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What really happened in Yugoslavia?
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John
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Jul 22, 2017 10:28AM
Was it really an inevitable tribal conflict, a postscript to WWII? Or was it simply a textbook case of divide and rule, in which local and international power brokers and opportunists waged war against the Yugoslav people?
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Your book The Damned Balkans: A Refugee Road Trip looks informative on what happened to Yugoslavia, John. Especially as you were there.Got some ideas on what happened to Kosovo at least...
Think it may have related to illegal drug trade (heroin supply routes) on some level, as per this post:
Drug wars > The Kosovo War https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
And this thread mentions the Balkans/Kosovo drug routes:
Drug wars > The heroin connection https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Whiteout: The CIA,Drugs and the Press mentioned the drug connection in the Kosovo and/or the earlier Balkan wars in the 90s in Yugoslavia, as well, from memory.
p.s. I knew a (Serbian/Yugoslavian) air traffic controller who worked in Belgrade Airport in the late 80s and very early 90s (before the wars started). She told me there were US AirForce intelligence personnel working for a period at the airport and they told her (off the record) that there would soon be a civil war in Yugoslavia. She said they said it with total certainty. She interpreted their statements to mean Western interests or intelligence agencies engineered the conflict by arming all sides (Serbs, Croats, Bosnians and funded extremists). However, admittedly it could have also been because the US intel. agencies had intelligence to show the coming conflict was reaching fever pitch and a civil war was not preventable.
James wrote: "Your book The Damned Balkans: A Refugee Road Trip looks informative on what happened to Yugoslavia, John. Especially as you were there.Got some ideas on what happened to Kosovo at..."
Organised crime was certainly one of the main drivers of the war, and in Kosovo it was the most blatant. That's interesting re Belgrade airport.
I would really lke to see your perspective on things that happened here, especially as I was very young when the war happened and fairly protected living in Zagreb. I have only one complaint. I work as a local guide for Zagreb and regularly hear my U.S. guests calling the war here a civil war. It wasn't. It's very important to all of us here to know the difference. What kind of information were you given by your media to come to that conclusion (an honest inquiry and not sarcasm)? Thank you!
Samanta wrote: "I would really lke to see your perspective on things that happened here, especially as I was very young when the war happened and fairly protected living in Zagreb. I have only one complaint. I wor..."Thanks for raising a very complex and important point. This is how this issue is summarised in The Damned Balkans: A Refugee Road Trip:
'The official name for the war in Croatia is “domovinski rat” (“war of independence”). In Bosnia it is referred to officially as the “agresija protiv Republike BiH” (“aggression against Bosnia”), and in Serbia the two acts of the war are the “rat u bivšoj SFRJ” (“war in the former Yugoslavia”) and “albanski terorizam/NATO agresija” (“Albanian terrorism/NATO aggression”) respectively, although across the board, most people simply refer to it as the “rat” (“war”). The Albanians call it “lufta e Kosovës” (“the Kosovo war”), while for the Romanies, “O maripe či anel khanikaske lačipe” (“war is hell”).'
My conclusions come from living and working in the former Yugoslavia for many years, during the war and afterwards. They also come from extensive reading of local and international literature. Was it a civil war?
'According to George Orwell, the Spanish Civil War was in essence a revolution; and the two main protagonists were both determined to prevent the revolution from succeeding. While Franco, supported by Hitler, sought to re-introduce feudalism, the government, supported almost exclusively by Stalin, wanted to maintain liberal democracy: the objectives of the communist party were not to foment revolution abroad, but to implement Soviet foreign policy, which was conditioned by Stalin's complex relationship with Hitler. This was carefully concealed by the English press, “in order to prevent people from grasping the real nature of the struggle”. My father later told me that but for the establishment propaganda, he would have gone to fight in Spain himself, as would no doubt many others. Blair would have sent them all to Guantánamo.'
Samanta wrote: ". I work as a local guide for Zagreb and regularly hear my U.S. guests calling the war here a civil war. It wasn't. It's very important to all of us here to know the difference...."Thanks for the correction, Samanta. Will keep that in mind in future.
