The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian by Robert E. Howard

[Brendan]

The frost-giant's daughter was neither human nor an enemy, and you are incorrect about the vale of lost women.

[S.W.]

Brendan, that's why I qualified the comments with "iirc". I have very short recreational reading time, what with half of one working eye. Also, her Nordic brothers were slain by Conan's sword no? Frazetta at least painted it that way. Read closer, and you'll see Conan and all Howard's Celtic heroes were blackhaired, darkskinned Irish-types, hence even Conan's name. He was not some blond-haired, prejudiced redneck stereotype as the Conan-knockoff-industry leaned towards. I think he might have used "bronze-skinned" a few times, but heck, so was Bruce Lee. I like the point Phil raised a few posts back, more a force of nature than anything.

[Jim]

I had to laugh at Brendan's comment that we don't know about Conan's motivations. Perhaps they were too simple to be noticed, but they're pretty much summed up by what Crom breathes into a man at birth. Kull, Bran Mac Morn, & Soloman Kane were more complex, while Conan is a very simple character. It's part of his charm. He's just a boy who wants to have fun, explore new places, find enemies to crush, & get enough money to enjoy wine, women, & song. Along the way, he just falls into interesting situations, even accidentally winds up becoming a king, something that he hates.

Physical traits do substitute for characterization a lot. If they had hairy, brutish, low foreheads, & such then they were almost always primitive, untrustworthy, vicious &/or stupid. More 'refined' physical types were either really good or bad & had higher intelligence. 'Refined physical type' usually meant thin noses, tall, & slim.

The brutish type often seemed to be determined by heat & humidity. It was more common among the jungle climate which apparently made people decadent & lazy. Darker skins were typically associated with jungles than lighter skinned folks, but there are exceptions throughout the REH's works. Even when they were light skinned & physically refined originally, living in the jungles for a few generations made them bad. Life among colder or desert climates where people strove hard to live kept them at their best. The cloak of civilization, especially when it made life too easy ruined them.

The physical types isn't surprising from a Texan in the early 1900s. Phrenology & such was popular. Edgar Rice Burroughs did pretty much the same thing & that continued, even got worse, through the Campbellian era of SF. No matter how they author really felt about it, they had to write for the popular concept, especially under Campbell.

[[deleted user]]

S.W. wrote: "Brendan wrote: "(the always dark-skinned enemy du jour.)"

...., the women in the lost vale weren't either iirc...."

Women of the Lost Vale is, as I previously noted in that story's discussion, the most explicitly racist story of the collection. You can excuse it as Howard being a writer of a different time when such views were the norm in white America, segregation was law and interracial marriage was banned, but it's far from an inaccurate generalization to point out the racism of Howard's stories.

[[deleted user]]

Jim wrote: "Physical traits do substitute for characterization a lot. If they had hairy, brutish, low foreheads, & such then they were almost always primitive, untrustworthy, vicious &/or stupid. More 'refined' physical types were either really good or bad & had higher intelligence. 'Refined physical type' usually meant thin noses, tall, & slim...."

Hmmm. This seems to run counter to Howard's theme that civilization is bad and civilized men less trustworthy, polite, etc. Several times Conan's raw instincts win out where a more refined, intelligent thief gets killed. (e.g. Tower of the Elephant, Black Colossus, Pool of the Black One.)

[S.W.]

G33z3r wrote: "but its far from an inaccurate generalization to point out the racism of Howard's stories."

Referring specifically to "Vale of Lost Women," thanks for the story recap, reminding me not to bother to reread that one. As for generalizations, I had that one stored in my memory as "one of his generally worst-written stories" period. I'd more be tempted to speculate an editor tampered with it, rather than try to contrast it with "Roots" or something.

[Jim]

G33z3r wrote: "Jim wrote: "...Hmmm. This seems to run counter to Howard's theme that civilization is bad and civilized men less trustworthy, polite, etc...."

Not at all. Refined physically seems to have little to do with the level of civilization. Cimmerians aren't 'civilized' yet are physically & mentally refined by the clean cold of the northlands. The same descriptions are used for desert wastes, mountains, & such. Getting down & dirty in the swamps & jungles makes a people regress, though.

Similarly, physically striving against the clean environments & self-sufficiency, a lower standard of living, refines their mental processes to the proper point. In several stories, he discusses civilizations where things got too easy for the people & they either reverted to savagery or became decadent. Sorcery, which brings ease of living (no need to strive against enemies) & twists minds into paths of horror is akin to both. "Red Nails" is one such story. Not sure if it was in this collection, but it should be. Valeria is very much a Belit character.

IIRC, in some of his letters he spoke of an appropriate level of civilization. I'm not a REH scholar although there are several in the REH group who could probably tell better.

[Jim]

As for racism, REH was a product of his times, but not nearly as racist as many. Not exactly great praise, but at least he had some heroic figures of color which was tough to do. Readers generally need to identify with the hero & that was impossible to the majority that these stories were sold to. They were WASPs. Indians & other folks of color were nothing like them, at least according to common conception of the time, so the editors wouldn't even consider stories unless the hero was a WASP.
Heroines were a tough sell too & REH was trying to write stories that sold. Times were hard & this was eating money.

People of color & heroines were an even tougher sell a couple/few decades later. Look at the trouble Heinlein had with it. Tunnel in the Sky has a hero of color, but it's so subtly hinted at that I missed it for years until I read something by Heinlein about it. This editorial attitude was why Harrison wrote Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers.