The Masqueraders August 2017 Group Read Chapters 1-16

[Critterbee❇]

This is my third time reading this, and it has been years since I last read it, so I do not remember too much. I am slowly savouring it, taking my time and enjoying it much more than I remember.

I think that if I really enjoyed it the first and second times, I would have re-read it more often.

[Critterbee❇]

I like how quickly the siblings realized the issue in the inn, developed a plan, and successfully carried it out.

[Jan]

I am reading my old Pan PB printed 1985. The cover of this series of reprints isn't too bad. A bit lurid, perhaps.

It's quite a while since I read this one, in fact long enough to have completely forgotten almost all of it, except that I remembered there was a brother and sister who got up to all sorts of tricky mischief. I though they were twins, actually. (If they are, please don't tell me - I'm rereading this 'blind'). I don't particularly remember it as being a fav Heyer, but I'm keeping an open mind, and liking it so far. (I'm currently in Chapter 8 - The Black Domino).

My first impression was that the language is so old-fashioned and stylised. I knew it was an early Heyer, but I don't remember the quaint language usage in These Old Shades being so noticeable. But after the first couple of chapters, either I started to get used to it, or the language has 'mellowed' somewhat. Perhaps a bit of both?

I wasn't confused for too long over the revelations early on (view spoiler)[about the cross-dressing (hide spoiler)] but that may be because a dim memory from a previous read helped me out. I do think the storyline is a little confusing at first though, until you 'get in the zone' with the slightly (to me) stilted language style.

I do like Tony, and both Prue and Robin as well. (view spoiler)[ Robin's romance will clearly be secondary to Prue and Tony's , but so far, I can't really see the attraction in the slightly silly Letty (hide spoiler)] I also like Lady Lowestoft.

It's fairly fast-paced with a slightly ridiculous but enjoyable plot line so far. I like how Heyer is playing on (view spoiler)[the cross-dressing (hide spoiler)]. I did have to dust off my rusty English history knowledge to try to make sense of the early references to (view spoiler)[Bonnie Prince Charlie etc (hide spoiler)]

But, overall, so far so good......

[Hana]

I think I read this about ten years ago and I'm still finding it confusing. Partly it's the name/role switches but also that I don't know this period in British history at all. From Googling around it seems this is shortly after the Jacobite rebellion of 1746 which doesn't leave me much the wiser.

I like Prue very much and Sir Anthony--the card game in Chapter 6 was very amusing.

[Belinda]

Okay - I came across a part at the end of Chapter 8 that I found 'cheesy' and a bit of a cliche.
The first appearance of L'inconnu to Letty at the masked ball. It is the last sentence: "There was no one in sight, but she thought she heard an echo of his adieu borne back to her on a soft wind."
DO I forgive GH due to her age (25/26 year old) or do you think she was trying to write the scene through the young, inexperienced Letty's eyes? I think there are passages that admit Letty is a bit silly and is drawn to the romantic.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Belinda wrote: "Okay - I came across a part at the end of Chapter 8 that I found 'cheesy' and a bit of a cliche.
The first appearance of L'inconnu to Letty at the masked ball. It is the last sentence: "There was n..."

(view spoiler)[ I think Robin was giving Letty the romance she craved! (hide spoiler)]

[Barb in Maryland]

Belinda wrote: "Okay - I came across a part at the end of Chapter 8 that I found 'cheesy' and a bit of a cliche...."
I do think that GH was trying to emphasize Letty's youth and her tendency to the romantic. After all, Letty had already run off with Markham, looking for a romantic adventure. Even though the episode w/Markham had quickly turned into harsh reality, Letty was not 'cured' of her desire for a truly romantic encounter. What better than a dashing mystery man?
I also agree with Carol's reply.

[Hana]

I actually loved the masked ball and the mysterious L'Inconnu was amusing. Things get livelier still when the Old Gentleman makes his appearance. He reminded me of The Count of Monte Cristo with all his complicated machinations and the all-knowing egotism.

[Susan in Perthshire]

Hana wrote: "I actually loved the masked ball and the mysterious L'Inconnu was amusing. Things get livelier still when the Old Gentleman makes his appearance. He reminded me of [book:The Count of Monte Cristo|7..."

Sorry Hana, it's an interesting comparison and I can see why you might make it, -but I don't think the Old Gentleman is a patch on the Count. The latter's character and motivation is developed in such meticulous detail and with such emotional understanding that one comes to know him and empathise with his situation.

[Pamela]

The thing that drove me crazy was the use of "it" to refer to people! Did they really do that in the 18th century? I've never seen that usage before.