Best,
James
James wrote: "Your book The Damned Balkans: A Refugee Road Trip looks informative on what happened to Yugoslavia, John. Especially as you were there.Got some ideas on what happened to Kosovo at..."
It's certainly the case that the US put an end to the war in Bosnia and Croatia after the EU and the UN failed to do so, not only by insisting on the use of NATO air power, but also by arming and training the Bosnian and Croatian armies in breach of the arms embargo. This led directly to the deployment of NATO independent of the UN in Kosovo, which put an end to the conflict there. But at what cost?
Even if this article is not the complete truth, there are some really interesting quotes in it, I felt...Engineering War in Bosnia https://www.mediamonitors.net/perspec...
James wrote: "Even if this article is not the complete truth, there are some really interesting quotes in it, I felt...Engineering War in Bosnia https://www.mediamonitors.net/perspec......"
Thanks
James wrote: "Even if this article is not the complete truth, there are some really interesting quotes in it, I felt...Engineering War in Bosnia https://www.mediamonitors.net/perspec......"
Irrespective of how truthful it is in some details, I believe this truly shows that the US seldom has a long-term policy - decisions are made effectively "on the spot", and become contradictory. Perhaps the one exception to that is that the US likes to sell arms.
Ian wrote: "James wrote: "Even if this article is not the complete truth, there are some really interesting quotes in it, I felt...Engineering War in Bosnia https://www.mediamonitors.net/perspec......"
I agree with that. Strategies often change from one administration to the next, and policies change from one crisis to the next.
Propaganda in the War on Yugoslavia https://www.globalresearch.ca/propaga...The war on Yugoslavia in the 1990s was a classic imperial war to reorder South Eastern Europe. To achieve its goals, the US even deployed the “jihadist” mercenaries with which it had previously fought the USSR in Afghanistan and which it would later call Al Qaeda.
The political and media propaganda regarding the Yugoslavia war has been well researched. Interestingly, however, numerous media outlets and commentators are still trying to hold on to the official portrayal of the time, in contrast to the later war in Iraq, for example.
There may be various reasons for this. On the one hand, the propaganda in question dates back to the early days of the Internet and is therefore generally less well known to the public. On the other hand, the implications especially for Europe are particularly far-reaching in this case.
From today’s perspective, it is of course a trivial statement that certain media supported NATO’s war on Yugoslavia, but at the time even critics believed in a media „failure“, especially since the decisive foreign policy media structures were not yet broadly known.
The following sections provide an overview of the most important propaganda cases of the Yugoslavia war as well as references to further literature and documentation.
1. The Serbian “Death Camp” (1992)
One of the most notorious propaganda cases of the Yugoslavia war is the alleged Serbian death camp of Trnopolje in Bosnia. The story began in August 1992, when three British journalists visited a refugee camp whose inmates stressed that they were being treated very well (see below).
The journalists, however, went to a fenced off transformer area right next to the refugee camp and filmed the men through a barbed wire fence, making it appear as if the men were imprisoned. The journalists then asked a man emaciated from illness or war-related malnutrition to take off his tee.
The resulting photograph – carefully cut to size – landed on the front pages of most Western media as „proof“ of Serbian „death camps“, which in turn served as justification for NATO’s subsequent intervention in Bosnia, starting with a no-fly zone.
The German journalist who exposed the Trnopolje death camp deception in 1997 got sued by the British journalists for libel and eventually lost the case because he coulnd’t prove their intent.
The head of an American PR agency that had spread the false death camp reports later explained: „We are professionals. We had a job to do and we did it. We are not paid to be moral.“
FULL ARTICLE HERE: https://www.globalresearch.ca/propaga...
James wrote: "Propaganda in the War on Yugoslavia https://www.globalresearch.ca/propaga...
The war on Yugoslavia in the 1990s was a classic imperial war to reorder South Eastern Europe. T..."
Putting a nail in the coffin of the remnants of the former Soviet Union, not to mention resources.
