AUG 2017 BOTM: The End of the Affair

[Dianne]

Hi folks! I am hoping to finish this tomorrow, it is really good so far! Has anyone read anything by Graham Greene before? What do you think of our main characters, Bendrix, Henry and Sarah? Apparently the author's own affair served as a central source for the plot. Is Sarah's comment true that love doesn't end?

[Jen]

I've only read The Quiet American and I liked it but didn't love it. I'm looking forward to this one but haven't started it yet. Hopefully will start tomorrow or this weekend.

I'll come back to answer the question about characters once I've read more.

[Dianne]

I'll add some more substantive questions too once I'm done :)

[Kristel]

I'v also read The Quiet American which I liked. This one, not liking as much but I get what the author is saying.

[Kristel]

Finished today. There is some things to contemplate here. I did not like Bendrix, I liked Sarah, Henry was kind of that person who is the "extra".

I think that love as written about here is not what I consider love. This is an affair. It might be love but is it love. Love is a choice we make. I think Sarah does make choices out of her love. Out of her love for all people who she touched in her life and unfortunately she was surrounded by a lot of self centered people.

I also think there is another story here and that is a story of faith, choosing to believe and that is where the choice to love comes in. Choice to put self aside for another. Bendrix did not have this. Sarah did. Perhaps even Henry had that kind of love.

[[deleted user]]

I have read a few Greene books;
The Quiet American
Brighton Rock
Our Man in Havana
The End of the Affair

I enjoyed all of them in different ways

[Leni]

I liked the book starting out. I enjoyed the writing, even if I found the main character quite unlikable. Self-centered, so consumed by jealousy he was determined to ruin everything good, hoping to be proved right in his suspicions so that he could stop loving. But okay, I can enjoy a book with a clearly unlikable protagonist. Depends how it's done. And this had a whiff of tragedy about it. There would be self-fulfilling prophecy and everything going downhill, and perhaps a lesson learnt. Or perhaps everything in ruins. I can dig that. And I liked Sarah.

Then it got lost in a drawn out repetition of love/hate/God/belief/disbelief/angst/angst/angst. And I just thought it was a bit silly. They were all being so stupid about everything. And that atheist character. Sheesh. His disbelief was just a thin veneer of must-disprove-God because he felt personally slighted by God. And, honestly, they all seemed to be suffering from exactly the same confused relationship of belief/unbelief-love/hate with God. It was like they were all getting along just fine without ever thinking about God, and then religious agony spread like some strange disease. (And what's with the general disbelief in medical doctors? They argued the existence of God at length, with each other and themselves, but the medical profession was just written off. Call the doctor? No no, I don't believe in doctors. (!?!))

And then the ending... There's a point where Maurice says that if this story had been one of his books, he would have ended the novel there. Why didn't Greene take his own advice? What was he trying to achieve by that ridiculous ending? I could rant at length here, but I guess I should let more people finish the book first.

[Sushicat]

This is the first book by Greene I'm reading. I'm about two thirds done and while I like the writing, I'm quite annoyed with Maurice, a bit less with Sarah. They all seem to be unable to grab hold of happiness.

[Jen]

I'm about 40 pages in and I can't say I like any of the characters. So far I feel some pity for Henry but he's not a particularly strong character.

What do people think about Mr. Savage's statement (page 14) "there's nothing discreditable about jealousy, Mr. Bendrix. I always salute it as the mark of true love."

Do others agree or disagree with this? To personally, jealousy isn't a mark of love at all but rather a mark of possession and that is separate from love.

[Leni]

I agree with you, Jen. Jealousy is a sign of insecurity and desire to possess and control. It can be present wether you love or not, but it is ultimately destructive and works against love. Maurice thinks a lack of jealousy is proof that Sarah doesn't love him. There's a scene where Sarah says she just wants him to be happy, and he says he would rather she was dead than with another man. I think Sarah has the better grip on what love is, wanting happiness for the other, and that Maurice only loves himself.

[Kristel]

See my comment above. I do not think this book or at least Maurice has any knowledge of Love. Love does not put self first as Maurice does. Jealousy is a sign of insecurity (agree) and not of love. I think Sarah had the truest form of love and Henry also probably had a truer sense of love because for Sarah, she put the other first and for Henry, he was willing to share with Maurice to be close to Sarah.

