World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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What's a drop out rate among authors?
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I think there are a few authors who only intended to publish one book - once it's done they move on to something else. Others become disillusioned by the lack of interest in their work. Some of us just keep writing regardless! If you meant dropping out of websites rather than writing, I guess they find it too time consuming and spend the time writing.
I think a lot of authors misunderstand what Goodreads is all about. Most groups are about people who love to read - and quite a few are genre specific. This group is one of the rare ones where people don't run if you say something like "In my book..."
Of course, many groups have specific spots for authors to promote their own work, but Goodreads really is about community, not about shouting "Buy my book!"
Rita wrote: "Others become disillusioned by the lack of interest in their work."I think it's the main reason, as absence of any response from the readers is probably worse than severest criticism...
He stared at the sales figures. Days, weeks, months of zeros interrupted by the occasional blip of a single sale. There was one day with three sales, his brother, his sister and himself. He had brought the one copy, just to prove that everything was working - at least, that was what he had told himself.
His heart sank, he wondered if it could sink any further. It was the indifference of the audience that hurt the most. No one cared enough, no one was interested enough, no one seemed to want his book.
He shook his head. Where had he gone wrong? He had read plenty of books that were selling, and yet were not as entertaining as what he had written.
"What have I done wrong?" he whispered to himself in his lonely room.
He looked at the website again. There was a group focused on writers and authors, with threads that spoke of marketing. His eyes narrowed, he burned with intense longing. He would succeed. The past was the past. Anything could be achieved through persistence. He would learn what he needed to learn and apply it. In the end he would achieve his goals and become a successful author with enough sales to live on.
He clicked on the thread and it filled his laptop's screen.
He studied what was written there.
That's the spirit, Graeme! Love your creative approach -:)
Aw, I love that sweet little story! Can't wait to see how it ends :D.Nik wrote: "Yeah, I'm only a couple of years on GR, but even during this relatively short period as opposed to the age of the universe, I've noticed some authors 'dropping out' from active involvement in lit a..."
This might sound kinda blasphemous, but I'd never heard of goodreads until last year when I looked into self-publishing. I saw it mentioned on a couple different blogs. The impression I got was that authors should join GR to tell people about their books and get reviews. Once I signed up for GR and lurked for a couple months before actually posting anything, I could tell that wasn't really the intent. So maybe if other authors found GR in a similar way to how I found it, they got discouraged when they found it wasn't necessarily a place to do their selling, which caused them to e-disappear.
I think the assumption for the brand new author is that millions of readers are dying to read a new book (especially free!) in order to review it. When I came to GR and realized it took tons of effort to find one willing reviewer, I wasn't sure how much benefit my book would actually get. Then I learned a little more about the structure of GR (which actually holds a lot of sales potential) and discovered it contains all the info on marketing that a new author could hope for. It's just a matter of spending a lot of hours reading the forums. I mostly stayed on GR because I enjoyed the conversations taking place and learned a ton. Probably about 1/2 the GR authors that I interacted with last year are still here/active.
So I guess I came for the sales and reviews, stayed for the company :D. Some people probably run out of patience, or realize it's not for them and move on with their lives. I signed up for a site called Library Thing with the same agenda I joined goodreads for: sales and reviews. But I could not make heads or tails of that site. Same with Riffle. So you could say I "dropped out" of those sites. Goodreads is the one I consider the most user/author-friendly as well as interesting. I used to be able to post more here, but right now my life is ridiculously hectic, so I'm mostly just logging in to see what's new without adding my response. I'm with you all in spirit!
On the plus side of my hectic life, I'm now officially a dual citizen of Mexico and the United States!!! This means a whole new world of possibilities for my family and me!!! So if anyone needs me, I'll just be over here, celebrating. ♥♥♥♥♥
Cheers to this new duality! Got my San Miguel raised!Also didn't manage to connect with library thing..
I think it definitely has to do with all the rolling factors mentioned above, but top two (imho) being: authors who only intended to publish one book & the others who are hibernating and doing what they do, writing away. It's cyclical?
The trouble with Graeme's story is it lacks something to make it a best seller, which shows that writing about the truth and your life is not always the way to fame and fortune, in fact i suspect the only time it is is when you already have fame and fortune. :-(
Have you noticed people disappearing? :) And hopefully not from corona or any disasters
The odds against a novice author achieving commercial success within this extremely competitive field are great. That said; some have. So, although improbable, it is not impossible.There are those with the determination, patience, time, and resources to keep trying ad infinitum or until they eventually do achieve commercial success. Others, like myself, put everything they have into their first attempt and realize that their absolute best was not good enough, then choose to move on to other challenges and opportunities.
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: It is the courage to continue that counts."