You wonder how Tito managed to hold that country together in the way he did(force aside)?
On a lighter note, the country's football team were tipped to win the 94 World cup. They might have ran laps around everyone else with the like of Dragan Stojković
. . . . what could have been . . . .
There was no friends in that war. From what I read it was horrible.
The war on Yugoslavia in the 1990s was a classic imperial war to reorder South Eastern Europe. T..."
Putting a nail in the coffin of the remnants of the former Soviet Union, not to mention resources.
You wonder how Tito managed to hold that country together in the way he did(force aside)?
On a lighter note, the country's football team were tipped to win the 94 World cup. They might have ran laps around everyone else with the like of Dragan Stojković
. . . . what could have been . . . .
There was no friends in that war. From what I read it was horrible.
Iain wrote: "On a lighter note, the country's football team were tipped to win the 94 World cup. ..."That makes MI6 the prime suspect!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re4aD...
James wrote: "Iain wrote: "On a lighter note, the country's football team were tipped to win the 94 World cup. ..."
That makes MI6 the prime suspect!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re4aD..."
They would have still had Romania to contend with.
(I was in Spain during that World Cup. Happy days!!!)
PS: one of the best football games I've seen. Hagi was a genius.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3dtp...
That makes MI6 the prime suspect!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Re4aD..."
They would have still had Romania to contend with.
(I was in Spain during that World Cup. Happy days!!!)
PS: one of the best football games I've seen. Hagi was a genius.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3dtp...
The whole point was to find a way to ensure that the full weakening of Russia under Yeltsin was clear to all concerned, the purpose being to clear the way for US business profits, not in Kosovo, of course, but elsewhere. If Russia were about as useful as a wet used bus ticket, and Europe were toeing the line, everyone should fall in behind Washington, or at least that is what some of those there thought. It was particularly helpful to show Russia's weakness to promote US arms sales.
Ian wrote: "The whole point was to find a way to ensure that the full weakening of Russia under Yeltsin was clear to all concerned, the purpose being to clear the way for US business profits, not in Kosovo, of..."
That region had / has an abundance of coal and so on.
There's also an interesting Wikileaks disclosure about the region and the IMF to consider too . . . .
https://balkaninsight.com/2012/03/02/...
That region had / has an abundance of coal and so on.
There's also an interesting Wikileaks disclosure about the region and the IMF to consider too . . . .
https://balkaninsight.com/2012/03/02/...
James wrote: "Propaganda in the War on Yugoslavia https://www.globalresearch.ca/propaga...The war on Yugoslavia in the 1990s was a classic imperial war to reorder South Eastern Europe. T..."
I've read about that before, most notably in Noam Chomsky's book Yugoslavia: Peace, War, and Dissolution, which among other things downplays the significance of the murder of 8,000 POWs. Whether it is true or not, only those directly involved can say.
But what is true, is that thousands of "POWs" (often just men of military age of the wrong religious background, who had not had the prescience to clear out of their homes when they could), languished for months or years in unsuitable premises, often farm buildings, factories, or school sports halls, with few or no sanitary facilities, little and poor quality food, and restricted or no visits from family. Not to mention being subject to regular and sometimes fatal violence. A visit and registration by ICRC generally led to an improvement in conditions, and safety.
It is also true that, comparatively, more war crimes have been reported and prosecuted concerning those detained by Karadzic's forces in Bosnia, than against forces nominally loyal to Mate Boban, his Croat counterpart; and that the fewest accusations of war crimes have been levelled at Izetbegovic's regime. That corresponds not only to the military superiority of the first two (with direct support from Belgrade and Zagreb respectively), but also to the fact that Muslim nationalism was far less virulent than Serb and Croat nationalism. The influx of foreign fighters from the Middle East, who were granted Bosnian citizenship at the end of the war, redressed this moral imbalance to a certain extent.