[Jen]

I'm not sure I agree with love being a choice (Kristel's comment). I think of the people I've loved in my life it doesn't feel like I chose to fall in love. I do agree with the rest of your comment and I agree with what the rest have you have said too.

Jealousy is an interesting emotion. I don't think it's a sign of love but I do think that in order to feel jealous you have to have strong feelings for someone or something (since jealousy is not restricted to romantic relationships.

[Dianne]

Here are some discussion questions for you all, feel free to answer any or all!

1. is it true as the book initially says that 'a story has no beginning or end'?

2. Is this book more about love or obsession?

3. Does Sarah reveal her true self to anyone? Why or why not?

4. Did you believe that Henry really had no idea what was going on?

5. How does the backdrop of war impact the story?

6. How do the principal characters feel about God?

7. How would you describe the evolution of the relationship between Bendrix and Henry?

8. Can you tell that Greene modeled this novel after his own life experience? It what ways?

[Dianne]

Kristel wrote: "Finished today. There is some things to contemplate here. I did not like Bendrix, I liked Sarah, Henry was kind of that person who is the "extra".

I think that love as written about here is not w..."

I thought that each of the 3 main characters were interesting but not particularly likeable. Sarah didn't seem true to herself, Bendrix seemed an obsessive nut and Henry seemed a sad sack.

[Dianne]

Book wrote: "I have read a few Greene books;
The Quiet American
Brighton Rock
Our Man in Havana
The End of the Affair

I enjoyed all of them in different ways"

which was your favorite?

[Dianne]

Sushicat wrote: "This is the first book by Greene I'm reading. I'm about two thirds done and while I like the writing, I'm quite annoyed with Maurice, a bit less with Sarah. They all seem to be unable to grab hold ..."

True! They are all a mess aren't they!

[Sushicat]

I think Maurice is a man who can't let himself love for fear of losing that person and that turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. He expresses his hurt at losing Sarah in very destructive ways. I do think he loved her as much as he was capable of.

[Sushicat]

Dianne wrote: ...I thought that each of the 3 main characters were interesting but not particularly likeable. Sarah didn't seem true to herself, Bendrix seemed an obsessive nut and Henry seemed a sad sack."

That sums it up pretty well.

[Kristel]

I especially did not like Bendrix. I am impressed that the author (if he was writing about himself, could be so self revealing. But in the context of the book, he tells us that books and characters are just characters and how difficult it is to develop a character. I think Henry is his flat character that he had to really work at to give him any substance. Henry was extremely flat, which would drive a woman to an affair with someone that had more emotions and Bendrix certainly had more emotions. Sarah, to me, was a likeable character. She did not reveal herself very much but then how much did Bendrix really want to know her. Everyone that had contact with her liked her. She had character that drew people. She struggled with her unbelief and she was willing to make her own decisions regardless of Bendrix or Savage's arguements (is that the right name?). Anyway, the atheist who was preaching to others.

I still liked flat Henry better than Bendrix. Bendrix for his old needs refused to let Sarah have a catholic funeral but Henry wanted for Sarah what she wanted. To me Henry loved Sarah more than Bendrix.

[Leni]

1. I guess that's true, yes. You can start and end a story at many different places, depending on what your point is, what it is you wish to tell, how much context you find it necessary to provide etc. Any story will flow into another story at various points.

2. Obsession, and about searching for love but not recognizing it.

3. Sarah barely reveals her true self to herself. We can piece her together from her actions, from her diary, and from what other people say about her. But honestly, we never see people's "true self". People are too complex and multi-faceted for that.

4. Henry seemed oblivious. He was not a man of passion, and didn't recognize passion in others.

7. I found the relationship between Henry and Bendrix a bit funny, in a sad way. In the end Bendrix has become a substitute for Sarah. He fills the empty space by being a presence for Henry to talk at and play cards with. Henry appears to see the people close to him as cherished pieces of furniture. Part of his routine.

[Sushicat]

3. Does Sarah reveal her true self to anyone?
Why or why not? Except in her diary, we see a picture of her distorted by the people who want to remember her as a particular person.

4. Did you believe that Henry really had no idea what was going on?
I think he really chose not to know.

5. How does the backdrop of war impact the story?
I don't think it had much of an impact, except for the incident that ended the relationship. But really, it could just as well have been an accident that triggered it.

