All About Books discussion
Yearly Challenges
>
2017 Proust Challenge Book 5: The Captive (August-midSeptember)
date
newest »
newest »
Where I'm at he's talking about how Albertine is a shadow of her former self, noting that it's her captivity that is causing that change, but he ascribes it to fate, not to himself and his jealous nature. I have to say, I think Albertine really is in love with him, to submit to constant surveillance as she has done. She does seem to try to please him, to the point of reading his books and talking like him (I did like that scene). If she was just in it for the money and gifts he gives her, I don't think she would have done so.At this point, I have to wonder what Time Regained will be about. I'm hoping it's more "The Day I Grew A Pair" and he turns that analytical mind on himself.
I finished The Captive today and started a thread for The Fugitive for whomever's ready for it.
I'm stuck at the Verdurin/Charlus soiree. I hate reading novels that (view spoiler) In non-fiction accept it as part ofReality, but I hate to read it emphasized in fiction. And it just seems to go on and on in this book.
That's where I am, too, Joan. Much as I enjoy the crazy Verdurins in small doses, their parties always seem to go on too long.
Myth Busting Alert!Well, I was going to say perhaps (view spoiler) Often what common sense and t.v. psychologists tell us is just plain wrong.
For current expert thinking on this: http://stoprelationshipabuse.org/educ...
Arghh!!So it's Albertine's fault that he'll never get off his butt and go to Venice and his father's fault that he's a manipulative creep.
I like how Swann has come back into the story. When Swann passed away, the mention was so small and I was a bit disappointed. Now we're finding out more about Odette and Swann again. Somehow, at least in the terms of jealousies, there's a parallel between Odette & Swann and Marcel & Albertine.
Odette was with other men....is Albertine with others (men or women) as well? It seems a firm "maybe".
Yes, Albertine keeps our narrator from living the life he desires. Imagine that! If the sot wasn't so fixated on keeping her from living her live, maybe he could live his own?!!!!
So far, I haven't gotten the impression that Albertine is psychologically dependent on the narrator. She seems to have her independence but is playing some sort of game to keep on his good side. I'm not sure why; other than she's got no money of her own and needs someone to pay for her lifestyle. In order to get that, you've got to play by the Payer's rules, for the most part.
She must have had the same sort of arrangement when she was living with her aunt. Maybe she felt she needed to break away from the aunt's rules and the narrator was ready & willing to give her new rules? In essence, her life is freer than when she lived with her aunt.
Petra, re: Albertine, that is exactly what the research shows - the prevalent theory of co-dependence is a myth - the majority of victims do not become psychologically dependent on the abuser. It's a myth, just as it's a myth that abused children grow up to be abusers.I had thought that both of those were true.
To me it is sad and alarming the pop culture spreads harmful myths like those.
Petra wrote: "I like how Swann has come back into the story. When Swann passed away, the mention was so small and I was a bit disappointed. Now we're finding out more about Odette and Swann again. Somehow, at l..."
Your comment reminded me of something my Aunt told me. For women of her age, after college they either continued living at home, married and became subject to the dictates of a husband, or became nuns. For her becoming a nurse in WWII was the route to freedom.
Do you think Albertine really wants more freedom or is that all part of the narrator's delusion? When she is quoted, she seems very solicitous of his nerves & feelings, even after the Verdurin/Charlus soirée.
I think Albertine feels she can only have any sort of freedom if she lies to Marcel. Who, when he discovers the lie gets more jealous and watchful, which motivates Albertine to tell more lies. She does show signs of affection for him though, despite her captivity. She apparently hasn't complained about it, because I'm sure Marcel would have gone on for about 100 pages about it.
And Marcel doesn't seem to get that Albertine's captivity (imposed by him) is what is making her boring. For slamming society for always wanting the new, he's the same way. Since the pianola's been mentioned, I think he's approaching Albertine as he approaches music. He forms a mental model, he moves on to other things.
Joan wrote: "To me it is sad and alarming the pop culture spreads harmful myths like those.."Is it pop culture causing the myth or was a "known" fact until proven otherwise? I suspect the latter. Like much of science and psychology, things are "proven" until new research gives us new "proven" facts.
The problem is that once a "proven" fact is in our minds, we keep believing that. We don't usually hear the updates.
Joan wrote: "Do you think Albertine really wants more freedom or is that all part of the narrator's delusion? When she is quoted, she seems very solicitous of his nerves & feelings, even after the Verdurin/Charlus soirée.. ..."I wonder this myself. I don't know if she's content where she is but it is a lifestyle she enjoys and wants to keep, I think. Her options are to find someone else to provide this lifestyle or put up with the narrator's "little" peeves.
From what we're told about her life, she's got a fair amount of freedom. She's got some curfews and rules to live under but the rest of her time is her own. Could she have it any better within her circumstances, education or desire/ability to work full-time? She seems to have a good thing going for herself, it seems, and she seems content within the parameters given her.
....don't we all have rules we need to live under and are okay to do so? I have a lot of freedom in my marriage yet being on time, calling if I'm going to be late are "rules" (courtesies, really, but courtesies are also "rules" in their way, aren't they?).
...I'm not quite at the end of the soiree. Things are just getting started. I'm excited to find out how this is going to end.
I was....now I'm not..... that's Proust for you......LOL!
Petra wrote: "Joan wrote: "To me it is sad and alarming the pop culture spreads harmful myths like those.."Is it pop culture causing the myth or was a "known" fact until proven otherwise? I suspect the latter...."
