Vaginal Fantasy Book Club discussion
Group Feedback & Merch
>
Group Name and Trans* Inclusion
I think they've been clear multiple times that everyone, everywhere is welcome here, regardless of gender or sexuality, et cetera. And imo, I think the group name is more a reference to our four leading ladies than any of us here on the forums.
It seems like we've both drawn different messages from our own experiences in the group (which is of course totally okay!). I'm just speaking from my perspective, but to me it's always felt like the "everyone is welcome" notes are given as a follow-up to talking about how the show is focused on females; and also from my perspective, the name implies "female" = cisgender females. I know this was not in any way intentional, because our lovely hosts are all LGBTQ allies. I just felt that if this was my experience and I felt uncomfortable about it as a cis-woman, it could be very uncomfortable or hurtful in a trans* person's experience. And the solution would be simple: just to address it and explain if it's referencing the hosts (and make it very clear for anyone coming to the group), or address it further and make a positive change if it's not. There's just absolutely no reason not to clarify it either way; that way no one has to feel unwelcome or uncomfortable.
Sorry, mobile issues. Well, I've yet to hear any trans ladies say anything about it, which is good. I think the overall positivity here leads to the
Grrr, I hate this.It leads to the feeling of women are women, whether biologically or by choice. It's all good and everyone is welcome.
Well I'd never say it's a choice; you're either born into the right body or not. But my concern isn't just with those who identify as a trans woman. There are also folks who were assigned female at birth but identify otherwise (be it male or a non-binary gender). The name then appears to slap them with a "female" label, which is also never okay. Again, I know it's not intentional, but it just needs to be made clear. I hope I'm the first to be bothered by it or take it in this way, but I just think it's important to address it in case others have felt this way and not said anything. Or even just as a preventative measure, let's make it crystal clear that (besides in the scandalous scenes in our books lol) genitals don't play a part in this. And they *definitely* don't dictate a person's gender identity.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that these ladies are just arbitrarily choosing to be girls, it was just lack of better wording.
This is a book club started by 4 biological females for the purpose of talking about fantasy romance novels and it's been called Vaginal Fantasy from day one. They do a great job of making it fun and entertaining and welcoming to everyone, whether the participants have vaginas or not.I don't think it's very fair to join a group like this and then expect the founders to change the name of it to be something gender biologically neutral, especially when it is so very clear that our hosts are generous and open minded and unbiased.
I'll admit I know very little about the psychology of transgendered people, but I do have sympathy for anyone who wants to belong to a group yet feels excluded.
I just don't feel anyone who identifies herself as female should get upset about the word vagina/vaginal, whether or not she actually has one. Readers here should expect that either the majority of the members have a vagina, enjoy vaginas, want to read romantic stories where perhaps one of the main characters will have a vagina....
I feel this is a club for readers, lovers of books, and all that's required is eyeballs for reading or ears for listening or fingers for braille, the rest is entirely nonessential to the subject matter.
The group name is about the books, not the club members.
Michele wrote: "I don't think it's very fair to join a group like this and then expect the founders to change the name of it to be something gender biologically neutral, especially when it is so very clear that our hosts are generous and open minded and unbiased."Hazzah to every word of this! I totally agree.
Just to clarify, I didn't start this thread with an expectation that the name would change, nor have I asked for it specifically. I am just asking for this side of things to be considered; it could be a point of view that the hosts (who, again, I can't stress enough that I love and acknowledge as awesome, open-minded people) might not have considered. I'm asking that they acknowledge how it might be taken. Whether they do that by writing up a post about it, mentioning it in hangout, or by changing the name is up to them. But I will also counter that even if I were just asking for the name to change, it is never unfair to ask for an under-represented group's side to be heard or for a positive change to happen in support of the trans* community. But I think maybe my point wasn't fully explained. The word "vagina" is a great word and vaginas themselves are fantastic. The bit that bothers me is the implication that you must have one to be female and that, likewise, you must be female if you have one.
This is in no way an attack on the hosts or the group at all; I've followed it since the third or fourth hangout and am a huge fan. I always want to know when I'm doing something that could be hurtful and feel like our hosts would like to as well. So with that, I am speaking out on something I see and am holding a space for any trans* members who have feelings on the matter.
