom Christie, he probably would not allow Claire to go for her own safety. Claire doesn't really need to worry for Laoghaire's ability to overpower Jamie (which is what I am sure Jamie would be concerned about 100%)
And I do not think either way that it would shake up their faith in each other.
I think you're putting your values/limitations in for Jamie and Claire's, and you need to think of the situation from their point of view. After a 20 year separation, where you find out the other person was in love with and pining after you, as well as you for them, for that entire period of time, that they also proved and validated their feelings for you over 23 years... I'm not sure you'd be as a) needy or jealous, b) worried about your partner's insecurities or c) afraid that they will leave you for an old flame that never panned out in the first place.
Now that you have a, b & c covered, you're also paying your ex-wife 200 pounds a year (or whatever it was), which is probably what your entire yearly income before taxes is as a farmer, but you don't need to pay said person if they remarry (not to mention that your wife makes almost no cash money from her medical practice, and you're basically the bread winner in the family). You hear that said ex-wife is having a sexual relationship with someone, which is a lawyer finds out, could equate to marriage, and get you out of that contract. Would you go over there to see for yourself? Or would you sit on your ass, provided you have the stubborn Fraser streak and self-pride and cockiness that Jamie has, or would you let someone else go over there and do it for you?
I don't think so.
HaHa! Dirk in his belly!! Ahh Moni, you make me laugh! I think you and I are stuck! We just see it in a different way!! And I don't understand why some keep defending Jamie's actions here!!LOL!I get what Kate is saying...but...yada yada yada!
Moni wrote: "Ladyhawk wrote: "HaHa! Dirk in his belly!! Ahh Moni, you make me laugh! I think you and I are stuck! We just see it in a different way!! And I don't understand why some keep defending Jamie's actio..."God I hope not! I am sick of her and her gimp husband...But I must say, that it warmed my heart to have her go to Claire to help save Henri- Christian. Is that not a slap in the face. Claire won, and now she has to ask for help! That in itself is payback!
Jenny told him in the letter because it meant that he could stop paying her the money. Also because she thought he would want to know. Regardless of what we think she was his wife (thinking Claire wouldn't come back and they took vows, maybe not blood but they were vows none the less). Plus, I guess the the most important thing is that we don't have to understand. We're not Claire and she did understand. I think the reason she understood was because of her life with Frank. They didn't have much of a real marriage, but it still upset her to no end when he had an affair even though she knew her heart would belong to Jamie. Emotions don't have to make sense, that's why they're emotions. I agree Moni, it wasn't about the money. He wanted to see Loaghaire because the thought that she had moved on bothered him. He didn't want her, he wanted Claire, but it was a blow to his pride and manhood that she could have taken up with someone else. This is normal! I don't want to be with any of my ex's but something will still tick inside me to hear that they've gotten married.
Emotions transcend reason. I'm just glad that Claire and Jamie respect and trust each other. I think that was the real point of the Loaghaire thing, to show that Claire trusts Jamie.
If he had found out before he married her, sure. He probaby would have had nothing to do with her. The problem was he found out after he had gotten to really know her and spent time in his life with her intimately. That means that the playing field is different.
Moni, I love ya, but I think you would frustrate DG herself! ^_^;;
Whatever, lmao! She better end it on a good note!I loved the idea that someone in some thread had that Claire would wake up in 1945 with Frank and realize the whole thing was a dream. It's cool in theory but if it ends like that I'm going to sob my eyes out. How absolutely desolate! I would be horrified.
Yeah, if it ended like that, I would be SO MAD. That’s like saying, I was too lazy to come up with a proper ending to make you all happy, so here!IF she did that, she better darn well stop admonishing Outlander fanfic, because that’s the only way we’d be able to get a happy ending.
Sometimes I like endings like that. I loved that Rosanne ended in a similar way. This is different though, I want to know that after all the hard times Claire and Jamie get a happy ending. Plus, Jamie is REAL! hahahaha
Moni wrote: "Wendy wrote: "Whatever, lmao! She better end it on a good note!I loved the idea that someone in some thread had that Claire would wake up in 1945 with Frank and realize the whole thing was a d..."
I would lose it! I swear I would go Kathy Bates from Misery on her if that is how she ends it!
