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2017 Proust Challenge Book 5: The Captive (August-midSeptember)
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Petra
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Aug 24, 2017 09:23PM
I have read it, Joan. That's an interesting comparison. I can see that. Nice comparison!
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Life with Proust must have been maddening- after a convoluted and lengthy description of sleep and waking (YAWN), he give a wonderful and evocative description of the calls of folks selling things in the street.And this statement makes the narrator sound almost kind & considerate,
"Not at all, I like them because I know that you do."
I do like when Proust addresses the meaning/role of art, as in this,"Music...helped me to go deeper into myself, to find new things there....Let us know the qualitative essence of another's sensations in a way that love for another being can never do."
Joan, I liked that street scene, too. I do this, too: wake up and before opening my eyes, just listen to the sounds around me. We don't have street vendors to listen to, though. I did find that scene rather homey.
My husband enjoys music on a level that I can't seem to, too. His feelings are somewhat the same as those. He hears something in the music that I can't penetrate. It's wonderful, I think.
Some music affects me like that but not all, perhaps you will find a piece that transports you like the Vinteuil sonata.I like to think Vinteuil's piece sounds like Schumann's Scenes from Childhood https://youtu.be/jeoFfK0iAAI
is your husband a musician? I'm not but at the ripe old age of 57 I am trying to learn to sing - it's a challenge.
HaHa - I loved the bit about A. claiming to be late because she was talking (view spoiler).
I loved loved this:Someone else's death is like being on a journey and remembering, a hundred kilometers from Paris, that one has left behind two dozen handkerchiefs, forgotten to give a key to the cook, to say goodbye to one's uncle...But all these forgotten things the memory of which assails one...come up against the stern reality of the carriage seat and the station name called out by the guard which only marks the increasing impossibility of doing those things."
Petra wrote: ""True, I felt some remorse at being so insufferable to Albertine...."Does he feel the same remorse at being so insufferable to the Reader????!!!!!"
Clearly not, because he gives us at least 1000 pages worth of that crap.
On a related note, I started Book 5 today. I can't say he has an Oedipal complex but he certainly is a mama's boy. He requires Albertine to be with him to soothe his ills, much like he needed his mother to come upstairs to be with him in Swann's Way. And he also has a partition (though in the bathroom) for her (Albertine) much like he had with his grandmother in his first visit to Balbec and then his mother in his second. When he talks about the different people inside oneself I couldn't help but think why not find the one that can put on his big boy pants and try some adulting.
Joan wrote: "What do you make of this comment by the translator of the edition I'm reading? From the introduction: "He attributes to lesbians a kind of promiscuous, predatory sexual behavior which, nowadays at ..."As I posted in the Book 4 thread, I think that is Proust's doing - according to him it seems like homosexuals are super thirsty and seem to do just about anything to quench that thirst.
Tom wrote: "Petra wrote: ""True, I felt some remorse at being so insufferable to Albertine...."Does he feel the same remorse at being so insufferable to the Reader????!!!!!"
Clearly not, because he gives us..."
Well put - love the image of our narrator needing big boy pants. (view spoiler)
Re: My question about the statement from the introduction in my book - I found the translators qualifier "nowadays at least" as if homosexual people might in fact be more promiscuous than average, offensive - and I wondered if anyone else did.
Tom!! You've made it here! Love the "big boy pants" image.
I'm mired down in reflections of jealousy and how it affects the well-being of our narrator. Can he get any more self-centered??!!!
I can't imagine how upset and angry I would be if I was summoned out of a matinee in order to take our narrator out for a walk. Gracious! I hope Francoise doesn't find her.
Joan, how old is your translation? A sentiment such as that is offensive today. Perhaps not at the time of translation? I think (but may very well be wrong) that all these translations are fairly old and, therefore, have outdated ideas in the introductions.
My copy is 3-volumes, so the introduction is in the first volume. I haven't read it yet.
To answer the actual question, yes, it would definitely be considered offensive today, though for me personally it's more of a WTF? As for editions, I didn't realize that The Captive and The Fugitive were combined into one edition (on Modern Library). Doesn't affect me though since I picked up the complete set in one Kindle file.
