Underground Knowledge — A discussion group discussion
This topic is about
The Damned Balkans
MISCELLANEOUS TOPICS
>
What really happened in Yugoslavia?
date
newest »
newest »
The last unfortunate event I can recall (and I admit to forgetting these disasters) involving Central America was the matches against Mexico. We lost that, but not thrashed, and Mexico beats a fair number of others :-)
Ian wrote: "The last unfortunate event I can recall (and I admit to forgetting these disasters) involving Central America was the matches against Mexico. We lost that, but not thrashed, and Mexico beats a fair..."
There was also that time in 82 against Scotland. :)
Mexico have produced some good players. Remember Hugo Sanchez?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhcBa...
There was also that time in 82 against Scotland. :)
Mexico have produced some good players. Remember Hugo Sanchez?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhcBa...
Mexico is usually very strong. The problem here was (and this applies to Sth America too) in the qualifiers the top players stay in Europe to make money, and only come home if a win is needed. There was one time it looked as if we would have to beat Argentina to qualify. In the end we didn't, but the 5th Sth American team is usually pretty strong.
Ian wrote: "Mexico is usually very strong. The problem here was (and this applies to Sth America too) in the qualifiers the top players stay in Europe to make money, and only come home if a win is needed. Ther..."
A reserve Argentina team is usually formidable anyway. One of the problems I have with the modern World Cup is that is lacks the individuals and flair of past players, due to these top players going to Europe and being immured in strategy and tactics to the detriment of their individuality.
One of the most creative players I ever seen in my life was Colombian Carlos Valdermma. He easily excelled at the top level but couldn't in Europe at club level, I guess due to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srf6Q...
A reserve Argentina team is usually formidable anyway. One of the problems I have with the modern World Cup is that is lacks the individuals and flair of past players, due to these top players going to Europe and being immured in strategy and tactics to the detriment of their individuality.
One of the most creative players I ever seen in my life was Colombian Carlos Valdermma. He easily excelled at the top level but couldn't in Europe at club level, I guess due to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srf6Q...
They talk about Messi and Ronaldo, but for me it's all about performing at the World Cup. The last true legendary player I saw was Zidane.
Since him and 98, I haven't seen anyone close with that kinda creativity or 'game changing' aura he had.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCShr...
Since him and 98, I haven't seen anyone close with that kinda creativity or 'game changing' aura he had.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCShr...
Getting this thread back on track (kind of)...What about those Scottish rugby players (Iain and Ian)? Are they hopeless or are they bloody hopeless??
I do like their national anthem though. One of the greats...just behind the Welsh anthem... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM4mI...
If there's a greater anthem than that one I'd love to hear it. And yes I've heard the Irish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2rRz... and French https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9J6r... anthems which have to be up there as well.
Lance wrote: "Getting this thread back on track (kind of)...
What about those Scottish rugby players (Iain and Ian)? Are they hopeless or are they bloody hopeless??
I do like their national anthem though. One ..."
"What about those Scottish rugby players (Iain and Ian)? Are they hopeless or are they bloody hopeless??"
Lance I know nowt about about rugby let alone Scottish International rugby so not gonna embarrass myself trying to discuss that, but I know enough not to try and argue with a Kiwi there.
In fact, I could tell you more about the 'All Blacks' than I could my own International team. And my knowledge is as limited as to only knowing one player called Jonah Lomu!!!
To be honest, it's not a sport I have much interest in.
What about those Scottish rugby players (Iain and Ian)? Are they hopeless or are they bloody hopeless??
I do like their national anthem though. One ..."
"What about those Scottish rugby players (Iain and Ian)? Are they hopeless or are they bloody hopeless??"
Lance I know nowt about about rugby let alone Scottish International rugby so not gonna embarrass myself trying to discuss that, but I know enough not to try and argue with a Kiwi there.
In fact, I could tell you more about the 'All Blacks' than I could my own International team. And my knowledge is as limited as to only knowing one player called Jonah Lomu!!!
To be honest, it's not a sport I have much interest in.
Lance wrote: "Getting this thread back on track (kind of)...
What about those Scottish rugby players (Iain and Ian)? Are they hopeless or are they bloody hopeless??
I do like their national anthem though. One ..."
German one is pretty good when listening at World Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hava_...
PS: I had a feeling to bet on that team from the start to win the 2014 world cup and never put it on. Another opportunity wasted.
What about those Scottish rugby players (Iain and Ian)? Are they hopeless or are they bloody hopeless??
I do like their national anthem though. One ..."
German one is pretty good when listening at World Cup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hava_...
PS: I had a feeling to bet on that team from the start to win the 2014 world cup and never put it on. Another opportunity wasted.
Iain wrote: "Lance wrote: "Getting this thread back on track (kind of)...What about those Scottish rugby players (Iain and Ian)? Are they hopeless or are they bloody hopeless??
I do like their national anthe..."
Pity it was written by what we might call an Austrian :-)
As for rugby I can see it is a sport that Iain has little interest, unless he is baiting me. Anyway, for others, Lomu has died, so that knowledge is not exactly timely :-)
Baiting you?Gimme a bit of credit in savvy. Lol. :)
Seriously, I have no real interest.
My ol man and grandad did(my dad even watched Aussie Rules), but I never took to it for some reason.
Lomu I remember because he was an exceptional athlete and transcended the sport. I ever knew he died either. RIP.
Seriously, I have no real interest.
My ol man and grandad did(my dad even watched Aussie Rules), but I never took to it for some reason.
Lomu I remember because he was an exceptional athlete and transcended the sport. I ever knew he died either. RIP.
Yugoslavia disintegrated. Strong religious differences between the various parts.
Ian wrote: "Yugoslavia disintegrated. Strong religious differences between the various parts."Those were always there in the former Yugoslavia tho. And then we have various other countries (e.g. Turkey, the Philippines etc) with strong religious differences also...
So is it possible outside forces played a part and wanted Yugoslavia to disintegrate?
How much of what goes on within nations is organic?
Yes, but there was a certain guy called Tito who had very little tolerance for separatists, and since many of the separatists had been Nazi sympathisers/collaborators, and Tito had led a resistance, and hence had a lot of people who were prepared to do what the boss wanted and had a lot of suppressed revenge, who was going to stand up and promote separatism? However, Tito failed to leave a successor, and his hard-line supporters got old, and . . . well, Yugoslavia fell to pieces, as the religious differences provided the rallying points.
James wrote: "Tito's Last Secret https://www.foreignaffairs.com/review...How Did He Keep the Yugoslavs Together?"
Tito was a master statesman and politician, as well as a brilliant military leader.
In WWI he was in the Austrian army, and was wounded and captured in the Carpathians when Russian cavalry overran his trench. He was working on the Russian railways at the time of the revolution, and travelled to St Petersburg to be part of the action. He was arrested again, but escaped and joined the Red Army in Siberia. In 1920 he returned to the new country of Yugoslavia, a committed revolutionary. After being imprisoned as a Yugoslav Communist Party (KPJ) activist, he went underground when he was released in 1934. After several trips abroad, including to Vienna, Paris, and Moscow, in 1938 he became head of the KPJ. After Hitler invaded Yugoslavia in 1941, Tito travelled to Belgrade and began preparations for a guerrilla war, which started 2 months later when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union.
Iain wrote: "James wrote: "In this instance, I'm a fake Aussie as AU has had better results.Mate, I am just pulling your leg - I don't give a flying about football.
But I do recall Yugoslavia were really go..."
One of the iconic moments of the break-up of Yugoslavia was match between Dinamo Zagreb and Red Star Belgrade on 13 May 1990. The match was stopped due to fighting between fans, and the international media was full of a photo of a Dinamo player kicking a riot policeman.
John wrote: "James wrote: "Tito's Last Secret https://www.foreignaffairs.com/review...How Did He Keep the Yugoslavs Together?"
Tito was a master statesman and politician..."
In 1941, there was a spontaneous uprising by Serbs against the terror visited against them by the new fascist regime in Croatia and Bosnia. Most of them went on to join Tito's Partisans as the only vehicle for fighting the fascists (the official Serbian opposition, the Četniks, collaborated with the Wehrmacht as they saw Tito as the real threat to the prewar regime). Tito established the only free territory in occupied Europe, the Bihać Republic in Bosnia. With assistance from the British, as portrayed in Eastern Approaches, Tito defeated the occupiers as well as homemade fascists - independently from the Red Army, who only arrived in time for the last action of the war, the battle of Belgrade.
Stalin was unhappy with Tito's independent policies after the war, and in 1948, after giving him an ultimatum, Yugoslavia was expelled from the Comintern. Tito renewed his friendships in the west (strained after his temporary occupation of Trieste, and his support for Communist guerillas in Greece), and successfully pursued a third way, the Non-Aligned Movement, playing off NATO and the Warsaw Pact against each other. Gorbačev visited Yugoslavia for a week in 1988 and buried the hatchet.