Yeah, there is also that Jamie-ghost in Inverness that Frank runs into. Gabaldon said that she would explain that in like the last chapter of the last book. So there is hope still? *cries*
I don't ever want this series to end!! I dread it!
Kate wrote: "Yeah, there is also that Jamie-ghost in Inverness that Frank runs into. Gabaldon said that she would explain that in like the last chapter of the last book. So there is hope still? *cries*"
You know I was just listening to that part again, she has to go back to that!
She said that the ghost mystery is going to be solved in the very last book. I guess she doesn't even know what to do about it. When she wrote the first book, she really wasn't thinking about this huge saga, so now that the story is so complicated, she will really have to put the thinking cap to have something satisfactory and that does make sense. I would absolutely hate if everything was a dream at the end. Or maybe worse would be to have Claire be diagnosed as being schizophrenic, and have all this happen in her mind. That would be absolutely awful.
Sounds like how Hollywood made the Wizard of Oz all a dream, because the fantasy genre wasn’t really considered a valid film genre back in the day.Well, it still isn’t in a sense, but at least Lord of the Rings got the Oscar! :)
Man, if only Peter Jackson would take on Outlander!! That would be SICK.
Latinlandish wrote: "She said that the ghost mystery is going to be solved in the very last book. I guess she doesn't even know what to do about it. When she wrote the first book, she really wasn't thinking about this ..."I just don't know how she is gonna do it! I keep throwin ideas around in my head, but none of them work!
Mamamichelle wrote: "Latinlandish wrote: "She said that the ghost mystery is going to be solved in the very last book. I guess she doesn't even know what to do about it. When she wrote the first book, she really wasn't..."I don't think we should try to guess. I am sure she is feelin the pressure to end the series triumphantly, or she is going to have one hell of a backlash on the whole series.
no pressure DG;)
I don't think there is going to be this big surprise ending. I think it's just giong to be happy and they are going to be settled and together.I think that it will end with Jamie and Claire's death of old age, personally.
Latinlandish wrote: "She said that the ghost mystery is going to be solved in the very last book. I guess she doesn't even know what to do about it. When she wrote the first book, she really wasn't thinking about this ..."Quite a number of years have passed since she wrote the ghost scene and also since she decided to solve the mystery in the last book of the series, so meanwhile she could well have some idea about it. I absolutely agree with you that making it a dream would be horrible and absolutely disappointing! How long would one have to sleep to dream - let's guess - 9000 pages, and then to remember the beginning? Much worse is the idea of Claire being diagnosed schizophrenic, I very much hope DG will find a plausible ending.
Wendy wrote: "I don't think there is going to be this big surprise ending. I think it's just giong to be happy and they are going to be settled and together.I think that it will end with Jamie and Claire's ..."That, I could deal with...as long as they go together!
I was thinking that they were somehow related to the dead couple in the cave in France. Like somehow they both traveled even farther back in time, ended up stuck in that cave and died in each other’s arms.
Kate wrote: "I was thinking that they were somehow related to the dead couple in the cave in France. Like somehow they both traveled even farther back in time, ended up stuck in that cave and died in each other..."ohhhh, i forgot about that scene. kudos. it's a nice image though.
Thats exactly what I thought too!
Which book is the one that talks about the cave in France with the dead people?
Latinlandish wrote: "Which book is the one that talks about the cave in France with the dead people?"DIA. When they are in France. But how does Jamie get back in time?
Who knows, it's all just speculation. I don't think that makes for a very happy ending so I'm hoping that's not it.
Wendy wrote: "Jenny told him in the letter because it meant that he could stop paying her the money. Also because she thought he would want to know. Regardless of what we think she was his wife (thinking Clair..."I agree totally. If somebody had tried to kill my husband, and then had tried to shoot me, and on top of that never had pleasure with me in the bed, didn't like to have sex with me, and then would be humping wildly in the outdoors with somebody else, I would NEVER, Never be wanting to see this person again. Sorry, but DG was not consistent with Jamie's character when she created this situation.
They lived in very very different times back then.I disagree, I think whether we like it or not it was very consistant with Jamie's character. He wanted to find out what it was that this guy had that he didn't. He found out, now I'm thinking we won't hear so much from her when it comes to Jamie.
She won't disappear forever, Marsali is her daughter.
Latinlandish wrote: "DIA. When they are in France. But how does Jamie get back in time?"I grew up in SciFi-land. I was thinking that the black diamond, another precious gem or combination thereof, would allow Jamie (slash someone without the special gene) to use the standing stones. Or maybe Jem or Mandy has a refined ability to bring someone through.
Moni wrote: "Latinlandish wrote: "Wendy wrote: "Jenny told him in the letter because it meant that he could stop paying her the money. Also because she thought he would want to know. Regardless of what we thi..."Oh my goodness! That leads to one of my favorite lines in that book..."I should have let them burn ye 20 years ago" HILARIOUS!!!
Bree had no prior relationship with her, of course she would think of her only with hate. Jamie's relationship with Loaghaire was a bit more muddled then that.
I guess we can go on and on discussing if Jamie was right or not. We dearly love him, and it is hard to see this awful part of him. I don't see how on earth he could be "worried" about Laoghaire. Give me a break, times have changed, but since cave man history, if somebody tried to kill your wife and it is screwing around and lying to get your whatever is the currency of the times, this person does not deserve pity, or love or concern.I don't get it. Men like Jamie always had more honor than Jamie demonstrated at this time. UNLESS, (and I had forgotten about that), of course, Jamie is going through a manhood crisis like a lot a men go through in their fifties. The fear of getting old, of never having sex with different people. Fear of losing that last chance of screwing around with somebody younger. It makes sane men lose their minds, it make rational men do crazy things. In some countries this is called "the age of the wolf", they go hunting wildly in the wee hours of night...
Now, changing to somebody else than Laoghaire, there is one character that is pure evil, and this guy is Bonnet. How on earth after all Jamie did for him, risked his own life going through the red coats w/ Bonnet in the wagon to save Bonnet's life, he goes back and steals, destroys, hurts and betrays. He is a bad one.
Do you know, there is another thing that I don't get. It is this idea that Jamie and Laoghaire had a "relationship". Unless he is lying to Claire, and Marsali is lying too, he didn't have much of anything with Laoghaire, and they only lived together for 2 miserable years. There are not many details, but their sex life was pretty much non existent, and the life outside the bed was made of long painful silences. When Jamie was telling about his marriage with Laoghaire I almost thought that she had some kind of physical or psychological problem, that being the only reason that she would not enjoy having sex at all. But then she found her match, so the reason had to be that she plainly didn't like him. You know how it is, when you like somebody you think the guy is great, but when it is over you can gag on his smell from 3 feet distance!
I personally am glad that Diana Gabaldon writes her characters with so many facets. The ones you think are evil, Bonnet, Laoghaire, Jack Randall, also have decent humane qualities interwoven into who they are.Stephen Bonnet saved Bree from the burning building, even when she was being a little brat. He seemed to be a decent ship’s captain and somehow garnered respect from his crew.
Laoghaire made some mistakes when she was sixteen, but still managed to raise two good daughters. One daughter was Marsali, of course, who was a respected member of her community (and also eventually greatly loved by Claire, as if she was a daughter). And then the other daughter ended up becoming a nun. I think this just proves that Laoghaire was a loving, decent mother, and she did what she had to for her children. I also really appreciated the fact that she could get over herself long enough to beg assistance from Claire for Henri Christian.
DG has also shown dark sides to the characters we love to claim are infallible. Claire has done some underhanded things to get her way, as have Jamie, Bree and Roger.
We ALL have dark sides to us, and that’s why I appreciated that all her characters are not transparent. Her protagonists have dark sides and her antagonists have good qualities. I for one am sick of seeing tv shows, movies and reading books with these transparent, evil bad guys that seem to have no other motive but be evil and wreak havoc.
You are so right. That's why we love this series, and love Jamie. I just like a good discussion.
When my husband goes to Brazil to visit my family, sometimes everybody is screaming and he asks what's going on, and people are just talking about the weather!!
So I might get all excited about dear Jamie and Laoghaire, but I love, love, love him!
Kate wrote: "I personally am glad that Diana Gabaldon writes her characters with so many facets. The ones you think are evil, Bonnet, Laoghaire, Jack Randall, also have decent humane qualities interwoven into w..."Absolutely perfectly said. Thats what I love about these characters too. I actually really liked Bonnet. Sure he had some awful things about him, but he also had alot of awful things done to him.
These are the things that make the characters feel so real.