I'm thinking that speaking for these ladies and assuming that they'll feel hurt or isolated by implications that frankly, I'm not sure I see, is a bit unfair TO THEM. Speaking out against injustice, intentional or not, isn't a bad thing, of course, but I'm also a big fan of not putting words into people's mouths. This is just a case of putting the cart before the horse. No trans people have, to my knowledge, said that the group or its terminology has made them feel excluded or offended, and until such time, in the spirit of positivity, I think that the conversation should be tabled.
I very much appreciate your opinion, but I do disagree with it. As a supporter of the trans* community and a partner of a trans identified person, I would never be alright with not speaking out when I see that trans* identities are being ignored (intentionally or not). I'm only asking for the hosts' consideration on my points. If there's any concern that someone is being hurt by this, ignoring it only says that we don't acknowledge their struggles or identities. There's no reason to table a conversation that could clear up things and improve the experience of group members.
I'm definitely a supporter of the trams community. I'm just saying that until there's any indication that this is actually affecting anyone (thus far, it's only been cis ladies in this thread), it's jumping the gun a bit.
To put it in a different light, if I saw racist language being used in a group, I would ask that it be addressed and not wait until a person of color was made to feel discriminated. Implying that genitals dictate gender is hurtful and ignores the very existence of trans* identities. This is not specific to our group or a theory I've come up with on my own based on our group; it's a huge struggle that trans* persons face every day in our society. So, I would disagree and say it isn't jumping the gun to point out when something hurtful is happening in order to prevent someone feeling hurt or ignored.
This topic caught my eye because my partner is Trans*. Since we were lacking a Trans* opinion I asked him how he would feel if the situation was reversed. I know that's not exactly the same but he thought it was unlikely to be a problem and certainly wasn't for him. Of course one person can't speak for all and since a Trans*woman may not want to out themselves by coming forward on the issue I think it should be pointed out that any *trans individuals reading this with concerns could contact Felicia, any of the other ladies or even Geek and Sundry if they'd like to raise this in a less public forum. In fact Geek and Sundry have a contact forum on the bottom of their main page. http://www.geekandsundry.com
My experience with Trans* individuals has been that they want inclusion with their identified gender more than anything else. For this I think keeping the name and encouraging inclusion of all interested parties would be best.
I like the name. However, as a cis male, my opinion should have no particular bearing whatsoever on what anybody else thinks, especially on a subject like this one, and so shouldn't influence anyone any more than this overwrought passive-subversive qualification implies....With that in mind, I'd like to note that the title is "vaginal fantasy" not "vagina fantasy" meaning it references vaginas in the same way that the adjective "phallic" references phalli. That is, it's oriented, not pointed, if you take my meaning. So, I don't think that referential adjective should be taken as anything more than a broad and inclusive designation, meant to convey emphasis honestly and, frankly, accurately. To change it would be to pull focus away from what's really going on here, and while it's fine to have an agenda that differs from that of this group, the suggestion that the name should be changed to reflect that agenda is to try to impose that agenda, which indicates not only a disapproval of this group's activities, but a direct attempt to change them.
Mel - A big thanks to you and your partner for adding a trans* opinion to the thread! And I very much agree with you.I've been trying to specify through this that I'm not asking that the name be changed. I know there's an element to it of embracing words like "vaginal" and I think that's awesome. And as Gary mentioned, it does convey a pretty accurate emphasis for the books we read. But I've come to know that from 2 years of being in the group. I just think it would be helpful for anyone less familiar with the group if Felicia mentioned something about this to clarify that the group name is not meant to imply female strictly equals cis-female (as it did to my partner).
I got up the nerve to make my original post (yay social anxiety lol) because my partner (who is trans* identified) personally felt uncomfortable about it. They aren't a member of the group, but that was enough to me to think it deserved to be discussed. I love this group and am a huge fan of all the hosts. I'm not suggesting we change the way the group works or what we read for it in any way; I just wanted to bring up a POV that might not have been considered to make the group an even happier place.
Does anyone see an issue with an explanation of the name's meaning/where it comes from being put on the group home page? That's the kind of address of the issue I'm asking for here; just something to clarify. Even outside this whole topic, I think a background on the name would be an interesting thing to share.