7. How would you describe the evolution of the relationship between Bendrix and Henry?
From being rivals they turn into being each other's crutch, a meagre substitute for the person that is not there anymore.

8. Can you tell that Greene modeled this novel after his own life experience? It what ways?
The way Maurice's reaction to the loss of Sarah is portrayed is a very intimate one. The feelings - if not necessarily their expression - seem very authentic.

[[deleted user]]

Dianne wrote: "Book wrote: "I have read a few Greene books;
The Quiet American
Brighton Rock
Our Man in Havana
The End of the Affair

I enjoyed all of them in different ways"

which was your favorite?"

Tough question probably Our Man in Havana although I love the film version of The End of the Affair.

[Jen]

Dianne wrote: "Here are some discussion questions for you all, feel free to answer any or all!

1. is it true as the book initially says that 'a story has no beginning or end'?

2. Is this book more about love ..."

Great questions Dianne!

[Jen]

1. is it true as the book initially says that 'a story has no beginning or end'?

I found this an interesting idea and a great first sentence. I do think when it comes to literature this is true. The author determines where to start and end the story but these stories don't exist in a vacuum because events come before them and things happen after them. This is yet another book we are reading in which we are pulled into the relationship between author, reading, and the writing process.

[Jen]

2. Is this book more about love or obsession?

I agree with Leni here. I think it's about both since the various forms can be found in the book. I think Sarah's experience was closest to love whereas Maurice's experience was closer to obsession.

Does anyone think that Maurice actually loved Sarah?

[Sushicat]

Jen wrote: "2. Is this book more about love or obsession?

I agree with Leni here. I think it's about both since the various forms can be found in the book. I think Sarah's experience was closest to love wher..."

I think he did - as much as he is capable of.

[Pip]

I have loved Greene all my life and read many of his books, some more than once. I remember weeping over Sarah's hopeless vow but remember nothing of the questioning of faith. As it was more than 50 years ago I am not surprised! I also wept in the movie. I loved Deborah Kerr. I remember nothing more.

[Pip]

My favourite Greene is The Quiet American. How astute was he to predict the outcome of the Vietnam War? And when America made all those. blunders in the invasion of Iraq it was deja vu all over again! I have just finished Tender is the Night. It is fascinating to compare two novels which are apparently somewhat autobiographical. I will answer specific questions when I finish the book. I am about two thirds through, but my granddaughter arrives tomorrow for six short days, so I don't know when that will be!

[Diane]

I think I am in the minority, because I loved this book. I went into it without high expectations, because his other books have been hit or miss for me and because of the subject matter (infidelity). My favorite book of his prior to reading this was The Quiet American.

I didn't find the characters unlikable, although they were certainly flawed and at times, frustrating. Being that the book is semi-autobiographical, the way Greene created the characters might be close to who their counterparts were in real life (including the character who represented himself).

I think the book is about both love and obsession. They all loved in the ways they were capable. Sarah's love for Bendrix seemed the most genuine and it led to her promise to God. Henry was an odd character, but I think he knew and felt more than he led on.

[Jen]

Diane wrote: "I think I am in the minority, because I loved this book. I went into it without high expectations, because his other books have been hit or miss for me and because of the subject matter (infidelity..."

Actually, I think several here really loved it although it may not seem like it from the comments. I did like the book despite not liking the characters. I'm still trying to think about how I will rate it. I completely agree that they all loved in the way they were capable

[Kristel]

1. is it true as the book initially says that 'a story has no beginning or end'?
I guess that statement could be true about this story and a lot of life.

2. Is this book more about love or obsession? it's about the anatomy of an affair which is based on emotions which may have started with some kind of sexual arousing interpreted as love and progresses to obsessions. For Sarah, she was in a relationship with a man who she really hadn't loved and he a man who was not very demonstrative. Their relationship did develop over time and they were making it work. Sarah was making progress in finding her self and being satisfied with life.

3. Does Sarah reveal her true self to anyone? Why or why not? Sarah was growing as a character, she was learning about herself, she could not fully reveal herself to others because can we really every be fully known by another?

4. Did you believe that Henry really had no idea what was going on? Probably he did know on some level. Some people choose to ignore things that will disrupt our lives as we live them.