[Jenny]

Pamela wrote: "The thing that drove me crazy was the use of "it" to refer to people! Did they really do that in the 18th century? I've never seen that usage before."
I don't know whether it was genuine upper-class C18th English usage, but it sounds like a direct translation from French idiom to me. It wouldn't be unlikely for posh people at the time to affect a French style of talking.
Actually, the linguistic affectations - in narration as well as dialogue - are the other reason I never much liked this book.

[Abigail]

I’ve seen writers (including Jane Austen) use “it” to refer to small children, but not much with adults.

[Pamela]

Jenny wrote: "Pamela wrote: "The thing that drove me crazy was the use of "it" to refer to people! Did they really do that in the 18th century? I've never seen that usage before."
I don't know whether it was gen..."

That confuses me even more. Admittedly, my French is strictly American high school, and 30+ years ago. But don't the French use gender-specific pronouns for everything? I seem to remember learning that all nouns are gendered and one must use the pronoun that matches.

[Hana]

Susan in Perthshire wrote: "I don't think the Old Gentleman is a patch on the Count. The latter's character and motivation is developed in such meticulous detail and with such emotional understanding that one comes to know him and empathise with his situation. ..."

I agree about the complexity of The Count (I have to admit I disliked the Count as well even though I understood and sympathized with his situation). GH seems to be playing the Old Gentleman for laughs as a parody of Romantic figures like The Count.

I didn't notice the use of "it" as a pronoun for people. Do you have an example, Pamela?

[Barb in Maryland]

Hana wrote: "I didn't notice the use of "it" as a pronoun for people. Do you have an example...

The usage is scattered throughout the book, always used in conversation. Here's a few I quickly found:
page 3 (referring to the old gentleman) "It's the devil himself, I believe, and will appear in London..."
page 17 (referring to Sir Anthony) "Faith, it's a stern suitor."
page 183 (referring to Peter Merriot) "Oh sir, it's a most sober youth"
also page 183(referring to Kate Merriot) "It's a sad piece, I believe".

[Jenny]

Barb in Maryland wrote: "Hana wrote: "I didn't notice the use of "it" as a pronoun for people. Do you have an example...

The usage is scattered throughout the book, always used in conversation. Here's a few I quickly foun..."

I think in all those cases, French idiom would use 'C'est'

[Hana]

Thanks, Barb and Jenny. I get a sense from the examples Barb gives that the shift in pronoun might be a way to soften the criticism: "He's a most sober youth" or "She's a sad piece" read very personally, rather than ironically.

[Hana]

Barb in Maryland wrote: "...(referring to the old gentleman) "It's the devil himself, I believe, and will appear in London...""

One thing that struck me is that the Old Gentleman's nickname reminded me of an ancient folk moniker for the Devil, "The Old One"!

GH's Old Gentleman seems both sinister in a Gothic sense; All Powerful in a Romantic sense; and rather insane to contemporaneous modern readers schooled in psychoanalytic theory. GH was writing (1920s) when all these threads would have been quite alive and kicking.

[Susan in Perthshire]

Jenny wrote: "Barb in Maryland wrote: "Hana wrote: "I didn't notice the use of "it" as a pronoun for people. Do you have an example...

The usage is scattered throughout the book, always used in conversation. He..."

I think that's absolutely true Jenny; and it definitely removes the immediately personal from what are criticisms Hana.

[Susan in NC]

Pamela wrote: "The thing that drove me crazy was the use of "it" to refer to people! Did they really do that in the 18th century? I've never seen that usage before."

Thanks for bringing that up - it wore on my nerves as I was reading! And thanks for the explanations, they make sense, I'd never seen it before and I currently have to concentrate and " work" at reading, so it needs to be enjoyable.

[Jacquie]

I've read this book umpteen times and this is the first time that their tale of their previous experiences as told to Therese registered, the result of having read The Outlander (well, the first 6 books) last year!
Culloden finally registered...

[Jacquie]

I've read this book umpteen times and this is the first time that their tale of their previous experiences as told to Therese registered, the result of having read The Outlander (well, the first 6 books) last year!
Culloden finally registered...

[Carolm]

For me, the reference to the Old Gentleman is not a reference to his age, but a reference to him being the one in control. I know a lot of people, especially young men, who refer to there father or a friend's close father as the old man, no matter what the age of the man in question actually is.

[Jan]

Carolm wrote: "For me, the reference to the Old Gentleman is not a reference to his age, but a reference to him being the one in control. I know a lot of people, especially young men, who refer to there father or..."

Good point Carolm.