Ian wrote: "The whole point was to find a way to ensure that the full weakening of Russia under Yeltsin was clear to all concerned, the purpose being to clear the way for US business profits, not in Kosovo, of..."I would add to that, clearing away a Balkan federation that had been punching above its weight for decades, and could only represent an obstacle to NATO and EU ambitions.
I agree, John, there could also be propaganda from those who wish to downplay the atrocities in Yugoslavia. Like Holocaust deniers.
A more modern equivalent of Holocaust deniers, I meant
What you say about a Balkan federation punching above its weight is a good point. If Yugoslavia had remained in tact, what do you think would have happened?
James wrote: "What you say about a Balkan federation punching above its weight is a good point. If Yugoslavia had remained in tact, what do you think would have happened?"Hard to say. The federal leadership proved to be too ineffectual to be able to deal with the nationalism that emerged from the economic crisis in the 1980s. But what is certain is that all the successor states of the once-influential and respected Yugoslavia are all struggling to subsist 25 years after independence. For example, every year more people are leaving Croatia than left during the entire war; the situation is similar in Serbia, and even worse in Bosnia. Now even Romania and Albania are overtaking them in terms of prosperity and stability. The same political elites are in charge, and win election after election by playing the nationalist card, even though their track record on the economy is diabolical.
Maybe Nicola Sturgeon should take note? nationalism has its price.
Ian wrote: "Maybe Nicola Sturgeon should take note? nationalism has its price."I would say it's more a case of Scottish nationalism is an equal and opposite reaction to English nationalism, ie Brexit. Just as Tuđman's HDZ party (still in power) was an equal and opposite reaction to Milošević.
Sturgeon wanted Scottish independence long before Brexit, and in any case, irrespective of why they want it, the price will be the same.
Jovan wrote: "Ian wrote: "Maybe Nicola Sturgeon should take note? nationalism has its price."
I would say it's more a case of Scottish nationalism is an equal and opposite reaction to English nationalism, ie Br..."
Are you suggesting 38% of the Scottish vote for Brexit was done under the auspice of promoting English nationalism?
People up here voted for various reason to leave, some economic and some including on the grounds of Political Union not working as they see very little influence to govern as part of a 500 million monolith ran from a centralized Brussells, and not due to the agitprop and tabloid hysteria that was whipped up.
How much influence do you see a nation of 5-million having?
Interestingly, that 38% is just 8% shy of the 46% who voted for Scottish Independence, but that pool of voters from that figure isn't afforded a similar respect.
We're being told that the over a third and nearly half of Scottish votes to leave is 'overwhelming' evidence Scotland wants to stay in the EU. When it isn't.
Also take into account that there was a 67% turnout for that vote.
Nobody seems to be pointing out the obvious with the math . . . . Tweets don't reflect what's happening over here . . . .
Welcome to the making of the New Republic of Scotistan. Gotta be 'part o tha gang' if you want to be heard or even get on in life . . . .
Comparisons with Yugoslavia are wide of the mark.
I would say it's more a case of Scottish nationalism is an equal and opposite reaction to English nationalism, ie Br..."
Are you suggesting 38% of the Scottish vote for Brexit was done under the auspice of promoting English nationalism?
People up here voted for various reason to leave, some economic and some including on the grounds of Political Union not working as they see very little influence to govern as part of a 500 million monolith ran from a centralized Brussells, and not due to the agitprop and tabloid hysteria that was whipped up.
How much influence do you see a nation of 5-million having?
Interestingly, that 38% is just 8% shy of the 46% who voted for Scottish Independence, but that pool of voters from that figure isn't afforded a similar respect.
We're being told that the over a third and nearly half of Scottish votes to leave is 'overwhelming' evidence Scotland wants to stay in the EU. When it isn't.
Also take into account that there was a 67% turnout for that vote.
Nobody seems to be pointing out the obvious with the math . . . . Tweets don't reflect what's happening over here . . . .
Welcome to the making of the New Republic of Scotistan. Gotta be 'part o tha gang' if you want to be heard or even get on in life . . . .
Comparisons with Yugoslavia are wide of the mark.