Tito's funeral in 1980 was the largest ever recorded, attended by four kings, 31 presidents, and 22 prime ministers, including Margaret Thatcher, Leonid Brežnev, Walter Mondale (US vice president) and Yasser Arafat.
Ian wrote: "Yes, but there was a certain guy called Tito who had very little tolerance for separatists, and since many of the separatists had been Nazi sympathisers/collaborators, and Tito had led a resistance..."It didn't have to be that way. Religious differences did not spontaneously become rallying points. Nationalism was deliberately used by Milosevic and Tudjman, as well as others, as a means to create the conditions in which the former could promote his own career, and the other achieve his ambition as a historian, namely to be the first ever president of Croatia. Neither cared how many and how much ordinary people would suffer as a direct result.
John wrote: "It didn't have to be that way. Religious differences did not spontaneously become rallying points. Nationalism was deliberately used by Milosevic and Tudjman, as well as others, as a means to create the conditions in which the former could promote his own career, and the other achieve his ambition as a historian, namely to be the first ever president of Croatia. Neither cared how many and how much ordinary people would suffer as a direct result...."That's what I figured, John.
There's always a weakness or danger point in a country that can be exploited. But some countries stay unified and others mysteriously break up.
And you have to wonder if it was all from within the former Yugoslavia...Or whether the likes of Milosevic and Tudjman were financed or otherwise supported by outside interests...Or viewed as "useful idiots" that were ALLOWED to carry out their own cause/bloodshed that suited international interests somehow...
Rotating federal president Raif Dizdarević at the critical time 1988-1989 later said:“That was the flaw in our efforts at the time: we failed to understand, or perhaps we underestimated, the need in a new period of Yugoslav history for new and deeper concepts for the development of society and the system; new, bold breakthroughs into new processes and new solutions; to see and make use of what was new in global developments and changes. Unfortunately, a spirit of practical pragmatism dominated social affairs”
He failed to prevent nationalism in Serbia from taking over the structures that made the federation work. However, he only got the job when Bosnia's president, Hamdijz Pozderac, was disgraced in the Agrokomerc affair. One of Yugoslavia's top businesses, a food producer that had developed from nothing in the NW Bosnian Borders, was destroyed by Sarajevo's political elite, causing political and economic upheaval in Bosnia and more widely within Yugoslavia. This conflict between Sarajevo and the Bosnian Borders resurfaced in the war, as the little-known intra-Muslim war. If Pozderac had become president, he may have been able to deal with Milosevic more effectively.
Then again, former Yugoslav EU bureaucrat Mihailo Crnobrnja later wrote “Yugoslavia did away with itself because it was unable to generate the internal momentum for democratic change at the right time”.
But external forces were as important as domestic players as they determined who would be successful. Tudjman received financial support from the diaspora in North America, and invested time and money in lobbying the White House. He also won Helmut Kohl's support - and Germany unilaterally recognised Croatian (and Slovenian) independence even as the EU was attempting to negotiate a peaceful end game to the crisis, in what they called "the hour of Europe".
John wrote: "Rotating federal president Raif Dizdarević at the critical time 1988-1989 later said:“That was the flaw in our efforts at the time: we failed to understand, or perhaps we underes..."
In my view, understanding the intra-Muslim war is the key to understanding the war in the former Yugoslavia. Perception was and is everything, both for the western media, and for domestic attitudes.
If the conflict was or is described as the Yugoslav Civil War, then the observer (or indeed the participant) might wonder why they were fighting at all. But if we are told that the population of Croatia is made up of Serbs and Croats, rather than Yugoslavs, then suddenly the observer is presented with a facile logic. And if a third religious group is added in Bosnia, then he or she might well wonder why they didn't go to war earlier. But why would Bosnian Muslims go to war against each other, in the middle of the wider war? For the same reason that any other Yugoslavs did - they were divided by their leaders into two camps, and then told the other camp were "traitors", "extremists" etc. And for that very reason, the losing side has been completely discredited by the Bosnian and Croatian governments ever since the war, and the story of the war within the war suppressed and written over.
As Bahrudin, a 19-year-old Bosnian conscript told a news crew in Slovenia in 1991: “As far as I get it, they like want to secede, and we’re like stopping them”. He said that four conscripts had been killed already, and all they wanted to do was return to their barracks in Karlovac. He also took the opportunity to ask the novinar (“journalist”) interviewing him to appeal to everyone to put a stop to what was happening. His appeal fell on deaf ears (he ultimately survived the war, but was killed in a saobraćajna, “RTA”, between Zadar and Rijeka in 1998).
People wanting to be Presidents/leaders is an only too common problem. Leaders not caring about anyone except those supporting them, and not caring much about them either, is yet another problem we have seen more than once. The EU and US supporting breakup probably ensured it would happen; the interesting question then becomes, who benefitted from the breakup?
Ian wrote: "People wanting to be Presidents/leaders is an only too common problem. Leaders not caring about anyone except those supporting them, and not caring much about them either, is yet another problem we..."Follow the money.
The former Yugoslav republics are now run by the generation of rich kids whose parents' influence meant they didn't have to fight in the war (the exception is Kosovo, which is still run by the NATO-backed terrorists/freedom fights).
Foreign investors (mainly from the EU, Russia and the Middle East) have bought up and stripped huge swathes of the economy, and ordinary people are faced with the choice of living as squatters in their own homes, or emigrating to be cheap labour abroad.
John wrote: "Ian wrote: "People wanting to be Presidents/leaders is an only too common problem. Leaders not caring about anyone except those supporting them, and not caring much about them either, is yet anothe..."
How much is China in there John?
I heard there was a fire-sale in Eastern Europe and the Balkans around about 2008 - 2015, about the time of aftermath of the last crash and when the Euro started to show cracks.
Some monster amounts of money was laid down . . . .
How much is China in there John?
I heard there was a fire-sale in Eastern Europe and the Balkans around about 2008 - 2015, about the time of aftermath of the last crash and when the Euro started to show cracks.
Some monster amounts of money was laid down . . . .
Iain wrote: "John wrote: "Ian wrote: "People wanting to be Presidents/leaders is an only too common problem. Leaders not caring about anyone except those supporting them, and not caring much about them either, ..."Yes, I forgot about that. I don't know the numbers but it's big. Now there is even Chinese police in Serbia, to assist Chinese "tourists". Before 1990, foreigners couldn't own property in Yugoslavia.
John wrote: "Iain wrote: "John wrote: "Ian wrote: "People wanting to be Presidents/leaders is an only too common problem. Leaders not caring about anyone except those supporting them, and not caring much about ..."
And I thought Scottish / English ex-pats in Australia reporting back to the SS were bad enough. The Chinese have a true designated police force in place . . . . Jesus.
And I thought Scottish / English ex-pats in Australia reporting back to the SS were bad enough. The Chinese have a true designated police force in place . . . . Jesus.
John wrote: "Iain wrote: "John wrote: "Ian wrote: "People wanting to be Presidents/leaders is an only too common problem. Leaders not caring about anyone except those supporting them, and not caring much about ..."
Was it possible to get around that loophole, though? Using friends? Or was it set in stone that no foreigner could own property, even if it was a will?
Was it possible to get around that loophole, though? Using friends? Or was it set in stone that no foreigner could own property, even if it was a will?
Iain wrote: "John wrote: "Iain wrote: "John wrote: "Ian wrote: "People wanting to be Presidents/leaders is an only too common problem. Leaders not caring about anyone except those supporting them, and not carin..."In the 1960s, Tito waived the ban so that Scottish war hero Fitzroy Maclean could buy a villa on the island of Korčula. Otherwise it was impossible.
There you go, Iain. A Scottish-Yugo link...Let you mind run wild!!
James wrote: "There you go, Iain.
A Scottish-Yugo link...Let you mind run wild!!"
That's not the Scottish - Yugo link I was thinking of though . . . . this is more leading the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTCEW...
That's what can happens if you let your mind run wild or 'think outside the box' or not be 'part o tha gang'
A Scottish-Yugo link...Let you mind run wild!!"
That's not the Scottish - Yugo link I was thinking of though . . . . this is more leading the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTCEW...
That's what can happens if you let your mind run wild or 'think outside the box' or not be 'part o tha gang'
Underground Knowledge — A discussion group
Books mentioned in this topic
Eastern Approaches (other topics)Yugoslavia: Peace, War, and Dissolution (other topics)
The Damned Balkans: A Refugee Road Trip (other topics)
The Damned Balkans: A Refugee Road Trip (other topics)
The Damned Balkans: A Refugee Road Trip (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Raif Dizdarević (other topics)Raif Dizdarević (other topics)
Mihailo Crnobrnja (other topics)
Noam Chomsky (other topics)
That's true. We do have a league. But it's a two-horse race for the most part.
"when it comes to qualifying, the key problem is not beating Tonga - it is beating a Sth or central American country that usually progresses on past the first round."
True, Guatemala or El Salvador is a bit of a challenge for you boys. :D