5. How does the backdrop of war impact the story? The backdrop of the war is the time period when the writer was writing so for him it is part of his experience. It also sets the "promise that Sarah made to God" but anything could have served that purpose. The war was only the context of the world at the time but not really a significant part of the book. I do think maybe affairs are ways people cope when life can be foreshortened by bombs landing on you.

6. How do the principal characters feel about God? Some reject God, some search for God, some are angry at God.

7. How would you describe the evolution of the relationship between Bendrix and Henry? It was odd but the common denominator was Sarah.

8. Can you tell that Greene modeled this novel after his own life experience? It what ways? Like I said previously, Greene was not a likable person if this Bendrix is him but on the other hand, you have to give himself credit for examining himself so closely but I think, as an author, he expanded on the character and that Bendrix is Bendrix and Greene is Greene.

I rated the book 4.28

[Sushicat]

Diane wrote: "I think I am in the minority, because I loved this book. I went into it without high expectations, because his other books have been hit or miss for me and because of the subject matter (infidelity..."

I loved the book, even if I did not especially like any of the characters. I think that the emotions described are honest ones in the context of grief. What Maurice does with them is not the best choice.

[Jen]

3. Does Sarah reveal her true self to anyone? Why or why not?

I agree with what you have all said in response to this question. I don't think she has revealed her true self to anyone. I did have empathy for Sarah being in a relationship without passion or strong feelings where you question whether or not your are important, understood, or loved by your partner. I can imagine that would be hard for anyone. She certainly couldn't reveal her true self to Henry but I'm not sure she could share with Maurice either b/c he was too self-absorbed and concerned more about his own role in her life than her needs.

[Leni]

Sarah was desperate to be liked and desired. She says as much to her diary. She's developed a way of acting that shows people what they want to see. I think she's too harsh with herself when she claims to be a fake. What she shows people is not a lie, it is part of herself. It's just not all of what she is.

[Jen]

Leni wrote: "Sarah was desperate to be liked and desired. She says as much to her diary. She's developed a way of acting that shows people what they want to see. I think she's too harsh with herself when she cl..."

That's true but I wondered has she always felt that way or did she develop that need out of being in a relationship where she didn't feel liked or desired? I wonder how much of her behavior or "fake" self came out of this reaction to being in a relationship where you feel invisible. I agree with you that she isn't showing a lie, that it's a part of herself

[Leni]

Good point. When did her "fake" behaviour start? I'm sure it was honed during her marriage where there was so much she had so suppress! And she gets a lover where she can let out her passionate side, but she still can't really be herself because he is so terribly jealous. Poor woman.

[Pip]

1 & 8. Greene makes the point that the author arbitrarily chooses a point at which to start and end a story. He has much to say about the process of writing a novel, even stating towards the end that "if I were writing a novel I would end it here" which implies that he is not writing a novel, but trying to make sense of what happened by writing it down. Maybe this is also a clue to the story being autobiographical.
2. Isn't passionate love obsessional? This is the story of a red hot passionate affair. I do not agree with Kristel that it is an either/or dichotomy, nor with Jen that true love does not arouse jealousy. When one is madly in love then one is obsessively jealous, at least in my experience. Greene describes love thus: "The desire to possess in some, like avarice: in others the desire to surrender, to lose the sense of responsibility, the wish to be admired. Sometimes just the wish to be able to talk, to unburden yourself to someone who won't be bored. The desire to find again a father or a mother. And of course under it all the biological motive".
3. Sarah has to be devious to hide her affair. She reveals herself in her diary, but she never tells Maurice much about her previous life. He knew nothing about her greedy mother, for example.
4 & 7. Henry showed, in his relationship with Maurice that he knew about their affair. He wanted to be friends with Maurice because of their shared love of Sarah.
5. During the war, when one felt that life could end very soon, people were less bound by convention.
6. The theme was faith. Maurice discusses God right from the beginning "I find it hard to conceive of any God who is not as simple as a perfect equation, as clear as air." and "If there is a God who uses us and makes his saints out of such material as we are, the devil too may have his ambitions:" After Sarah made her vow and Maurice was found to be alive, she believed it was a miracle and "believed the whole bag of tricks", although she sought advice from Smythe, the avowed atheist, to test her new convictions. I felt this was an expression of Greene doubting his own Catholicism. Greene compares God to an author creating a character. He notes that saints create themselves but ordinary characters need to be pushed around by God to serve His purpose.

[Anita]

Leni wrote: "I liked the book starting out. I enjoyed the writing, even if I found the main character quite unlikable. Self-centered, so consumed by jealousy he was determined to ruin everything good, hoping to..."

I actually really enjoyed your comments, Leni, in message #7. It sounded like you liked this book a a bit more than I did, but my criticisms are in the same vein. Except yours are definitely written in a more humorous manner!

Normally, I enjoy a good unlikable character now and again, but Bendrix just struck me as the typical jealous guy who wants what he can't have and obsesses about it incessantly. There really wasn't any aspect to him that seemed sympathetic. The reader isn't really left with anyone to root for . . .

This book just went off the rails for me. It started off in and interesting way with the love triangle, but it really was about faith in the end, with the affair only serving as an excuse to discuss issues of faith. Which may be interesting to some readers, but it totally wasn't to me.

My review below:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Anita]

Jen wrote: "I'm about 40 pages in and I can't say I like any of the characters. So far I feel some pity for Henry but he's not a particularly strong character.

What do people think about Mr. Savage's statemen..."

I think jealousy and love can co-exist, but that love marked predominantly by jealousy tends to be very selfish and leads to problematic relationships. Jealous love is more like the way someone loves, say bacon or a Ferrari . . .you want to possess and consume the person without regard to that person's autonomy.

[Anita]

2. Is this book more about love or obsession?

To me, it was about neither of these things. I felt like the affair was merely an excuse to discuss elements of faith and how humans struggle with faith and its applicability in the real world.

If the book was actually about obsession, I think I would have liked it a lot more . . .

I actually did enjoy the initial premise where Sarah made a promise to God in the face of tremendous fear, and then struggled with what that promise really meant. If that was the only reference, I would have really liked the book much, much more.

[Leni]

Those are good points, Anita. It is like the book started off as one thing and then went off the rails! I'm fine with having an event be a catalyst for what the author really wants to discuss, but here it seems more like the author got lost in his own attempt to understand the past.

[Sushicat]

I'm not a religious person. Looking at your comments it seems I kind of blended out the religious aspects or rather saw them more as excuses for behaviors I considered selfish rather than honest development of faith. I think my rating would have been different if this were not the case.

[Jen]

Anita wrote: "2. Is this book more about love or obsession?

To me, it was about neither of these things. I felt like the affair was merely an excuse to discuss elements of faith and how humans struggle with fai..."

Interesting reactions. I too am an atheist and don't enjoy books that feel preachy about religion but I didn't find myself too bothered by this book. I find books about religion to be interesting when they focus on why people believe or that teach me about different religious philosophies. I didn't find the reasons and manner for her turning back to her faith to seem silly and superficial but other pieces where interesting to me. It was only 3 stars for me for a variety of reasons. I almost feel like I should revisit the book with your comments in mind.

[Anita]

Jen wrote: "Anita wrote: "2. Is this book more about love or obsession?

To me, it was about neither of these things. I felt like the affair was merely an excuse to discuss elements of faith and how humans str..."

I am interested in non-fiction writing about religion, and am fine with it in fiction in limited doses, but somehow this book felt like it really took people who weren't religious to begin with and somehow tried to explain how God was revealing His presence to them, and I found that to be more irritating then if the person was religious from the get go and that was part of their persona. The atheist character was also portrayed as very odd and willing to compromise (well at least put aside) his personal belief system for lust? At least that was my interpretation. He also was attempting to convert others to his perspective, and I can't relate to that need at all. Obviously, I might be taking this a bit too personally, but the motivations of the characters in the book just didn't ring true to me . . .

[Jen]

Here's an interesting article given some of the discussion on here about Greene's religious messaging in this book:

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/03/boo...

[Kristel]

Jen wrote: "Here's an interesting article given some of the discussion on here about Greene's religious messaging in this book:

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/03/boo......"

Thanks for sharing Jen, I liked the article.

[Anita]

Jen wrote: "Here's an interesting article given some of the discussion on here about Greene's religious messaging in this book:

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/03/boo......"

Fascinating article, but mostly confirms the way I felt about how he addresses religion in the book . . .

[Jen]

Anita wrote: "Jen wrote: "Here's an interesting article given some of the discussion on here about Greene's religious messaging in this book:

http://www.nytimes.com/1983/04/03/boo......"

yes, I agree