Ian wrote: "Sturgeon wanted Scottish independence long before Brexit, and in any case, irrespective of why they want it, the price will be the same."
Didn't want to be part of the EU in 2014, though.
Didn't want to be part of the EU in 2014, though.
Yugoslavia woulda always beat Scotland in football tho, Iain...
James wrote: "Yugoslavia woulda always beat Scotland in football tho, Iain..."
No so sure about that.
What about the 60s and 70s Scottish teams? The old school team that beat England just after they won the 66 World Cup or that 70s team that beat one of the best ever teams not to win it in Holland, in 78 . . . .
No so sure about that.
What about the 60s and 70s Scottish teams? The old school team that beat England just after they won the 66 World Cup or that 70s team that beat one of the best ever teams not to win it in Holland, in 78 . . . .
James wrote: "Yugoslavia woulda always beat Scotland in football tho, Iain..."
What about now though mate. Scotland vs Albania? Or Scotland vs Crotia?
What about now though mate. Scotland vs Albania? Or Scotland vs Crotia?
What's the furthest Scotland went in a world cup? Also I meant the more recent teams if Yugoslavia had remained a country
And how do Rangers and Celtic fans get along when Scotland plays at home?
James wrote: "What's the furthest Scotland went in a world cup? Also I meant the more recent teams if Yugoslavia had remained a country"
They've never went beyond the first round and lost out due to countries like Brazil, Soviet Union and Holland.
I dunno I don't follow football anymore, especially Scottish football for more reasons than one . . . .
Doesn't take a sage to work it out.
They've never went beyond the first round and lost out due to countries like Brazil, Soviet Union and Holland.
I dunno I don't follow football anymore, especially Scottish football for more reasons than one . . . .
Doesn't take a sage to work it out.
James wrote: "And how do Rangers and Celtic fans get along when Scotland plays at home?"
This country will always be factionalized deep-down; whether that be rich vs poor, postcode vs postcode, class vs class, conflict in religion and now political denomination.
This even extends to ex-pats funnily enough and some out your way.
It's a theater of errors.
Some Scots don't take it to extremes or care(like myself), some are legit in their support and for others the supposed solidarity is merely ceremonial or even opportunistic.
This country will always be factionalized deep-down; whether that be rich vs poor, postcode vs postcode, class vs class, conflict in religion and now political denomination.
This even extends to ex-pats funnily enough and some out your way.
It's a theater of errors.
Some Scots don't take it to extremes or care(like myself), some are legit in their support and for others the supposed solidarity is merely ceremonial or even opportunistic.
Iain wrote: "They've never went beyond the first round and lost out due to countries like Brazil, Soviet Union and Holland. ..."Sounds like one of the worst teams in history!
Mate, even Australia and (I think) NZ too have made it to the 2nd round in a cup...And we hardly even play football down here :)
James wrote: "Iain wrote: "They've never went beyond the first round and lost out due to countries like Brazil, Soviet Union and Holland. ..."
Sounds like one of the worst teams in history!
Mate, even Australia..."
Actually, no. If you look at the times we qualified and the amount of World cups we've been involved in, teams we beat and went out to and some of the groups we've been in, then it paints a different picture.
I mean it's easy for Australia and NZ to qualify if your playing Tonga. lol
Mate, you've qualified for only 5 world cups too. :)
Sounds like one of the worst teams in history!
Mate, even Australia..."
Actually, no. If you look at the times we qualified and the amount of World cups we've been involved in, teams we beat and went out to and some of the groups we've been in, then it paints a different picture.
I mean it's easy for Australia and NZ to qualify if your playing Tonga. lol
Mate, you've qualified for only 5 world cups too. :)
Until Scotland gets out of the group stage in a cup, HOLD MY BEER, Scottie!
Iain wrote: "James wrote: "Iain wrote: "They've never went beyond the first round and lost out due to countries like Brazil, Soviet Union and Holland. ..."
Sounds like one of the worst teams in history!
Mate, ..."
NZ have only qualified for 2 world cups :DD
Sounds like one of the worst teams in history!