Winx wrote: " The bit that bothers me is the implication that you must have one to be female and that, likewise, you must be female if you have one."Could you explain how you derive this implication? I can see the argument that the logo and name reference a certain type of fiction, but I don't get where it's making any sort of statement about gender and its intersection with physiology. If anything, the logo indicates that the literature is standing in for biology which would imply a greater inclusiveness.
Hi Phillippa, thanks for asking. From my perspective, having the name "vaginal fantasy" for a group that reads books focused on female identified characters, can be taken as implying that to be female you need a vagina/that those who have vaginas are female. Especially with no background on the name to clarify otherwise. Again, I'm not saying we should change the name or that the name is *meant* to imply anything, and I'm not attacking the group or the hosts because I love, love, LOVE them all. I can sense the resistance to my suggestion from these replies, but I'm not asking for a dramatic change; that's not necessary at all. I'm just asking that this perspective be considered.
I'm not so sure providing a definition/background would be useful. It would almost surely proscribe as much as describe, and could be limiting.Probably the most effective way to deal with your concerns would be to suggest some trans* friendly books you think the ladies might be interested in having a look at. I'm sure they'd be open to it.
Now THAT is a great idea, Gary!Winx, do you know of any books with trans leads that fall under the VF genres?
I just did a quick Google search and two things:1. If you search for "transgender" and "fantasy" the results... need a bit more focus. So, "fiction" is a good term to include.
2. Predictably, there's a goodreads listopia entry:
https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/tr...
This one leaps out at me:
The Left Hand of Darkness
I always love me some LeGuin....
I think that's a great idea as well! Gary, I really appreciate that you took time to consider my concern and suggest a great compromise. :) There's one series that I really love (The Tamir Triad by Lynn Flewelling in case anyone's interested) that jumps to mind, but I'm sure there are others that fit VF better (in this, it gets more VF-appropriate in the second or third book, but it's not really a series you can jump into out of sequence). I'd love to hear anyone else's suggestions! Otherwise, I know Goodreads has lists with books in this genre, and I'd be happy to pull some from those!
Oh I didn't see your post before I posted mine. :P Oh yeah, I haven't read The Left Hand of Darkness, but am a big LeGuin fan as well! I'll have more time later to do some searching, but it'd be great to get few together to suggest.
You're very welcome, Winx.I just read The Lathe of Heaven (Le Guin) and Parable of the Sower (Butler) but those were the authors on that list that I have found the most interesting in the past. Butler's "Xenogenesis" series looks particularly useful in this context.
I don't know if either are quite right for this group. Butler is probably more apt.
I haven't had a chance to go through this too much yet, but I found a list of recommendations that looks promising! Definitely going to look up a few of these later on :) http://smartbitchestrashybooks.com/bl...
This book list has a few entries on fantasy books with gender non-binary and transgender characters - http://perplexingly.tumblr.com/bookrec. I'm not sure how sexy any of them are, but I also tried googling for some sexier books, and a lot of them turned out to be like... 54 page erotica novels. I'm not sure if that's what we're looking for. ^^;;;;
The Bone Palace sounds pretty well suited for VF (it's the second in the series, but the reviews say it works well as a stand alone)! It's listed on the page Kelsy linked and says, "The Bone Palace (part of The Necromancer Chronicles, Amanda Downum)(major trans female character, seemingly hetero but later in a relationship with a woman; also the society is very feministic)"
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7...
Also just because I've seen it in several lists now and I mentioned it above, here's more on the first of the Tamir Triad (The Bone Doll's Twin): https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6...and again from the link Kelsy posted: "Tamír Triad, Lynn Flewelling
(Princess Tamir is born female, but to protect them they are magically transformed into male and raised as a boy. Later in the books they are transformed into female again)"
Mod
Felicia coined the term "vaginal fantasy" when she first got a Kindle and could purchase "smutty" books without embarrassment. The name of the group was meant to be a tounge-in-cheek nod to the romance genre. By including the word "vaginal" in the name it was meant to demonstrate that the club would be unapologetically about female-centric novels in genres (sci-fi, fantasy, etc.) whose authors and central characters have been, until recently, overwhelmingly male.