I looked at the data through the database PubMed, I seems co-dependency started as a hypothesis that which caught the eye of people because it seems reasonable. It didn't stand up to testing but had already entered "common knowledge". I think that is how people lose faith in science, someone propose a hypothesis, over states their evidence but their hypothesis feels right to people. And it's led to horribly damaging shows like America's Biggest Loser, those dreadful addiction intervention monstrosities and the Broken Windows model of policing. Anyway, I am embarrassed to realize that I had fallen for one without checking the evidence for myself. I only checked because I wanted to be sure before posting to G.R.
I'd suggest rules are one thing, constant surveillance is quite another. I'm reminded of the film The Lives of Others in this regard.
Phew, I've finished, not my favorite book in the series.
You two are ahead of me. I'm just at the end of the section with the Verdurins' soiree. I'm not fond of their treatment of Charlus.
What I did like was the last couple of pages (view spoiler). I like the discussion about how one never knows the heart of a person. A person can be both a combination of good and bad but that once we see the bad, we can't (or won't) see the good.
So true. We don't often see people fully, from all sides. We only see very little of each individual.
Perception is important, for sure. However, what is just as important (or more so) is the ability to see beyond the perception and change is as we get to know the person more.
The Verdurins aren't my favorite people but I'm glad that they had this kind spot in their hearts. Saniette's last few years were made much more peaceful and calm because of it.
Joan wrote: "Yes it was [spoilers removed] What did you like best about it?"I was just glad that (view spoiler)
Tom wrote: "Joan wrote: "Yes it was [spoilers removed] What did you like best about it?"I was just glad that [spoilers removed]"
He is sure to conclude that a) it hurts him more than it hurts anyone else, b) it wasn't his fault, c) now he'll never be able to go to Venice.
Tom wrote: "For slamming society for always wanting the new, he's the same way...."That's what I thought, Tom. It's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. As soon as he's familiar with something, he gets bored and moves on. It's a pattern throughout his life.
I liked the description of the pianola:"the pianola was to us at times like a scientific magic lantern.....supplied with inventions more modern than my room at Combray, I could see extending before me.....now an 18th century tapestry sprinkled with cupids and roses, now the Eastern steppe in which sounds are muffled by the boundless distances and carpets of snow."
Music can paint pictures and feelings in one's mind and heart. In it's way, it is the magic lantern of sound.
Finished. What an ending! High five to Albertine!The narrator's musings were getting incredibly creepy again. He can go to Venice now because, at the moment, he knew Albertine couldn't enjoy the company of her women friends?!! He could enjoy the visit because she would be alone??!!!!
I laughed when his stringent rule was what Albertine used as her strategy.
Great ending. Proust does know how to write cliff hangers.
Now that we've finished. Why do you think Albertine chose that moment to put her plan in motion?
They had that chat at the beginning of the section where he said that she could leave in the morning. They then continued with their lives but his complaining continued: she stopped him from visiting Venice, she's boring, etc. Somehow, after that night when he visited the Verdurins' things were never the same. We're only hearing his side of things but I suspect that for her, too, things weren't the same and she had her thoughts as well.
She knew him well enough to know that the best time to leave, without arguing or cajoling or guilt would be in the hours before he rang that damned bell. She also knew that if she left at any other time, Francoise would alert him somehow (phone, message, voice) but that during his private sleeping hours, she couldn't and wouldn't upon his very strict orders.
It was well thought out. Good for her!
That, too. I had considered that but then thought that she must have known all along? Do you think she was oblivious until the lies started being mentioned? I hadn't thought of that possibility.
She definitely suspected it, but I'm wondering if his going to the Verdurins was an f--- you move to her. Then again he kind of gave her a taste of her own medicine in covering it up til after the fact.
I thought it was part of the games they were playing with each other. I was a bit surprised at the lies that came out about her and wondered about the reasoning for those. She wasn't with him at the time; just friends and getting to know each other. The lies indicate that she saw that he had strict rules of conduct and that she took pains to ensure that she appeared to be what he wanted.
That sort of leads me to think that she might have been looking for man who would pay for her life of ease.
Then, when it became a reality, she realized how heavy those chains would be to carry throughout her lifetime.
(his going to the Verdurins was a f--- you move)
I am about 3/4 of the way through this one. Marcel is increasingly creepy as this series progresses! Those scenes when he (view spoiler) made my skin crawl. He has such a dog-in-the-manger attitude; he keeps saying he doesn't love Albertine but he doesn't want her to see anyone else.I was a bit amused that he set Andree to watch/chaperone Albertine as there were plenty of indications even in the previous book that those two were attracted to each other.
Some sad events in this volume such as (view spoiler).
Leslie,I know what you mean about the creepiness -
I wonder if his contemporary readers were made queasy by his behavior.
Maybe we are now more aware/less tolerant of such creepiness?
Could it be because there is more recognition of respect for persons, individual rights and equality?
Joan wrote: "Leslie,I know what you mean about the creepiness -
I wonder if his contemporary readers were made queasy by his behavior.
Maybe we are now more aware/less tolerant of such creepiness?
Could it..."
I think that we are more aware that such behavior could be a sign of something worse to come like stalking, domestic abuse, psychopath/sociopath horrors.
Our narrator certainly is creepy. Leslie, I'm glad you're still enjoying the novel.
Joan, I'm not sure if we're more aware of creepiness today. I think a lot of things used to be "open secrets" but we're probably less tolerant of it.
All About Books
Books mentioned in this topic
A Pianist Under the Influence (other topics)Swann’s Way (other topics)
The Marriage Plot (other topics)
Marcel Proust's Search for Lost Time: A Reader's Guide to The Remembrance of Things Past (other topics)
Sodom and Gomorrah (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Jonathan Biss (other topics)Jeffrey Eugenides (other topics)
Our poor little narrator is moaning about his poor self-image.
He may have low self-esteem but certainly seems to have an even lower opinion of everyone else.