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Why has feminism become synonymous with man hate?
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Omar
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Aug 06, 2017 03:16PM
Hello everyone! Feminism promotes equality, it does not impinge on it, yet so many have misunderstood the true meaning of this word. Emma raised this point so well in her He for She speech, but I wanted to get your thoughts on why you feel it has become related with such a diametrically opposed idea, that being man hate. If we remove the misconception we remove the misunderstanding.
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"When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."A useful but unattributable quote.
If this is true, it is a result not a synonym, and this result varies according to the social conditions and culture. In my humble opinion, it impossible to settle. Women have rights more than the man. They have rights over the man. best thing i will wish in this life
My mother and my sister and my wife and my friends at work ... Rights,
i believed that it would be better to advocate for human rights without discrimination . its best way to show a equality we are a human whatever of gender
Maybe it's been identified with such an opposed idea, because of the word itself. The section fem originates from the Latin word femina, meaning woman. Hence, the word appears to be orientated in some way towards women as it excludes a male stem. Subconsciously one may make the presumption that such word is pro-women and anti-men as a result. People, I know have identified it with man-hating because of this fact
One should really focus on the idea behind the word and not get caught up in the facade of the meaning.
You have no actual comment to support your statement.
It's meant to be a discussion not a one liner war
the only people say feminist hate men are men who fear feminism.Right wing politics to answer Peter have had a detrimental effect on women feminist and otherwise as embodied by Donald Trump.
Elle UK published a report showing two thirds of young women identify as feminist.
Many feminist are liberal and left leaning but not all. many feminist are political but not all.
What is universal is the desire to see women treated as the equals to men they are.
If there are men who feel threatened by that then they should ask themselves why what is it they don't want to lose?
I agree. Too often I hear people relate feminism to women who hate men which is definitely not the case. I also read an article where they rated feminist Disney characters. They would say mostly feminist except for the ending of the movie in which they end up with someone. An example was Mulan. Just because "they end up with someone" doesn't mean they are not feminist.
Hey Peter, I'm not sure your exact approach or level here but let me share my perspective, as we like to do on OSS.First, Cultural Marxism seems to be a gotcha-phrase to, I don't know, fight communism or something. I'm not really into gotcha questions so I'm going to rephrase:
Do I think that that cultures will change when they interact with each other? Yes.
Do I think culture weakens when they interact? No.
The short answer is artists.
The longer answer is that culture is always evolving, pushed to new boundaries by different and competing thoughts and view points. And that works in all directions, from the traditionalists to progressive.
What's cool is if everyone is allowed to have their own view point and as long as they don't hurt anyone else, all is good. That's equality.
What's cooler is that fusion culture done well leads to amazing new artistic realms, from unique voices. And as audience members to this great big world, it cool to see new and different things. But as many things are defined in opposition, this fusion means even traditionalist benefit from adversity of another culture.
The end result is we believe in an intersectional feminist agenda, and that means the catholic nun, the black transgender, the high powered CEO and everyone possibly inbetween/outside/yet unheard is ultimately empowered to be the very best of themselves. Where on the spectrum of culture/belief/politics they fall isn't for me to judge.
Do we have problems? Hell yes. I think OSS still has a big echo chamber effect, leaving to this shaming of non-liberal ideas and a bit dismissive of narrative that don't fit the collective feminist view. You're seeing that in some people unwilling to engage, or counter-trolling you.
I also don't think this place is great at addressing white cis male problems today, of which there are definitely many which does not take away from anyone else's struggle but should invoke empathy rather than dismissal or scorn, even if that's all that the empathy is met with.
In the end, I hope we all work towars being more open and accepting
Via social media I have experienced the "Ugh! White men" phenomena on a regular basis from some especially intense feminists. It is this kind of response that leads many (IMO) to believe feminism = man hater.Also, I have two children in their early 20s (one female, one male.) Both of them have been frustrated by "feminists" who make every topic of conversation an attack on the oppression of women. In these circumstances, the frustration centers around a reaction that feels like "I am a feminist, I must quash the other side and I must be louder."
Soscha wrote: ""When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."A useful but unattributable quote."
Where did you get that quote/who first said that?
Friend wrote: "If this is true, it is a result not a synonym, and this result varies according to the social conditions and culture. In my humble opinion, it impossible to settle. Women have rights more than the ..."
I think that's an interesting statement, to advocate HUMAN rights opposed to FEMALE rights as a way of better showing our support of equality. I understand feminism is more of a support of women's rights, and that's how it started, but I like to think of it as a support of human rights, as you said. And maybe changing the name from feminism to something else, something more gender neutral would help quell this idea of "man hate."
Debbie wrote: "Via social media I have experienced the "Ugh! White men" phenomena on a regular basis from some especially intense feminists. It is this kind of response that leads many (IMO) to believe feminism =..."
I think make an excellent point as to why people have begun to view feminism as "man-hate." I see so many posts going around facebook about things feminists say and do and guys' reactions to what they perceive as "gender equality." One that has particularly fascinated me is guys saying, "You want equality? Fine, I won't carry your shopping bags anymore. I won't give up my seat on the bus/subway for you anymore. I won't hold the door open for you anymore." I find this fascinating because it is of such minor consequence. Personally, I hold the door open for anybody - it was actually something I fought with my ex on on a regular basis because he didn't want to allow me to hold the door open for him. Also, there are women who identify as feminists and who do promote "man hate" in their speech. I've come across such women in my college and I grow tired of listening to them and try to avoid them when I can. The sad thing is, it's these views of feminism that are seen most and heard loudest. So we need to be louder. But I can't say I know how to do that.
@AshleyThat quote comes up quite often in social media discussions around all forms of privilege, race, sex, cis, etc. I couldn't recall the first time I heard it. Turns out it's been written so many times with so many slight variations there's no agreed-upon source for it: http://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/10/...
Peter wrote: "Hey Winston, Cultural Marxist isn't a "gotcha-phrase" for one who has some optimal wisdom recognises that it's an official term just like with "equality" and hers "Egalitarianism" I guess you haven..."Thanks for the expansive response. I'm afraid I honestly don't care enough to give you the same level of indepthness, though I did read through the response
But Black Samurai is great. You ever see Samurai Champloo or Afro Samurai? Cowboy Bepop? Beautifully done anime with great African and Japanese roots. Wouldn't exist without cross culture.
Anyway, I believe in humanity coming together. It's not going to be perfect, nothing is. But the tide tends to justice, because the vast majority of people are good, especially if you get to know them personally and in person.
You're right, I may be the less informed one here. That's fine, I'm mad ignorant about plenty of things, so it goes. But I'm the optimist, and that might be stupid but it also makes me a kinder person. And most importantly that makes it easier for me to treat others kindly, which is exactly the ridiculous answer an optimist would have for solving "Cultural Marxism"
Omar wrote: "Maybe it's been identified with such an opposed idea, because of the word itself. The section fem originates from the Latin word femina, meaning woman. Hence, the word appears to be orientated in s..."All this may be true, but no-one of sound mind would attribute the word 'human' to actually exclude women. It's quite a narrow way of thinking.
As to the original question here are some examples of why it is seen the way it is, all it takes is a little google search/research and you can see the examples of it existing and why there is an issue within feminism because of it. https://www.mrc.org/bozells-column/fe...
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/...
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/...
http://amazonfeminist.tumblr.com/post...
https://www.bitchmedia.org/article/ma...
http://www.fuse.tv/videos/2016/06/zar...
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/octav...
Mod
I take you mean the imposition of the one traditional family unit over all of us, irregardless of whether we deem it appropriate to ourselves or not. In which case, yes, we are against that imposition. Otherwise, your argument is grossly mistaken. Feminism is very much for family -family as a concept to be challenged, redefined and given all deserved consideration, so that it can truly serve society as the inclusive, nurturing, crucial atmosphere it's supposed to be. This means that family has to accommodate many different realities and individuals. It also has to be firmly rooted in equality. Only when children are raised in a critical, equality oriented, open-minded family can they grow up feeling loved and accepted, which will influence their foundations immensely. Family is indeed the land where an individual is planted -what kind of land shall their roots draw strength from? One that can effectively help the seed to become a tree? Or one that you should find yourself longing to tear away from?
You think feminism is against family? I beg to differ. We advocate firmly for family planning, women and girls empowerment and the end of gender violence. We defend the end of harmful roles that actually hinder families from finding the structure that works best for them because it does not fit the idea of the man as the breadwinner and pater familia, he who provides vs she who nurtures. We defend that the rights of mother and child do not actually end once said child is out of the womb -they actually become even more sacred after that moment. We defend that adults have freedom to decide whether they want to become parents to a human being or not, so that, among other reasons, they go into parenthood being aware of the huge, life-changing commitment that such a decision irrevocably entails.
I could continue enlisting reasons why feminism is actually very much for family. In many of our claims, moreover, we are deeply concerned about social justice. Say what you will about each wave of feminism. With their flaws and their strengths, they are all part of one sea, if you'll let me continue with the imagery.
Of course, it takes some critical thinking skills to even be willing to consider this instead of filling your discourse with terms such as left wing, destruction of the Western civilisation, which was doing fine and dandy before us feminists appeared obvs, and destruction of the family.
Peter I'm afraid you're running your own agenda here. The original post asked why feminism could sometimes be seen as synonymous with man-hate, not 'why do men hate feminists.' I really don't think feminists care if/why men hate them.In response to the original question I believe that this is becoming the case purely because men are threatened by women wanting their fair share of the power after centuries of oppression, so they call us all man haters & make us out to be hysterical snowflake liberal hippies so that we're not taken seriously.
Feminism being synonymous with man hating isn't such a bad thing. It is a sign that more women are being vocal and taking a bigger role in the society. I think that feminism have different meaning for everyone. Some women would probably have been oppressed by male members in her life and her fight for feminism would be about that.
These are such great ideas! Thanks a lot for the responses :)
Tasha, you make a very good point. It's interesting though to think that it may be the word itself.
My argument is along the line of Rachel's that those who closely associate the word with man hating are most likely to feel threatened in many aspects of their lives by feminists. Personally, I think feminism is beneficial for all of us as it breaks down the perceived barriers of what it means to be a man and a woman. Without such barriers self expression is promoted which ultimately leads to a more tolerant society as our differences are more visible.
Peter wrote: "Really anime example?...my point was simply that as we learn about the world we know that Samurai is assosiated with Japan, not Africa that it's "their" heretege (see Battlefield example), but hey!..."Hey again Peter, I'm still continuing to respond in only the way that interests me, because I'm lazy and you write extremely long responses that would take far more work to discuss than I care to provide.
I like using Anime as an example, because Cultural Marxism is inherently a culture based argument, and prefers traditional to critical.
It has nothing to do with history. Samurai Champloo or Cowboy Bepop use Hip hop and Rock&Roll as part of their story telling devices. Would these stories have the same impact or dynamic if it wasn't for the very purposeful use of other cultures? [African roots here but as an example for other amalgamations of culture.]
You could argue yes, that something Japanese/Asian would do the same thing or even be better, but I would say that these Anime stand out because they use other cultures. It isn't additive, it's multiplicative. Fight scenes pan out to rhymes and music. Transitions can use music to set scenes or take breaks in narrative. The opening theme music is memorable and catchy. Is the art for of Anime losing anything by having influences by other cultures? Hell no dude.
I never finished Hellsing, but it's a retelling of Western stories in Japanese form! If you like Hellsing, you enjoy the combination of cultures as is man.
Plenty of examples aren't good. People will continue to use appropriation and will blunder. That's especially true of EA, who are cultural movers like Goldman Sachs cares about consumer bank customers. Not at all unless it can make em money.
Finally, can you write with some more care? The small typos don't necessarily detract from your arguments but it does make it slightly harder to read
Winston wrote: "Hey Peter, I'm not sure your exact approach or level here but let me share my perspective, as we like to do on OSS.First, Cultural Marxism seems to be a gotcha-phrase to, I don't know, fight comm..."
Never have I agreed with anything written on OSS more than I agree with what Winston said here. Literally, everything you said resonates with me and I could not have put it any better.
Peter, I'm with Winston--I frankly don't care enough to reply to your long explanations. But I do have to say that what I've seen you write so far, on this thread and others, just seems so "political" in the sense that you want to put a label on everything. You're clearly "anti-liberal". That's fine, but just know that it's not about those "labels" here. We don't see labels, put entire groups under that certain label, and then stereotype every single person in that group under that label.
Societal problems are far too complex for that. Everything is gray. Everything.
Nothing is so black and white that it can be so easily explained away with the terms and political labels that you're throwing around.
feminism is not and never has been synonymous with hating men. Thought we should clarify that fact at this point.
Ross wrote: "feminism is not and never has been synonymous with hating men. Thought we should clarify that fact at this point."Except it is. So many people in the world hear or see the word "feminist" and all they perceive from it is man hating. Just take a scroll through comments on pro-feminist youtube videos and you'll see how prominent it is.
People tend to extremes, they don't seem to like the middle ground. It's the same in other fields of the society (politics, economics, etc.) so it works really well for feminism. I think they unconsciously fear that the middle ground is related to boredom or oppression, closure of debates, etc.
Ashley wrote: "Ross wrote: "feminism is not and never has been synonymous with hating men. Thought we should clarify that fact at this point."Except it is. So many people in the world hear or see the word "femi..."
Even EW acknowledged the perception of man-hating in her HeForShe speech. I dont think people putting their hands up to their ears and ignoring the problem is going to make it go away. Pretending that the perception doesnt exist wont solve the problem, it needs to be addressed from both sides of the aisle.
Emma wrote: "James wrote: "Ashley wrote: "Ross wrote: "feminism is not and never has been synonymous with hating men. Thought we should clarify that fact at this point."Except it is. So many people in the wor..."
Convincing people is always a difficult challenge. However, the best that we can do on our part is to try and continue to educate, inform, and teach the true meaning of feminism. Not only to those within the movement who use that mantra as a ideology but for those on the outside who view feminism that way due to the reputation that feminism has long had.
But here is the caveat to that.
Benarji made a statement that he felt that man-hating wasnt a bad thing for feminism. I disagree with that notion BUT if that perception is shared by many feminists then rather than fight the perception feminism should embrace it and accept it.
Personally, i do not think that would be a wise move and would be totally counter-productive to feminism let alone the HeForShe campaign. While i think its going to be a tough fight to rid the movement of that stereotype i do feel that it is essential to eradicate that ideal in order to bridge the division that it has with societies perception of the movement. Judging by the comments by women like EW and many of the members of OSS i feel that is the direction that we all want to go in minus a couple of exceptions.
It wont be an easy task but i do feel it can be achieved.
recent survey by Elle UK showed two thirds of young women identity as feminist. It seems the word as been reclaimed and Heforshe has helped in that.
Ross wrote: "recent survey by Elle UK showed two thirds of young women identity as feminist. It seems the word as been reclaimed and Heforshe has helped in that. "It's great that more women are identifying as feminism and that does show progress in be-ridding the notion that feminism is man-hating, but I wouldn't call it reclaimed. What you're referencing is not a survey on what people believe feminism stands for, but on which women identify as feminism.
I mentioned youtube comments earlier, and I did that because i became very annoyed glancing through some, and here's one example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWSVB...
"Alpaca Male feminism is garbage
Dylan Flynn Alpaca Male Do you understand what it is? Do you not have a mother that you want to be treated equally?
Alpaca Male Yes, I do have a mother and I want her to be treated equally, I also have a father and don't want him to be treated like shit. Therefore: feminism is garbage.
Dylan Flynn Alpaca Male Feminism is equal rights, not getting rid of the rights of men. I understand what you mean though, some feminists really are hypocritical and hate men, but that doesn't mean that feminism as a whole is garbage.
Alpaca Male I disagree with your definition of feminism and don't consider it to be equal rights.
Dylan Flynn Alpaca Male Look, as long as you agree that women should have equal rights, I'm cool with that. btw the definition of feminism is: the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes. nowhere does it say men should be treated like shit.
Alpaca Male And the definition of Communism is the equal redistribution of wealth, nowhere does it say you should kill 100 million people.
I think men and women should have equal rights and equal responsibilities.
Dylan Flynn Alpaca Male But the definition says the word EQUAL! men and women should be EQUAL!
Alpaca Male And I think it's bs, actions speak louder than slogans.
Owl +Dylan Flynn
Regardless of the dictionary definition, Feminism is a political movement which often treats the genders completely unequally. To give a few examples:
EskiBoy I'd normally agree with you Alpaca Male, feminism is recent years has been poisonous as many "feminists" have attempted to redefine what feminism is. However, when Emma speaks about real issues such as FGM and sexual violence that's when the debate becomes real. FGM for example is barbaric and it's happening in the UK, noone speaks of it in fear of offending Muslims."
It goes on and on. There are a lot of people who do understand feminism is about equality, but there are still just as many people who see it, or at part of it, as being synonymous with man-hating. So long as there is still a large portion of the world holding onto that belief that feminism, in any part, is man-hating, the word has not been reclaimed and we have to work toward that end.
Sorry for the long post. I used that particular thread of comments because it particularly infuriated me when I saw it.
Keith wrote: "She totally believes in equality for all and feels that this small minority, who push a ‘woman’s only’ brand of feminism, actually hurt the whole equality movement in the eyes of the general population." If this type of rhetoric is being espoused at one of the top University's in the UK, and if it's this message that is being listened to by the public, then, in my opinion, we have a very long way to go."
*This.
Im not sure how many people actually realize how impactful this is to those outside of the movement and the influence it has on the perception of feminism. Its why i believe you cant turn a blind eye to it, it needs to be addressed so that we can start to correct the negative stereotype that the movement has currently.
Keith wrote: "Ashley wrote: "It goes on and on. There are a lot of people who do understand feminism is about equality, but there are still just as many people who see it, or at part of it, as being synonymous w..."The thread infuriated me mostly because "Alpaca Male" was so bullheaded and refused to listen to reason, and I found "Owl's" example of feminists not "paying" for the vote as if he was looking at the situation with blinders on. If I am correct in my knowledge, women were not allowed in the military at that time, and so being exempt from the draft was more in correlation with that than with women "paying for the vote." Beyond that, the example is ignoring the pains and prosecution women went through to get the vote. It infuriated me because the people with these opinions posting were refusing to listen to the other arguments, and no one can learn anything from only seeing their side of things.
As for the conversation you shared, in an earlier post I responded to Friend, "i believed that it would be better to advocate for human rights without discrimination . its best way to show a equality we are a human whatever of gender." I think there is a link between the word feminist being of the root "fem" and thus being "female" and the idea that feminism is man-hating. Using the word humanist instead of feminist is a great idea to help separate that notion, but, as far as I can tell, the girl in which you spoke of is upholding the ideals of feminism, she's just choosing to use a different label for it. Frankly, humanity's obsession for needing labels for everything is at the root of so many of issues in society, and thus choosing the right label is critical. Humanist is a great label for it that leaves little room for misconceptions.
I do believe the acts of not including men in the movement and in such things as you described is not right and not supporting what feminism stands for. And I also agree that this happens everywhere around us and is causing this astigmatism on feminism to continue and grow and need to be addressed and corrected.
Hate is not a constructive word. Feminism, intersectional, what I like to call fourth wave embraces everyone all you have to be is Human -we may update that for AI soon who knows. However that does nor absolve men of there inherent responsibility for the oppression of women this must first be excepted by men and then addressed. All men should if they hold equality dear declare themselves for it. simplest way commit to @heforshe and tell people about it. Give even the radical feminist no reason to "hate" men as a group.
Its not about absolving anyone of anything. But it takes more than one side to make the bridge. Its about everyone being accountable and making an effort for change.
Keith wrote: "Ashley wrote: "The thread infuriated me mostly because "Alpaca Male" was so bullheaded and refused to listen to reason, and I found "Owl's" example..." Thank you for the explanation. I had sort o..."
I think you expressed yourself extremely well, and I agree. I face a lot of what you talked about as examples of why feminism has become known as man-hating almost daily.
You spoke of domestic abuse and that it isn't just women who get abused. My fiance grew up on a reservation and, this is a stereotype, but a rather accurate one if you speak with the police about it, among the Native Americans, women are notorious for abusing their spouses. His parents talk about male coworkers coming into work with bruises and even cuts from an angry wife. Their culture tends to deny them the ability to report it because to report it the husband wouldn't be "being a man."
There are of course plenty of other examples of men being victims of domestic violence, but that was what your statement reminded me of. Which leads to more issues linking with the fight for gender equality: society's views on gender roles. I don't know if that's something to get into on this thread, though...
Personally, I try fighting the "man-hating" perception in my own life as much as I can. My fiance was raised with the mindset (largely in part because of his dad) that the women is in charge of the relationship and she is the boss. I now try to undo that social training, constantly reminding him that we are partners and that i want his input and I want to know what he thinks and wants.
The other day we got into an argument because he kept replying with "ok" and, as I put it, becoming a "yes man" (if you've ever seen the movie, it's in reference of that). I asked him why he does that, and his response was that he thinks I'm a lot smarter than him and that I'm the woman and so he has to agree with me because I'm always right. I know try to remind him whenever he tends toward that habit that I don't want him to just agree with everything I say, that he has his own mind and I want to know his thoughts and it's ok if he doesn't agree.
I'm not entirely sure how related this is, but I do feel that mindset can contribute to the idea of "man-hating feminists" especially if someone is in a situation like mine, a feminist with a "yes-man" partner, and they take advantage of the "yes-man" partner. I feel that would be feeding the "man-hate" perception.
Ashley wrote: " I asked him why he does that, and his response was that he thinks I'm a lot smarter than him and that I'm the woman and so he has to agree with me because I'm always right."Ha!
Let me spend an afternoon with your husband, i will straighten him out. Just kidding.
But seriously, i am sort of like him in the sense that i know that my wife is smarter than me, she is the bread winner, and far more responsible than i am. The only difference between your husband and me is that im stubborn like a mule so when my wife and i disagree i rarely give in. lol
Didnt have much more to add but just wanted to say great post and i commend you with trying to work with your husband on a issue like that. You deserve so much credit for your patience and understanding with the guy in your life. :)
I think that there are multiple reasons why feminism seems to be connected to "man-hating." Some of the feminists I have had discussions with have claimed to be open minded. But this open mindedness only lasted until I disagreed with something they said.It could also be because many believe that men in the present are responsible for what men in the past did, instead of judging people by their own actions.
Just my two cents.
I am convinced feminism is not seen as anti men any longer in most countries in no small part because of heforshe. have to keep working on it however more men that do quicker this misconception will be removed
Mod
I witnessed some tensions (unconscious or directed) with our male identifying members who happens to disagree with someone who identifies as a woman. This has led to people leaving or previous posters going silent. Winston. Gerd. James. Robert. Ross, to name a few.
This goes against my version of feminism which believes
That everyone is hurt under patriarchy in one form or another and that only when we are all truly equal is when all of this pain will be just a memory.
-Its about improving the lives of those who identify as female, those identify as male, and everyone in-between.
- That being born with a uterus means you can speak your truth about Feminism as much as someone born without one because feminism is such a wide ranging concept that affects life, death, voting right, health, environment, property, etc...
Our founder, Emma herself champions equality. And yet it doesn't feel like that when we get to the forum. We are stronger and more effective together than we are when we attack or belittle other members of our cause. By being here, IMPO, you are a feminist and you're on the feminist side against those who think of gendered superiority.
Now... This isn't to say that we shouldn't ask questions or share the ways we are different. I can disagree with your opinion or make a suggestion of a situation that differs from yours. But I cannot argue about your experience. And I hope we all remember that.
What does everyone else feel?
Do you agree or do you disagree?
And to everyone on this board (regardless of identity) I apologize if any of my comments or strong opinions made you feel unwelcome
Just a quick message. When I disagree with someone who identifies as a woman (or someone who belongs to an oppressed group), now I fear so much to be depicted as a Patriarch or some kind of monster or to receive very very unpleasant comment (usually private message). It's like "look at this man... he mansplains." or "he pretends to be kind but he is a toxic manipulator.". Yes, I admit it I'm afraid of such comments, so sometimes I voice, and sometimes I just shut up because I don't want to deal with that emotionally.I agree, feminism is supposed to be for everyone. I also agree some people decided to not post anymore, some of them do not have time anymore, others felt OSS was not enough for them even though they probably all agree it's a good starting point.
In my opinion, there are as many definitions of feminism as there are feminists in the world. Not all feminists encourage gender equality, as some have more extremists views, and preach the superiority of women. Those "feminists" have a very radical, violent approach in conveying their ideology, and that could explain how feminism has become associated with man hate..
As a feminist, feminism has always only meant one simple thing: rights and opportunities should be available to all, equally, regardless of biological sex
Soscha wrote: "When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."Like!
Early feminism was by necessity pretty no-nonsense and often didn't mince words when attacking men's status in society and which rules they created for themselves to get away with... pretty much everything.
Those who hold power always do so rightfully in their own eyes and won't listen to arguments other than those they use themselves, i.e. violence.
Pam wrote: "Bringing this topic back because I'm worried about how OSS as a forum is approaching our members who identify as male.
I witnessed some tensions (unconscious or directed) with our male identifyin..."
I feel as a woman that some men may have difficulties to be less "Searching for attention", like man supposed to be "famous", "known" or "very close" to Emma, and actually needs to justify for their "kind" (or actually very exclusive") messages towards "men identified members".
I feel a lot of frustration that need a personnal update, like every updates that are personnal and sometimes indirect attacks, I feel that someone would love to be usefull but doesn't accept being "only" what they are. And a lot of frustrtion and Ill will, doesn't allow anybody to participate because that frustration is counter productive and let people believe they are not welcome, like, that book club is useless and you can't recommend a book because it won't be choosen... etc
I would love to like up your definition of feminism, Pam, equality for every body, is a real challenge, and implies to make a real effort to "exist less" and let other exist and have different point of views...
But will the reality of some people excluding others of the discussions, become again a reality, or should these exclusive persons be moderated, even if it's difficult because of some affective links. (I feel that weird feeling that Group rules are only for some people but not for every body), debates can't be lively, passionate, and respectful, as soon as some expérience weekness in being the one who have the last word by claiming affective links with mods or being attacked personnaly... some male identified member that is may be the only one to wright comments because that book club is really useless... And I saw persons making their own promotion as young authors, even if it's forbidden may be a special topic could be created instead of just remove the comments sometimes...
At least some will never put themselves in question, and will claim always to be victims and real victims will never be allowed to talk. It happend really often on that book club, and as a gay women who hate men, I believe it's not feminism, neither equality and doesn't help in creating emulation on the book club. I saw people who wanted to go way further in the discussion topic related to a book, becomming serious about seeking for solutions, being told they were doing personal attcks while they weren't attacking...
Even the introduction thread is becoming weird, why is that people need to welcome others like that..? Like the mods doesn't we do, the rest is bullshit, you won't talk with EmmaWatson, you better not implies, etc... I guess the intro is sent to any members having a digest and any body can contact a new member or at least let him arrive and learn how it works... Men or women are just strangulated to their very first comment, the less they comment the better some may succed to prove that book club is not cool AF.
My bad, but, It's my feeling that personnal updates needs to raise up questions, while it's been a while, and also many people reacts that way toward certain members... If the majority does that... may be their is a reason, hun 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
I witnessed some tensions (unconscious or directed) with our male identifyin..."
I feel as a woman that some men may have difficulties to be less "Searching for attention", like man supposed to be "famous", "known" or "very close" to Emma, and actually needs to justify for their "kind" (or actually very exclusive") messages towards "men identified members".
I feel a lot of frustration that need a personnal update, like every updates that are personnal and sometimes indirect attacks, I feel that someone would love to be usefull but doesn't accept being "only" what they are. And a lot of frustrtion and Ill will, doesn't allow anybody to participate because that frustration is counter productive and let people believe they are not welcome, like, that book club is useless and you can't recommend a book because it won't be choosen... etc
I would love to like up your definition of feminism, Pam, equality for every body, is a real challenge, and implies to make a real effort to "exist less" and let other exist and have different point of views...
But will the reality of some people excluding others of the discussions, become again a reality, or should these exclusive persons be moderated, even if it's difficult because of some affective links. (I feel that weird feeling that Group rules are only for some people but not for every body), debates can't be lively, passionate, and respectful, as soon as some expérience weekness in being the one who have the last word by claiming affective links with mods or being attacked personnaly... some male identified member that is may be the only one to wright comments because that book club is really useless... And I saw persons making their own promotion as young authors, even if it's forbidden may be a special topic could be created instead of just remove the comments sometimes...
At least some will never put themselves in question, and will claim always to be victims and real victims will never be allowed to talk. It happend really often on that book club, and as a gay women who hate men, I believe it's not feminism, neither equality and doesn't help in creating emulation on the book club. I saw people who wanted to go way further in the discussion topic related to a book, becomming serious about seeking for solutions, being told they were doing personal attcks while they weren't attacking...
Even the introduction thread is becoming weird, why is that people need to welcome others like that..? Like the mods doesn't we do, the rest is bullshit, you won't talk with EmmaWatson, you better not implies, etc... I guess the intro is sent to any members having a digest and any body can contact a new member or at least let him arrive and learn how it works... Men or women are just strangulated to their very first comment, the less they comment the better some may succed to prove that book club is not cool AF.
My bad, but, It's my feeling that personnal updates needs to raise up questions, while it's been a while, and also many people reacts that way toward certain members... If the majority does that... may be their is a reason, hun 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
Mod
@Emma; you're right that we are loosing some other members. (I miss Meerder). Like you said we don't know if anyone left because life got busy or if someone here made them feel less than welcome. I do know of a few people who left because OSS became toxic, but not everyone.
@Florian; I'm curious if others feel they have to watch their tongue too.
@Gerd/Soscha: Now, Rebecca Solnit's quote from Whose Story Is This " 'The hardest thing to reconcile is that just because you have good intentions doesn't mean it's your time to have a voice' Chris Evans"
I think this quote is applicable to EVERYONE regardless of gender. (And I know this is weird as I'm discussing letting people talk) but I think while OSS is a forum for everyone to share their thoughts there are definitely moments when we all need to ask questions as opposed to sharing our opinions.
I definitely learned this when I opened my mouth when discussing Thom's book "Fierce Femms and Notorious Liars." I mentioned to a good friend that it was so weird for me to be on the side that needed to be quiet and needed to listen to someone else. Too long I felt I was being shushed for being a woman that I didn't even realize that I was acting just like groups that I fought against like the MRA. It was... disquieting to say the least.
I can only imagine that it's similar to others on this forum who may also be in positions of power or socially accepted talkers that its a weird transition to be told it's time to let others talk. (she says as she rambles for another 5 paragraphs).
@Theo. Thanks! I'm a little weary of anything that has Jordan Peterson's name attached or highlighted as good opinion due to a video I saw of him previously. But I will give this a second watching. (The description says it cites him)
@Safia In my opinion, there are as many definitions of feminism as there are feminists in the world Do you think we need to define (and therefore restrict) the types of feminism here or just realize that this place has all kinds?
@Laurie: My thoughts exactly!
@Molly: I have been on this forum for a few years and the only people who know Emma Watson personally are two of the mods and 1 poster who identifies as a woman. I think you may have incorrect information regarding a dude knowing EW. To that end, the people who do know her also don't have special powers - unless you count being a volunteer mod and having to deal with all of us as being special.
I appreciate this comment I feel that weird feeling that Group rules are only for some people but not for every body If you ever do see someone getting special treatment, feel free to point it out to the mods. (Yay special powers of conflict resolution management)
Even the introduction thread is becoming weird, why is that people need to welcome others like that..? Like the mods doesn't we do Oh, that's because the introduction is the community's to own and to welcome others who have joined us. As you may have seen; the mods don't start a lot of forums or discussion threads here save for the ones regarding the business of OSS (book announcements, pay it forward, etc) and regulating the chat under the guidelines that they established. And again - been here for years so I've talked to a few of them before - they have lives of their own. Some are moms. Some are grad students. Etc. they cannot dedicate hours and hours to the forum. But we're fortunate that they stay out of love and responsibility to OSS.
But it's the community - the 20,000+ members that we have that are the ones who bring up questions, share their experiences, and bring this place to life.
So to everyone here... should we ask the mods to change the guidelines explicitly saying that man hate is not tolerated? Should we just make a conscious pledge between all of us that we'll try to ask more questions and hear each other out?
Pam wrote: Thanks! I'm a little weary of anything that has Jordan Peterson's name attached or highlighted as good opinion due to a video I saw of him previously. But I will give this a second watching. (The description says it cites him)
Dr. Peterson merely recommended the book which Dr. Hicks wrote. The video helps to explain postmodernism and (outside of Afrofuturism) feminism is a postmodern movement. It is worth the 11 minutes.
Dr. Peterson merely recommended the book which Dr. Hicks wrote. The video helps to explain postmodernism and (outside of Afrofuturism) feminism is a postmodern movement. It is worth the 11 minutes.