Winston Churchill
I've no idea what it's like in other countries but in my country (Australia) trade publishing is on its knees.Part of the problem (I believe) is that the industry only publishes its mates already inside the network. I've managed to jamb a toe and elbow inside the door but that's about it. The indifference of the mainstream to anyone not part of the club is very depressing and the result is a homogeneously uninteresting publishing culture devoid of interesting voices. No wonder people aren't buying books.
But I persevere.
Love him or hate him, Woody Allen was bang on the money when he said that success only comes to those who keep turning up.
In New Zealand, local publishing is almost entirely restricted to things of only NZ interest - non fiction, or historically set, and restricted to small runs that can be largely sold to local libraries or where thee is considered to be low risk. If you write anything else it has to be published offshore, where the NZ author is at a serious disadvantage when it comes to promoting sales. In NZ it is a really really bad idea to give up your day job to write.
Adrian wrote: "I've no idea what it's like in other countries but in my country (Australia) trade publishing is on its knees.Part of the problem (I believe) is that the industry only publishes its mates already..."
Well said.
Established authors who have achieved commercial success tend to continue to do so consistently. Whenever the announcement of a new book is revealed to the public at large, advance orders, more often than not, make it a best-seller before the official release date.Traditional publishing is alive and well, with no shortage of contracted authors writing new books and avid readers eager to purchase them.
There are always exceptions to every rule, but the majority of those writers that self-publish do so primarily because they have failed to attract the attention of a well-established traditional publisher. A few have achieved commercial success; however, they are the exception rather than the rule. A review of the books I own reveal that, of the total of 127, 6 are self-published by the author and 121 are traditionally published.
It's no doubt difficult to be accepted by a traditional publisher, and I only tried once early on.By going the independent route I've retained full control while exposing my writing to numerous readers, authors and editors. The net effect is that I have transformed my writing craft and continue to build an audience.
If I was a Trad Publisher, I wouldn't have accepted my first effort, especially from an unknown author - just too much financial risk involved. I'd wait for the indie writers to build their audiences - that is the little pot of gold for the publisher before seeking to bring them on board.
Jim wrote: "Traditional publishing is alive and well, with no shortage of contracted authors writing new books and avid readers eager to purchase them."What does alive and well mean? I can only speak for Australia but so-called publishers no longer experiment with new and interesting voices. They only go with established writers already contracted or celebrities from other walks of life who might bring their own audience.
Publishing used to be about discovery but now it's only about the dollars - and that has become a self defeating approach because without the new voices replenishing the industry the publishers are getting boring and therefore selling fewer books.
I was recently shocked to learn that people who work for the big publishers in Australia are on extremely low salaries because the margins won't sustain higher pay. As for bookstores - they're closing everywhere, which surely means an opportunity for non-traditional publishers using novel methods.
Adrian wrote: "Jim wrote: "Traditional publishing is alive and well, with no shortage of contracted authors writing new books and avid readers eager to purchase them."What does alive and well mean? I can only s..."
A traditional publisher is a commercial business, not a non-profit organization. Any commercial business, regardless of the product, must focus upon obtaining products that will likely produce a net profit.
True; brick-and-mortar book stores are closing by the hundreds, just as brick-and-mortar stores selling other products are closing. On-line shopping is becoming more popular every day. The convenience and time-saving attributes are just too attractive to the average customer.
Not very long ago, the title of Published Author could only legitimately be claimed by a few hundred thousand living writers. The invention of the personal computer and internet made it possible for millions to now profess to be published.
Even the most talented writer requires the services of a competent copy editor, conceptual editor, and layout design artist to provide constructive criticism and suggestions to improve and polish their work prior to publishing. When one attempts to critique their own work, the eye tends to see what it wants or intends to see, not what is actually there. Personal acquaintances all too often tell someone what they think they wish to hear rather than their frank and honest opinion.
With few exceptions, a product produced with no quality control guidelines and qualified personnel in place during production and distribution seldom meets even the minimal definition of a quality product likely to succeed commercially.
Jim wrote: "Even the most talented writer requires the services of a competent copy editor, conceptual editor, and layout design artist to provide constructive criticism and suggestions to improve and polish their work prior to publishing. When one attempts to critique their own work, the eye tends to see what it wants or intends to see, not what is actually there. Personal acquaintances all too often tell someone what they think they wish to hear rather than their frank and honest opinion...."These are all sound observations. Some/many indies do invest in purchasing external services for editing, critique, professional cover and more to offer a high standard product. Many others take it easier and sometimes cast an amateurish light on all indies.
It is a LOT of work being an indie writer. I used an editor and an artist on top of that. But I for one have NO intention of dropping out. It is part of me now.
Jeffrey wrote: "It is a LOT of work being an indie writer. I used an editor and an artist on top of that. But I for one have NO intention of dropping out. It is part of me now."
I agree with that. It’s part of me, and I still enjoy writing even if I may not have gained great financial success with it.