Mate, ..."
NZ have only qualified for 2 world cups :DD
Iain wrote: "Iain wrote: "James wrote: "Iain wrote: "They've never went beyond the first round and lost out due to countries like Brazil, Soviet Union and Holland. ..."
Sounds like one of the worst teams in hi..."
And that's from 1970!!! Stick to rugby Kiwi!!! :D
Sounds like one of the worst teams in hi..."
And that's from 1970!!! Stick to rugby Kiwi!!! :D
In this instance, I'm a fake Aussie as AU has had better results.Mate, I am just pulling your leg - I don't give a flying about football.
But I do recall Yugoslavia were really good.
James wrote: "Until Scotland gets out of the group stage in a cup, HOLD MY BEER, Scottie!"
I am also hoping they get out of group stage as well, but not with football . . . . ;)
I am also hoping they get out of group stage as well, but not with football . . . . ;)
James wrote: "In this instance, I'm a fake Aussie as AU has had better results.
Mate, I am just pulling your leg - I don't give a flying about football.
But I do recall Yugoslavia were really good."
Neither do I mate and just jesting with ya too. Couldn't care less for football or who supports who. Only enjoyed it when Man Utd were playing under Ferguson, after that didn't really bother except if it was / is the World Cup.
Yugoslavia were one of the favorites to win 94, but war broke out. Still, Crotia had a very good side and produced players like Suker.
Club teams like Red Star Belgrade were great as well . . . .
Anyway, sorry to have taken this thread off-track . . .
Mate, I am just pulling your leg - I don't give a flying about football.
But I do recall Yugoslavia were really good."
Neither do I mate and just jesting with ya too. Couldn't care less for football or who supports who. Only enjoyed it when Man Utd were playing under Ferguson, after that didn't really bother except if it was / is the World Cup.
Yugoslavia were one of the favorites to win 94, but war broke out. Still, Crotia had a very good side and produced players like Suker.
Club teams like Red Star Belgrade were great as well . . . .
Anyway, sorry to have taken this thread off-track . . .
Iain wrote: "James wrote: "Until Scotland gets out of the group stage in a cup, HOLD MY BEER, Scottie!"
I am also hoping they get out of group stage as well, but not with football . . . . ;)"
Talking of group staged . . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyENh...
I am also hoping they get out of group stage as well, but not with football . . . . ;)"
Talking of group staged . . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyENh...
James wrote: "What If Yugoslavia Reunited Today? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej1J0..."
It interesting though that most of Europe(including here) survived greater internecine conflict(s) by trying to hold itself together politically, economically and socially through the opportunism and ambition afforded in inter-marriages and relationships.
That artificial strategy never always worked out for the 'greater good', though . . . .
It interesting though that most of Europe(including here) survived greater internecine conflict(s) by trying to hold itself together politically, economically and socially through the opportunism and ambition afforded in inter-marriages and relationships.
That artificial strategy never always worked out for the 'greater good', though . . . .
Iain wrote: "James wrote: "What If Yugoslavia Reunited Today? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej1J0..."
It interesting though that most of Europe(including here) survived greater internecine conflict(s) by ..."
Scotland and England were pretty much up there via that artifice.
It interesting though that most of Europe(including here) survived greater internecine conflict(s) by ..."
Scotland and England were pretty much up there via that artifice.
A minor point about NZ and football - we don't have a domestic league of any particular professional status, and when it comes to qualifying, the key problem is not beating Tonga - it is beating a Sth or central American country that usually progresses on past the first round.
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Books mentioned in this topic
Eastern Approaches (other topics)Yugoslavia: Peace, War, and Dissolution (other topics)
The Damned Balkans: A Refugee Road Trip (other topics)
The Damned Balkans: A Refugee Road Trip (other topics)
The Damned Balkans: A Refugee Road Trip (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Raif Dizdarević (other topics)Raif Dizdarević (other topics)
Mihailo Crnobrnja (other topics)
Noam Chomsky (other topics)