The name was meant to empower women, not to exclude anyone. Indeed, a number of viewers like myself are male. We enjoy the show, and the chance to read and discuss new books. I'm sure that now that you've made your concerns known, they will try to find a way to accommodate you. However, Felicia is in Europe at the moment, so a response will likely have to wait until she gets back.
I think a trans*-centric novel would be a good candidate for an alternate pick one month. Keep sending in suggestions. Another possible idea is to have a "renegade read" as they do on The Sword and Laser, where a number of members read a different book than the club's pick and then discuss it here on the forums. You might also consider starting a local/regional VF chapter or a Google+ hangout/email group to meet and exchange ideas on trans* people and fiction.
Aw thank you so much, Sean, for such a supportive message! I really appreciate, that! :)And I love all of those suggestions! There actually is a local hangout here in Portland, but I haven't worked up the nerve to go yet (yay social anxiety, again haha). But if we aren't able to get the book in as an official alt, I would love to do a "renegade read" with anyone else that's interested.
The Necromancer Chronicles were a fun series. The secondary characters from the first book do indeed go separate ways at the end of that story, so we re-join our main character in a new setting. I don't recall there being a lot of re-explaining her powers, so that might be the only thing that would trip people up coming straight to the second book. Smut-factor is very tame, sexual attraction is treated very openly and in a relatively healthy manner (as far as I can recall) but not very explicitly. Most of the play-time is fade out or off-camera so to speak. Viewpoint is shared, but only between 2 people if I recall correctly. The setting is nicely done, and while her writing isn't quite the equal of the picks we've had from Kay or Carey, I'd place it as above-average when looking at the picks overall.
I second the "Left Hand of Darkness" suggestion. That is a fantastic book and a sci-fi classic as well. I think that would be a wonderful pick.
Would be up for a renegade read! I love this club and the fun we have, but sometimes a variation from the norm is a fresh breath of air between all the heaving bosoms and rock-hard abs.
I also would love to read Left Hand of Darkness.
Awesome! Sounds like Left Hand of Darkness is definitely in the lead :)
Would a small disclaimer in the group description be a good compromise? Something like:Vaginal Fantasy strives to be intersectional and trans* inclusive, and as such want to acknowledge that not all women have vaginas. Everyone is welcome here.
How does the Renegade Read process work? Is it announced in a different thread? Are we beginning July 1st?
Caitlin - Thanks for chiming in! That's originally what I was hoping for when I started the thread, actually. Just a little clarification that the name isn't meant to exclude anyone. I think what you put is great, I would just add one bit to make it:Vaginal Fantasy strives to be intersectional and trans* inclusive, and as such wants to acknowledge that not all women have vaginas/not all who have vaginas are women. Everyone is welcome here.
And if it isn't too much, I personally think a note about what the name is would be neat, but that might just be me. Something like what Sean wrote in his post above: "The name of the group was meant to be a tounge-in-cheek nod to the romance genre."
And Amanda - I would up for starting in July! :)
I think at some point they are going to open up the book for the month to a poll, and if it works like other clubs then there will probably be nominations. Nominating Left Hand of Darkness (or another book that seems apt) seems like the best way to go. We'll see, though, how they go about it.I'd definitely be interested in that book... I just might pick it up anyway.
I like your phrasing better anyways, Winx.
Mod
Is it announced in a different thread? Are we beginning July 1st?"
A renegade read is just a bunch of group members who decide to read a different book that month, either because they've already read the pick or aren't interested in it. The selection often arises out of a "what else are you reading?" thread or one like this. When a critical mass is reached, someone starts a new thread dedicated to to that book and discussion ensues. For instance a couple of people here have stated that they would like to read The Left Hand of Darkness, so all that's left is someone to start new thread for the book and you've gone rogue. That is unless you would all like to wait and see if it gets picked up as an official alt. We haven't done Le Guin yet, so chances are good.
Additionally, I have updated the VF wiki to reflect the discussion here.
People may not like me for saying this, but why does anything need to be addressed in the group info blurb. Couldn't we simply continue to have the attitude that any one who isn't a jerk is welcome? The one group rule says: "no harassment, please be as classy as you can. This is all in fun!"
I thought the point of LGBT activism (most human rights activism for that matter) was to treat them equally and not differently? We are constantly striving for gender equality so that men and women are interchangeable as doctors, lawyers, CPAs, teachers, stay at home parents, etc. but know we are being asked to single people out and make a fuss over a specific group of people. Shouldn't we judge and include them based on their personality and character - not their body parts?
Example of what I would like this group to be (and what I think it's intended to be): I think I am cool, you seem cool, we both like the same books - hey, let's get together and talk about them! Oh, what's that, you like books about LGBT? Okay cool - I can roll with that. Let's start and group and make it open invitation to all. Awesome - high fives all around.
Nevada wrote: "Couldn't we simply continue to have the attitude that any one who isn't a jerk is welcome? The one group rule says: "no harassment, please be as classy as you can. This is all in fun!"Second that. If anything, a more general "this isn't just for women" comment would be fine. Really, its a club about books.... Being inclusive is a good general policy, but it seems like blurbing it into an introduction, mission statement style, is to take things off in another direction.
Mod
Sometimes the language we use can be misleading, offensive, or discriminatory, even when it is unintentional. Indeed, the name "Vaginal Fantasy" has caused considerable confusion to some in the past. I believe all Winx was asking for by starting this thread was to get some recognition for a minority that she felt wasn't being represented, and that the inclusion of the word "vaginal" in the title is off-putting to some in the trans* community. Under the circumstances, I don't believe the request is unwarranted. A simple acknowledgement and clarification would not impact the group or your enjoyment of it in any way.
I couldn't have summed it up better than Sean did! That's exactly my reasoning in starting the thread and asking for some clarification and acknowledgement. :)The name can imply cis-sexism and trans* exclusion, and adding the blurb to clear that up does no harm. To me, saying "this isn't just for women" still doesn't address the implication the name is making that "women" means cis-gender women.
There have already been two people in this thread who have indicated they felt uncomfortable. Rather than arguing over whether something is really necessary, how about we just make them comfortable? I can't speak for anyone else, but my life as a white, hetero, cis-woman is relatively easy and I don't mind going out of my way a little to make things better for those who have it less easy than me, especially when it's as simple as adding a sentence to the group description.
Also, the issue wasn't with who is "allowed" to participate, it was with the common assumption that one's genitals correspond with their gender. (ie. "Vaginal" in the name and then mention of women in the description infers those women will have vaginas, which is not always the case)
Thank you so much for that, Caitlin! Very well said.
George wrote: "Just for the record... I'm a man with pretty much the exact opposite of a vagina and the name never bothered me. It's like the term "phallic symbol" or similar anatomical descriptors."Agreed. Maybe that's some sort of man-thing, though. (By "man-thing" there I mean, cis male mindset, not penis.) It seems like the requirement to specifically mention genders in this context is some sort of attempt to abscond with the other's POV or otherwise impose one's own. At least, it reads as a passive-aggressive accusation to me. What about the fuzzies, the asexed, neo-polygamists?
Honestly, one of the themes of many of the books read by this group has been transformation, change and the social/personal implications of that process. The group is definitively friendly to those ideas. We've read books about people shifting into (and having sex with) amphibious Cthulhu beings, were-beasts, gods/goddesses, plant creatures, Gaian necro-clones to name a few. [Edit: If the group hasn't read anything particularly trans* related, I'd suggest that is because that's a somewhat mild shift given the extent of transformative plots already covered. Important to "vaginal" real world issues, certainly, but less so when it compared to "vaginal fantasy" ones....] Calling the group out for its name because it hasn't specifically mentioned a particular group "mission statement" style seems... over-wrought, shall we say.
But, maybe that's all male thinking dominated by my aforementioned cis male sense of privilege and entitlement. I'll just go sit in the corner now and chant "OK, fine, whatever" like a zen koan.
Vaginal Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
The Left Hand of Darkness (other topics)The Left Hand of Darkness (other topics)
The hangouts sometimes start with a disclaimer that, despite the name, guys are welcome, but this is still assuming gender based on a person's genitalia (as well as assuming binary genders). I think it would be really great to have our wonderful hosts address this.
Thanks! :)