Since we are so much of the way through the series, I'll ask... Is Marcel a reliable narrator?
I think he's too one-sided to be reliable. He sees everything from his point of view. Without trying to see things from the perspective of other's our views are too focussed on us for us to see the whole picture. This skews what we see and what we understand.Therefore, I would say that he's an unreliable narrator.
....but he's all we have to go on. No one else in this story talks.
I'm reading the new translations done by Penguin and released in 2002 except in the U.S. The reviews of it in The Economist inspired me to try reading Proust.
I had to go to England to buy them!
"THE Proust nouveau est arrivé. The product of seven translators working under the editorship of Christopher Prendergast, a French scholar at Cambridge, this claims to be the first completely new translation of “A la recherche du temps perdu” since the famous version by C.K. Scott Moncrieff...you are struck, when turning to the text, by the general success of these translations. James Grieve, who did volume two, “In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower”, reminds us that Proust's writing can be so slipshod that editing it becomes unavoidable. Yet in seeking to produce something equivalent to the French rather than a version that has been manipulated to make it more comprehensible, the translators have produced something very readable."
http://www.economist.com/node/1365184
I agree with Petra, the narrator is not reliable - though I think that is one of his themes: that we never really know anyone, even ourselves and by the time we understand something about them or ourselves, they and we have changed into someone new.*Please forgive the awkward sentence structure. I like to think I'm artistic & experimental but in fact I'm just illiterate and sloppy.
My copy is translated by C.K. Scott Moncrieff and Terence Kilmartin.I've got no idea how it compares to any other translation or when it was translated by them.
From https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2005/... :At the age of 20, Marcel Proust put his own psyche under the microscope by answering questions meant to reveal one’s innermost thoughts. Here are Proust’s own responses from 1892.
What is your most marked characteristic? A craving to be loved, or, to be more precise, to be caressed and spoiled rather than to be admired.
What is the quality you most like in a man? Feminine charm.
What is the quality you most like in a woman? A man’s virtues, and frankness in friendship.
What do you most value in your friends? Tenderness—provided they possess a physical charm, which makes their tenderness worth having.
What is the trait you most deplore in yourself? Lack of understanding; weakness of will.
What is your favorite occupation? Loving.
What is your idea of perfect happiness? Not, I fear, a very elevated one. I really haven’t the courage to say what it is, and if I did I should probably destroy it by the mere fact of putting it into words.
What do you regard as the lowest depth of misery? Never to have known my mother or my grandmother.
In which country would you like to live? One where certain things that I want would be realized—and where feelings of tenderness would always be reciprocated.
Who are your favorite writers? At the moment, Anatole France and Pierre Loti.
Who are your favorite poets? Baudelaire and Alfred de Vigny.
Who is your favorite hero of fiction? Hamlet.
Who is your favorite heroine of fiction? Berenice.
Who are your favorite composers? Beethoven, Wagner, Schumann.
Who are your favorite painters? Leonardo da Vinci, Rembrandt.
What are your favorite names? I only have one at a time.
What is it that you most dislike? My own worst qualities.
Which talent would you most like to have? Willpower and irresistible charm.
How would you like to die? A better man than I am, and much beloved.
What is your current state of mind? Annoyance at having to think about myself in order to answer these questions.
What is your motto? I prefer not to say, for fear it might bring me bad luck.
Petra - his seems quite charming through those survey responsesI had to look up colonne Rambuteau/pissotiere - my goodness they were elaborate
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2016/0...
A rose by another name would smell as sweet - or conversely...
I think the Modern Library edition has Moncrieff and Kilmartin as the translators with revisions by Enright."The very emptiness of her life gave Albertine a sort of eagerness to comply with the few demands I made on her." - when I came across this quote, I had to answer yes, Marcel is unreliable at least when it comes to Albertine. Thing is, he's doing the same thing that Saint-Loup did with Rachel, essentially buying her complicity with the ridiculous demands he makes on her. I can't see Rachel being that compliant, although their (Rachel and Saint-Loup's) was much further along. Proust counterpoints this with Charlus' attempts to control Morel via marrying him to Jupien's niece.
Edited to add: I can't help but think that one of Proust's points is that even under restrictive circumstances like Albertine's, it's still difficult or well nigh impossible to know her inner life, much to Marcel's chagrin. What is the truth of the other person? I think that's what Marcel and Charlus are trying their damnedest to find out.
With that said, I'm finding this book a lot easier reading than its predecessors, I think because he's gone beyond history and geography (and the related etymology) and gotten into interpersonal relationships, which for me is a lot more understandable/compelling.
"Grand pied de grue" = big foot of craneWhy is the narrator so "shattered" at hearing Morel yell these words to his fiancée? It really threw him for a loop but he didn't really explain why (or I missed it).
Tom, I think you've again hit the nail on the head for me. This book is so full of a cloying jealousy that I've been wondering why I'm enjoying it. It may very well be because it's more straight-forward and basically a story of life, rather than a history lesson and etymology.
Petra, the notes in my translation give some hints but note that it is a slang phrase not found in dictionaries.Une grue was slang for prostitute
"Faire le pied de grue means to wait, to be kept waiting or hanging about"
So my translation said he called he a great slut
I thought Proust wanted the reader to envision the prostitutes who wait hang about on dark street corners rather than the prostitutes that our narrator met in brothels.
Have you noticed that the narrator is fondest of everyone when they are not with him. He is fondest of the image he has made of them not who they really are. I think that is the crux of this story, we fall in love with a person and then hold them captive to that image. Our so-called love is a combination of tenderness for the object and jealous desire to keep them locked in the mould we built. We are tortured by what we imagine they do when away from us because we cannot confine the to our image.
That's interesting, Joan, and does put a whole different perspective on the comment. I'm still not sure why he's so shattered by it, even if he pictured street walker prostitutes. Perhaps the slur was used rarely in his day and he hadn't heard it used on an everyday person, especially one he knows?
She was a nice, hardworking, virtuous girl and Morel had been acting like her fiancé - so suddenly calling her a skulking whore seems a pretty big, shocking insult to me.
It was an insult; no question about that. It's the narrator's response to it, that I question. If it had been said to himself, it would be personal and "shattering". Our narrator is so self-centered that it's surprising that an insult to anyone else is "shattering". I accept that it was, though.
"As soon as she was a captive in my house, ......, Albertine had lost all her colours, together with all the opportunities that other people had of securing her for themselves. Gradually she had lost her beauty."He seems so happy to have accomplished this. It's in his own head, of course, but it's what's he's going for. How awful!!
That aside, I'm thinking about the title of this book. Who exactly is the captive here?
Albertine is captive only in the narrator's mind. She comes and goes as she pleases, within the confines of the narrators whims and rules, though. So, she's somewhat a captive (activities and decisions curtailed) but she has freedom to come & go within those rules and whims.
The narrator is confined, it seems, to the apartment. He can leave but, for the most part, he chooses not to. He's dropped off socializing, travelling and visiting. It's self-confined but he's as much or more of a captive than Albertine.
I think Proust is hinting that all humanity is somehow captive to their lives and circumstances, thoughts, desires, etc.
ooh I like that interpretation- I'd been stuck thinking of Albertine as the prisoner, but you are right that doesn't quite fit.I just realized (head-slap) the title of my edition is The Prisoner.
Do you think as translations Captive and Prisoner have the same connotations?
Joan, I would say that "captive" and "prisoner" have the same connotation and are only a difference of word choice during translation.Definitions:
Captive: a person who has been taken prisoner
Prisoner:
a) a person captured and kept confined by an enemy, opponent, or criminal
b) a person who is or feels confined or trapped by a situation or set of circumstances
From the definitions, a Captive is a Prisoner.
More interesting is, which of the definitions of Prisoner best fit the intent of this book?
If A, who is the enemy or opponent? (I suppose it would depend on who the captive/prisoner is)
(view spoiler)
We get to hear Morel's (lame) explanation of the "grand pied de grue" episode.It must have been an incredible insult at the time.
Morel is a dog.
This may be splitting hairs but to me, captive seems a better word than prisoner. Why? Because Marcel has essentially taken Albertine from the wild and put her in his own personal zoo so he can appreciate (by himself) as well as keep in check those natural instincts/behaviors that make Albertine who she is. In other words, she captivates Marcel, who makes her a captive because of it. Animals living in zoos for very long periods/over generations are described as living in captivity, which dulls their natural, wild instincts often to the point where they could not survive in the wild anymore. What starts as wild should stay wild. To me, this is different from being a prisoner, where the implication is that incarcerated person has committed some action/crime that warrants their being in there for rehabilitation, or, failing that, to keep them from harming society and its members further. The rehabilitation's object being to remove the wild inclinations/behaviors and return the person to his civilized self. What starts as wild should be and remain civilized.
That's not splitting hairs; that's insightful. In terms of Albertine then, in the view of the narrator, "prisoner" might be the better fit. He feels he's stopping her from an action (relationships with girls).
Does he appreciate her or enjoy her in any way? He doesn't seem to. He seems to only want to rehabilitate her somehow. He wants the wild side to be civilized in her, I think.
As readers, though, we would see her as a captive. She's done no harm and her natural personality is being curtailed.
Could that be a part of what Proust is saying? It's exaggerated in this case but in every relationship compromises are made. I'm very free to do what I want in my marriage but, out of respect, courtesy and want, I would call my husband to let him know of plans so that he won't worry or wait, etc.
Is that a form of losing freedom and being a captive? My actions are changed by being with a person.
If Proust is suggesting that we are all captives of life, its a very philosophical thought. We are all influenced by everything around us; therefore, we're all "rehabilitated" in one way or another.
I can see how we're influenced by our experiences, etc. but I wouldn't call it being captive, yet I can understand that none of us is entirely free either.
Actually, I think he's keeping her for himself, and he sees women being a bigger threat to this exclusivity than men. I think he mentions that if it was men, he would at least have the same toolset to compete, but with women he thinks he would be at a disadvantage. So it's not the attraction to women in and of itself, it's how it relates to him owning her. He does seem to appreciate her attentions, but the main draw is that he has her all to himself.
That's the sort of nuance I was wondering about - the words bring up different images for me; it's funny how synonyms can do that even though we know the definition is the same.For me
A prisoner is held captive because of something they are thought to have done or because of who they are - and it conjures the idea of wrongdoing/punishment and dirt.
A captive, on the other hand, is held for more impersonal reasons- as pawn by larger powers, it conjures images of martyrdom/victimhood and honor. The Cambridge Dictionary puts it this way: "a prisoner especially someone held by the enemy during time of war" http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/di...
Joan wrote: "That's the sort of nuance I was wondering about - the words bring up different images for me; it's funny how synonyms can do that even though we know the definition is the same.For me
A prisoner ..."
But the Cambridge definition seems to imply the same personal responsibility. We are holding you prisoner because you have done harm to us, or if we let you out, you will do harm to us. As you indicated in the paragraph before that, the person has done some harm that warrants his/her seclusion from society.
Being held captive, in my mind, has to do with more the essential nature of a thing. I mentioned zoos above because we bring animals into captivity so that we can see them up close, without having to journey to their natural habitat and the the danger that entails. This seems to be more what Marcel is going for, not to punish Albertine, but to keep tabs on her. I have to say though the more he goes on about this, the closer he is to killing her and making a suit out of her skin so he could wear it. I'd also add he has a very twisted notion of love, which seems to be all about him.
I agree, captive seems better because, like a panda or hostage. The other girls in the Balbec group were lucky that he fixated on Albertine.
I see your point, Tom. I agree that he is keeping her for the purpose that does not include punishment; therefore, she's a captive. He is one creepy dude. I like (and abhor) the "making a suit out of her skin so he could wear it" analogy. So fitting. So creepy. So frightening.
I've moved into the next section which leaves Albertine behind (for how long we don't know yet). I hope she enjoys her time without the narrator.
If you are getting tired of the jealousy and obsession, the scene will change soon. :D
Thank you for letting me know - it was turning into such a psychological mess that I've had trouble picking it up.@Tom's analogy is spot-on.
I was getting tired of picking up the book, too, Joan. Thankfully, it's fun again.
Wow, I've gone as far as Vinteuil's musical work - The description brought Igor Stavinsky's "Rite of Spring" to mind, a piece worth hearing https://youtu.be/NOTjyCM3Ou4.But some experts point out that Proust said his inspiration was Saint-Saens' Violin Sonata #1 in D-Major http://prufrocksdilemma.blogspot.com/...
Petra wrote: "My husband enjoys music on a level that I can't seem to, too. His feelings are somewhat the same as those. He hears something in the music that I can't penetrate. It's wonderful, I think."Everytime Proust writes about Vinteuil's sonata, I think of Schumann's Scenes from Childhood- so I am pleased to see that Proust mentions them too!
"the phrase calmed me by its soft background of silence which underlies certain reveries of Schumann's during which one senses "the poet is speaking" & "the child is asleep" which are movements within Scenes from Childhood.
https://youtu.be/jeoFfK0iAAI
I love that piece.
I enjoy your comments about the music portions, Joan.I enjoy the writing in these portions but don't get that much connectivity with them. Your connectivity helps me relate to these sections more.
I enjoy Proust's writing about music (and sleep and death) most of all. I will have to listen to the Schumann you mentioned, Joan. If you are a Schumann fan, I would highly recommend reading (or listening to, if you don't have a Kindle), A Pianist Under the Influence by Jonathan Biss. Mr. Biss is a young pianist who has an affinity for the composer which the text brings out. I've heard him play live (not Schumann though) and on recordings (e.g. Schumann's Butterflies). You can sample his art as he plays Fantasiestuecke No.2 by Schumann.Saint-Saens is not surprising, but I would have figured Proust to be a Faure man myself, like his Violin Sonata #1.
Tom,Some other experts think Faure, Franck, or Debussey was the inspiration. Apparently musicologists have whole conference sessions about Proust and his music. http://radioproust.org/multimedia/
The link I gave cites a specific comment by Proust:
"Many origins of the petite phrase have been put forward, including Franck’s Violin Sonata in A Major (1886) and Fauré’s Ballade, for piano and orchestra, Op. 19 (1881). However, Proust was unequivocal about the origin of the petite phrase: as he wrote to Jacques de Lacretelle, “the ‘little phrase’ of the Sonata—and I have never said this to anyone—is . . . the charming but mediocre phrase of a violin sonata by Saint-Saëns, a musician I do not care for.”
Petra, like you I enjoy connectivity but I'm not really a people person, so when I read books set in the past, I like seeing the art, clothing and listening to the music appropriate to the setting.
Tom wrote: "I enjoy Proust's writing about music (and sleep and death) most of all. I will have to listen to the Schumann you mentioned, Joan. If you are a Schumann fan, I would highly recommend reading (or li..."Tom,
Can you put into words why Proust brings Faure to mind for you?
I'd thought of Scenes from Childhood because from the descriptions in the earlier books it seemed a lighter more catchy, dreamy air. I was surprised by the energetic way he described the longer work - which doesn't fit Scenes from Childhood at all.
Thanks for link to the Faure - I had not ever heard it or Kyung Wha Chung.
I'll look for the book - I won't get it on Kindle because I think my husband will want to read it too.
Sadly, I think it's Kindle-only. That's why I suggested the audiobook. Faure's works have always seemed so civilized to me, it seemed a natural fit to Proust's sensibilities. Most people point to his Requiem, but he wrote a lot of other fine music that does not get played often enough in my opinion.
I'm at the point where Marcel is talking about the street vendor chorus, and I am getting the impression that he's not that into Albertine, he's afraid of being alone, cloistered in that room. Not that it excuses his actions, but adds a dimension to them.
Tom wrote: "I'm at the point where Marcel is talking about the street vendor chorus, and I am getting the impression that he's not that into Albertine, he's afraid of being alone, cloistered in that room. Not ..."I loved that description of the street vendors.
I liked the street vendors, too.The Verdurins are back. Sigh! They give such long parties. People are just arriving.
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Jonathan Biss (other topics)Jeffrey Eugenides (other topics)