Those self-published authors who love their craft and persist in expending the time, effort, and resources pursuing their long-term goal of having as many readers as possible read their books should not allow disappointment or less than complimentary ratings or reviews to discourage them from continuing those efforts.The law of averages alone guarantee that a few of those novice writers who post on Goodreads will eventually become commercially successful. I look forward to the time when I can boast to my acquaintances that I had the privilege of sharing opinions and ideas with that writer before they became a best-selling author.
Jim wrote: "A traditional publisher is a commercial business, not a non-profit organization. Any commercial business, regardless of the product, must focus upon obtaining products that will likely produce a net profit."Obviously.
But when is the last time you heard any trad publisher wax lyrical about business? People go into publishing because they love books but, unfortunately, increasing pressure on the bottom line means publishers have entirely changed character to the extent that they no longer take a risk on anything.
No risk means no adventure...no experimenting with new voices as they used to. It's bad for everyone - not least readers.
Adrian wrote: "Jim wrote: "A traditional publisher is a commercial business, not a non-profit organization. Any commercial business, regardless of the product, must focus upon obtaining products that will likely ..."Many often refer to the 'good old days' nostalgically, regretting how much has changed for the worst. At 73 years of age, I feel qualified to suggest that the best thing about the 'good old days' is that back then I was neither good nor old.
The traditional publishing business was always profit oriented. Case in point: Mary Ann Evans (1819 - 1880) had to publish her many popular and highly acclaimed novels under the pseudonym George Eliot due to the fact that the established publishers of the time refused to consider literary works from female writers because they believed that the reading public would be reluctant to purchase them, if at all.
Jim wrote: "....The law of averages alone guarantee that a few of those novice writers who post on Goodreads will eventually become commercially successful. I look forward to the time when I can boast to my acquaintances that I had the privilege of sharing opinions and ideas with that writer before they became a best-selling author."A bit sarcastic, I'm sure, but your attitude is deservedly gritty. Marie isn't very active recently, but we had the honor to e-meet her before she sold impressive amounts of books: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...
Nik wrote: "Jim wrote: "....The law of averages alone guarantee that a few of those novice writers who post on Goodreads will eventually become commercially successful. I look forward to the time when I can bo..."The comment was a factual statement, not sarcasm. The title of this discussion referenced the dropout rate among authors posting on Goodreads. The statement in the second paragraph of message 25 is factually correct, based upon a statistical analysis.
No sincere novice author should allow the lack of sales, reviews, or support discourage them from pursuing their goal. I actually believe that the law of averages alone will fulfill my prediction that some author with whom I may have interacted with in a Goodreads discussion site may eventually join the ranks of best-selling authors. Patience and determination often prevail in any endeavor.
Nik wrote: "A bit sarcastic, I'm sure, but your attitude is deservedly gritty. Marie isn't very active recently, but we had the honor to e-meet her before she sold impressive amounts of books:..."Marie was a very active promoter and she built her shelf of books quickly, both assets for establishing successful sales levels.
Jim wrote: "I had the privilege of sharing opinions and ideas with that writer before they became a best-selling author...."Depends on what you want to consider. One of my pen names has had 6 titles hit #1 in different paid categories, One title hit #1 in a category in Mexico, and I had one title hit 85 in the overall graphic novel category in France. The last 11 titles I put out under that pen name were #1 New Releases in 1-3 different categories each...the latest still has the #1NR banner...
...But I'm not exactly making bank yet, so...
J.J. wrote: "...But I'm not exactly making bank yet, so......"
Hope you will, J.J.. Leading on scoreboards should translate into monetary rewards
The exposure on those lists is the best advertising you can get...and it's free. The key is to find those niche categories without much competition. and slip your books in them......just don't try to get into the categories I'm in unless your book fits, or I'll report it... :D
J.J. wrote: "Jim wrote: "I had the privilege of sharing opinions and ideas with that writer before they became a best-selling author...."Depends on what you want to consider. One of my pen names has had 6 tit..."
Amazing. Congratulations.
Graeme wrote: "J.J. wrote: "Jim wrote: "I had the privilege of sharing opinions and ideas with that writer before they became a best-selling author...."Depends on what you want to consider. One of my pen names ..."
What helps is that I'm in some niche categories. So as I'm writing this, I have one that just hit number 1 with an overall store ranking at 178k. :D
And that is actually high for the category...#1 usually takes getting closer to 100k overall
Another category I hit once in a great while, the current #1 book sits at 35k overall.
These aren't super competitive categories, but it's still fun to compete in them...and I'm super protective too, so I just reported a whole mess of books someone dumped in them that don't belong... :D
We’ll try not to crowd your categories, J.J. :)
J.J. wrote: "These aren't super competitive categories, but it's still fun to compete in them...and I'm super protective too, so I just reported a whole mess of books someone dumped in them that don't belong... :D..."Indeed, well done.
(Taps mic) (Sotto Voce) "Is this thing live?"(Calls...) "Welcome to the Triple W Arena for today's World Championship Match. We have an action-packed board booked for today. The preliminary games have already been played. The blood has been mopped from the sand. The cheerleaders have cheered, and our sponsors have displayed their mid-break advertisements. Our current champion, Mr. J.J. 'The KO King,' Mainor stands nonchalantly in the middle of the arena like he doesn't have a care in the world. The preliminary games have barely worked up a sweat for our champ!"
(Close up on J.J.'s forehead) A single bead of perspiration rolls down his skin.
(Panning shot of the crowd) The crowd cheers, hoots and conducts a Mexican wave. The Triple W Arena mascot dressed in a typewriter costume moonwalks on the sidelines.
(Calls..) "Wait! What's this?"
(Cut shot to the right of the Arena) Someone has charged onto the arena with a box full of books.
(Calls...) "An Interloper! Who's this? He's barging in on a Genre title fight, and what's that he's carrying?"
(Close up on the box of books) Revealing covers for Mills & Boon Romance Knock-Offs, and a tattered copy of a 1940s out-of-print Western.
(The Interloper, Shouts...) "This is my Genre - get out of the way!"
(Calls...) "What? ... Oh my goodness, he shouldn't have tried that, now the Champ's riled. He's on the move ... Awww! That's gotta hurt. The champ has just opened a big can of whoop-ass on that guy ... he's flying through the air ... still flying and that's it - right out of the stadium."
(Panning shot of the crowd) The crowd cheers wildly. The mascot backflips on the sidelines.
(Calls...) "Well, that's one for the history books. Probably the best example of a genre defense move in living memory. Can anyone defeat the KO King? I think not!"
-:) Excellently put to life! Hope J.J. doesn’t mind starring in title defense fights :)
Nik wrote: "-:) Excellently put to life! Hope J.J. doesn’t mind starring in title defense fights :)"I hope not...
ROFLBut seriously, people are dumping things in the comics categories that don't belong...And where Amazon owns Comixology and is themselves trying to use those categories to push Comixology titles, I would think they would jump at the chance to remove all the children's books and romance books that authors try to slip in just to make sure their cash cows get the added exposure...
Like seagulls around a dropped packet of french fries...
Instead of dropping out how about trying something else. Yesterday I posted my first video chat explaining how I became an author, interviewed by my wonderful granddaughter Emily aged 12. To finish I read a short portion of my latest book called Starting Afresh. So far it has had over 800 hits and very positive reviews. I can't watch myself but think it is a good way to try to get known. Here is the link https://www.facebook.com/anne.attias....
Adrian wrote: "Publishing used to be about discovery but now it's only about the dollars - and that has become a self defeating approach because without the new voices replenishing the industry the publishers are getting boring and therefore selling fewer books...."Even the most artistic houses were about making money. They could not exist otherwise. I do agree that many love books, but they are there to turn a profit unless it was labor of love on a given book.
As the non-writer of the group. I have no idea how many come and go percentage wise. I do think many drop out for their reasons. Yet, I do not see this a totally bad thing. I see the whole thing as a winnowing process and the truly talented or tough will keep going and a truly lucky few will make money.
Personally, it seems to me if you quit, you must not love the work enough. I see writing as much as an art as painting. You have to suffer for your art. I know this because I am married to an actress and that is constantly full of rejection. Not everyone is cut out to be one.
I find it wild that the industry is bigger than ever and yet it seems everyone is starving. I personally think there are more making money now that in the past, but there lots more potential authors trying to make money too. It is easier than ever to publish and harder to be heard. It is a sea of voices saying look at me and me the reader has to figure what to read. Being free does not help me choose because there are lots of free reads.
I do get solicited quite a bit because I read and review. Yet, even I have drawn lines because there is so much out there.
Here is my suggestion that has worked on me to read a book. I have had more than one author reach out to me and ask me if I was interested. They noted that I have read a book in the same vein as theirs. They give a brief description and leave it to me to reach back. It has worked more than once, but, I only read paper because I am a Luddite. I usually reply with interest and my request for paper. More often than it I am given a paper copy. If they cannot or refuse we end on a polite bit of good luck and I certainly understand why you cannot.
Unless there are algorithms that can find my interests out there for the independent authors, it sounds like lots of work. Except it may not be as daunting and it sounds. I am assuming your work falls into areas that other works may relate. Think of Star Trek and Star Wars. You like one and someone may assume you may like the other also. I think it is the personal reach out as compared to the mass email that works.
Pretty much agree with all that. You sound like a good chap Papaphilly.
Understandable, as many come with high expectations, frustrated soon after the publishing..
So what's the drop out rate in your opinion/observations?