Indie Route or Publisher Route?

[Matthew]

While I'm sure this question has been asked before, and dealt with in many threads already, I wanted to get people's thoughts on the question. And it's partly because I'm making the transition myself.

Which route are you taking? Have you tried it both ways? And of course, which one is better, and why?

[Leonie]

I'm trad published with small press. Three books (trilogy) and the possibility of more shortly.

So far it's been a good experience. Professional editing, which has helped me improve my writing, an appreciation for the complexities of publishing, and some regular royalties.

[Nik]

I'd go with the trads any hour of the day. We (with the co-author) tried to find a publisher with the 1-st book, failed and I didn't bother to try with the 2-nd and third.
Writing is fun, while having to think how to sell is killing the fun part for me, hence - I'd gladly outsource the commercial part.
Additional reason - as a trad you start in the plus, still having an advance paid, while as an indie it's always a starting minus, which probably the majority of indies does even recoup.
And lastly - the validation. Agents might not know much in literary merits (although many do), but those who are still in the biz by now, can smell what they can sell in the genres they work, so recruiting an agent is a sort of a validation of sales potential...

[E.P.]

I went indie with my fiction just because I was tired of submitting things and getting rejected or getting accepted and then spending weeks or months redoing my works to make people who either didn't know what they were talking about, or were promoting their own agenda, happy. But I agree with Nik--going indie means putting up all the money upfront, with no guarantee of getting it back, and self-promotion is a lot of work and not very much fun. So far I'm money behind with my fiction writing. I know that people do make money with indie publishing, but the general rule of thumb I've heard is that it normally takes 5-10 books before you start to see returns, and then only if you're both good and lucky, and in the meantime you can sink hundreds or thousands of the monetary unit of your choosing in your quest.

The book I'm working on now is non-fiction and academic and I will have to find a traditional publisher for it, since that's part of the deal for it to "count" for me professionally and in this case I would in theory appreciate peer review and editing to help search out mistakes and so on (by the way, if anyone reading this happens to be an expert on contemporary Russian military prose and/or the Chechen wars and wants to read an academic work on the topic, let me know :) ). However, academic books don't normally get big advances and there's even a trend of publishers demanding that the authors front the publishing costs themselves, often to the tune of several thousand dollars, these days. I am hoping to avoid that, but...if I could get a traditional publishing deal that would actually allow me to work full time as a writer, I would take it, but I don't see that happening. Indie publishing allows me to put my works out there and sell at least a few copies, with the hope of selling more.

That being said, if traditional what you want to do, you might as well give it a shot. I kind of feel like with publishing, you might as well fight the war on all fronts.

[Matthew]

I know exactly what you mean folks! I too was sick and tired of trying to figure out how to shop my manuscripts out, so when my mentor told me in 2010 to go the indie route, I was happy and obliged. But that too seemed rather frustrating and annoying, and I couldn't figure out how to promote my writing to the world without feeling like I was pimping it out.

And when a publisher approached me, I felt very much validated. Knowing that an industry professional liked my work and thought I had potential was a major boost to my confidence and self-esteem as a writer. I am finding it easier to write now that I have this confidence in what I'm putting down.

[Matthew]

Tim wrote: "Leonie wrote: I'm trad published with small press. Three books (trilogy) and the possibility of more shortly.

Leonie, you are with an ebook publisher who doesn't pay advances and appears to publis..."

Not necessarily, Tim. Publishing houses will often not pay advances for first-time authors and instead agree to pay 40% in royalties and incur all expenses for themselves. And I think it's a bit presumptuous to tell Leonie who and what she has signed with, unless you are familiar with how her publication does business?

[Matthew]

My apologies, it sounds like you are actually familiar with their services. And as for advantages, the only one would be that someone else is handling the leg work and promotions (what they have access to at any rate), which for some is a welcome relief. I have no agent and got no advance. But I am a first-time author and therefore wasn't expecting one.

[Leonie]

Well, from my perspective - Hague has been an excellent publisher, Tim. No, I haven't had an advance, but small press usually doesn't, and are completely up front about it. I knew that when I signed with them.

But I also haven't paid any up front costs, have been edited, proofread and provided with cover art.

They are also not only ebook. Initially they were - and up front about that too. There was an option to go to paperback POD in my contract - should my sales do well enough, which they did.

Now, some years down the track, all their books go to POD.

My contract was assessed by a law firm and is a fairly standard industry contract - but I still own both the audiobook rights and any movie rights. (In my dreams!)

So I'm guessing your issue with Hague is the lack of advances? Because from my perspective that's the only thing that differs. Sure, a large publisher will have a massive marketing arm, but judging by recent comments by big name published authors in my genre at a convention a month ago, I sold at the top end of the Australian market last year.

I'm not unhappy with that.

[Matthew]

Well, that and the lack of TV, radio, and national reviews. However, to answer your question, Peter, it will sounds they still offer services that any author would want - professional editing and proofreading and publishing - which can be a real hassle to have to do all on your own. I for one hate editing and proofreading, it's slow and arduous and takes time away from the creative process, which is what I love. I happily concede that responsibility to a publisher since they are also far more qualified to do it.

[Marie Silk]

I went directly to the indie route. I wanted to know my story was in print, somewhere out there, and self-publishing seemed the most efficient way to make that a reality. I just wrapped up my 8-book series and I'm sure I will self-publish more books after this :).

[Matthew]

Tim wrote: "Matthew wrote: I happily concede that responsibility to a publisher since they are also far more qualified to do it.

I would not trust an editor with an ebook publisher as far as I can throw them..."

Uh, okay. Well speaking for myself, I don't entertain notions of superiority when it comes to editors. I am willing to entrust my work to people who actually have experience in this area and would not think that just because I got my way, I was right and more qualified than they are. Sure we might disagree in the end, but making such blatant generalizations from one encounter seems awful arrogant.

[Matthew]

Marie Silk wrote: "I went directly to the indie route. I wanted to know my story was in print, somewhere out there, and self-publishing seemed the most efficient way to make that a reality. I just wrapped up my 8-boo..."

How have sales, promotions, etc worked out for you? Have you done any signings and/or interview?

[[deleted user]]

I believe that an important point was forgotten in the discussions in this thread: the reason why so many writers decide to go the indie route. Basically, traditional publishers are accepting to take and print only a tiny percentage of the manuscripts proposed to them. Yes, they cannot print everything and they cannot take huge bets on new, unknown authors, but the choices editors make too often have to do with the biases and personal tastes of those editors, who will often take the 'safe bet' of choosing to print books by already known authors. Maybe their logic is understandable, but that leaves tens of thousands of willing authors unable to get published the traditional way. So, is it so surprising that all those ignored authors go the indie route? I myself tried for years to get published through a printing house, but grew tired of being ignored or told a platitude like 'your book does not corresponds to our current literary trend'.

[Matthew]

Michel wrote: "I believe that an important point was forgotten in the discussions in this thread: the reason why so many writers decide to go the indie route. Basically, traditional publishers are accepting to ta..."

And let's not forget the role played by new media. It is because of the birth of ereaders, ebooks, and torrents that publishing houses are taking less in the way of risks. Paradoxically, it is this same new media that is making it possible for indie authors to self-publish their books, take them directly to market and promote them.

[Marie Silk]

Matthew wrote: How have sales, promotions, etc worked out for you? Have you done any signings and/or interview? "

I haven't done signings or face-to-face interviews. I've answered a few dozen blog interviews over email, but sales are mostly from promotions arranged through Kindle Select and with ebook marketing sites. I appreciate that I can control the pricing of my books. As I understand it, this is not possible to do if you are trad published. Running promotions has been the best thing for my series. I run them regularly to keep sales going.

[Leonie]

My point is, Leonie, they are not "trad" publishers. If the definition of a trad publisher was "submit your manuscript to us and we will not pay you a penny and not market your work to any to a national audience" then Hague would still struggle for any publishing legitimacy with regard the term "traditional"

As far as I'm concerned, the term 'traditional publishing' means effectively at no cost to the author, with the publisher taking on all financial risk, and not publishing everything that pops across the editor's desk.

It's not just 'Big Four/Five' publishing, complete with massive advance. Small press in Australia (particularly in genre publishing) is well respected.

The term is used particularly in contrast to what used to be called 'vanity publishing' and is now often called 'hybrid' or 'subsidy' publishing which is also in direct contrast to the terms 'self' or 'indie publishing.' In fact, that's why I specified small press. Once upon a time, I would have used the term 'indie' - meaning independent press, but this term now usually means self published.

In addition, no matter your opinion of Hague, garnered from whatever you've looked at on the internet, your sentence above could not be further from the reality of my own, personal experience. Sure, Hague is not a big publisher, but they are honest, pay well (and yes, my royalties have been rather nice in the last twelve months in particular), and do advertise on my behalf.

[Matthew]

It's Matthew, Tim, not Michael. And as I said, that one experience (and, apparently, what you've heard from some other people) is hardly justification for calling all editors morons and amateurs. That is definitely arrogant. I'm sure you've had your experiences and they are welcome, but let's not any of us presume that we are in a position to tell others what they should be doing just because we happen to have an opinion about it.

[Leonie]

Matthew wrote: "Michel wrote: "I believe that an important point was forgotten in the discussions in this thread: the reason why so many writers decide to go the indie route. Basically, traditional publishers are ..."

I think this is a really good point, and one of the big pros of indie publishing. Certainly every writers' festival where the publishing industry is represented has indicated that the whole thing is in a constant state of flux, and no-one is certain exactly where it's all heading.

Whether the risk averse big publishers will do themselves out of business by avoiding new authors, or not supporting their mid list (a real thing by all accounts) could be a real possibility. At the same time, there's the issues of quality control, which affects all types of publishing and the reader who likes instant gratification but isn't always necessarily wanting to pay for it.

[Matthew]

"I would not trust an editor with an ebook publisher as far as I can throw them. Amateurs."

Your words. As for idiots vs. morons, c'mon man, that's a split hair at best! And just an observation, but it seemed like you were affecting an air of "you got ripped off there!" with Leonie. Not an accusation, I'm just trying to make sure no one feels disrespected, mainly because I'm moderating this thread. But of course, that includes you too. You're experiences are always valid and welcome :)

Thanks or the list, I just might peruse that. I'm set for now, but in the future I will be trying to renegotiate my contract with my publisher (or, you know, find a new one!) I would be lying if I said I wasn't expecting an advance, and I definitely want one in future deals.

[Leonie]

And just an observation, but it seemed like you were affecting an air of "you got ripped off there!" with Leonie. That was my impression, I admit, whether you meant it that way or not.

But thanks for the list too, I'll peruse it. We have a total lack of agents in Australia, and here, it isn't completely necessary, either. Most bigger name authors here who have been more recently picked up by big name publishers acquire them after they've done the deal, particularly if they're genre fiction.

[Matthew]

Look at us! Getting along all nicely :)

[J.J.]

Here's a question I have coming away from this discussion: if the only reason to go with a traditional is the marketing, then why are there not marketing companies out there that can successfully take that one for you without giving up the rights to a work? Indie publishing has allowed authors to turn this business into something a la carte - ie. we can contract out our cover designs, our editing, our marketing, etc. Essentially we can put in an investment to get those services while retaining full control of our work, yet it feels (at least to me) that the marketing industry associated with ebooks is more "wild west" than any other part. A lot of people pretend to be marketers - "We'll promote your book on Twitter!" Then you have some of the most coveted marketers like Bookbub which have adopted a somewhat elitist attitude, requiring you to do a lot of legwork and build your brand before they'll even take on the role (in all fairness to them, I can understand how they'd be overwhelmed and the marketing diminished if they weren't selective) - it leaves me wondering why I'd want their service if I've already built my work up to their level in the first place.

I know I'm just rambling here, but I guess this aspect is as confusing in other industries as well with companies like say P&G trying to figure out how to reach consumers in the new Digital Age.

[Ian]

In my case the reason for going Indie is simple - I live in a country without agents willing to take on genre fiction, particularly SF, and there are no small presses other than special subsidised ones that only take on "literary fiction", "fiction by maori authors", and maybe local historical fiction. Overseas agents expect you to be close to do the marketing. Now there is the odd person who has managed to avoid this trap, but they tended to be some time ago when there were more publishers. So, in my case, it was self-publish or file in drawer/disk.

[Nat]

I am traditionally published 1 fantasy book with a small press and I self publish gay fantasy/erotica, under separate aliases.

I've tried to sell my second trad book, but no bites.

I'm working on my third self-published novel.

Since I published with a small press, I didn't have tons of promotional support. A little. I did get to do an in person book launch and book signings, of which I haven't done on the selfie side. The trad publisher also got me book reviews with Publishers Weekly and the like. I've nothing like that for my self-pubbed line.

Both have been a lot of work. Though I didn't have to pay for my editing or cover on my trad book.

I will continue doing both branches, though I realize neither will be heavily prolific if I split myself. I might change my mind at any moment.

**Though this all depends on if a traditional press/publishing agent picks me up, as well. Querying/what sells right then/the market all play a part in their choices that have nothing to do with how well a book is written.

[Marie Silk]

I'm still mystified as to how to succeed in the paperbook and audio markets as a self-published author. However, I think indies have the upper hand when it comes to the ebook market, at least for now. We can control the pricing and even offer our books for free as a marketing strategy. With many trad ebooks costing $8 and up, we have the chance to use that in our favor to undercut the competition and dominate the ebook market.

The only pricing I can't control is on my audiobooks, so I feel like I'm really hitting a wall there. The contract I signed with ACX gives them exclusive distribution rights.