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Discussion Nine – Scylla and Charybdis
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In the old days, I used to think this chapter was hella scary "recondite," but I really liked reading it this time.Not as difficult as I'd imagined.
As someone notes somewhere, this era (c. 1904) was the height of speculative biography of Shakespeare... Wilde, Shaw, Brandes, Frank Harris.. (that's three Irish out of four),
Yeah, this is where Stephen lays out his Hamlet theory. I'm still working through my interpretation, of--his--interpretation.
Tracy wrote: "Yeah, this is where Stephen lays out his Hamlet theory. I'm still working through my interpretation, of--his--interpretation."He makes a lot of allusions to Elizabethan literature and lore. Drummond of Hawthornden and all that. (D of H was Boswell to Ben Jonson)
What does it boil down to? That Ann Hathaway seduced young Will Shakespeare and then had extramarital affairs with one of his brothers. That is the message that the Ghost of Hamlet (played by Shakespeare himself on the stage) brings to his "ghost" son, Hamnet, viz, Hamlet.
I think Joyce says in one of his tables that one version of Scylla and Charybdis is Stratford and London.
But I love the self-reference: the Irish national epic has yet to be written. You could put your theory in the form of a Platonic dialogue.
For me the Library chapter is about the ghost. Specifically, Joyce seems fascinated by the fact that in this 400 year old play, where a ghost is the driving force for all the action, and yet we know that there are no ghosts; but no one ever points to the play and accuses it of being a fantasy: a Harry Potter so to speak. It is a play that has always been considered basically realistic, and yet all the action depends upon something that is not real. So I think the chapter in a sense is a commentary on Art, and how audiences have always been willing to suspend their sense of what is real or possible temporarily, to be entertained.After Molly's introduction in Calypso she is hardly ever on stage until the end, and yet she is always "in" the play. Every chapter up to this point Molly has either been in Bloom's thoughts or mentioned in conversations with other characters, or both. So where is Molly in this chapter? Ah, Anne Hathaway: one adulteress standing in for another.
Mark wrote: "For me the Library chapter is about the ghost. Specifically, Joyce seems fascinated by the fact that in this 400 year old play, where a ghost is the driving force for all the action, and yet we kno..."Those are good observations I hadn't thought of, Mark! Of course this episode has to have a Molly stand-in since it's from Stephen's pov.
Thanks Tracy! - )One of my old commentary books, I think it's Kain's, he doesn't even consider Molly one of the main characters. Of course today we know she is. I think it's very clever on Joyce's part that one of his three protagonists can be so a part of the story, without hardly ever being physically present. (Like a ghost? Just kidding.)
Christopher wrote: "In the old days, I used to think this chapter was hella scary "recondite," but I really liked reading it this time.Not as difficult as I'd imagined.
As someone notes somewhere, this era (c. 1904..."
I agree. With each subsequent re-read even the most difficult chapters become much clearer.
Ok, so about the title: Scylla and Charybdis: the deadly Whirlpool and the deadly 6 headed Monster on the rock. Odysseus chooses the lesser of two evils as the 6 headed monster. So who stands in for what here? Stephen unexpectedly goes off with Mulligan at the end (after first bumping into Bloom?) after claiming he wouldn't spend the night at Sandymount...are the listeners of the Shakespeare theory somehow Scylla?
I'm not very good at the parallels or correspondences, so I will cheat here. From the introduction to episode 9 in my Gifford, Annotated there is this.Correspondences:
The Rock {on which the Scylla dwells}--Aristotle, dogma, Stratford
The Whirlpool {Charybdis}--Plato, mysticism, London
I'm not sure Stephen's leaving with Mulligan is that unexpected. He was suppose to meet Mulligan and Haines at The Ship at half twelve to start their drinking fest. Which Stephan was going to pay for. But Stephen sends Mulligan a telegram saying...something, and Mulligan has come looking for him (Stephen) because he's thristy and Stephen has the money.
There is also this in the next chapter, page 242, Stephen thinking:"Between two roaring worlds where they swirl, I."
Not sure what he means, but it is sort of similar.
Mark wrote: "There is also this in the next chapter, page 242, Stephen thinking:"Between two roaring worlds where they swirl, I."
Not sure what he means, but it is sort of similar."
Oh, that's directly from the Odyssey: Odysseus has to go through this treacherous path in the boat. On one side is Scylla, the Rock with 6 monster heads that will eat men whole. On the other side is Charybdis, the killer whirlpool that will take the entire ship down. In the Odyssey he chooses to go nearer Scylla and lose a few men rather than the whole ship. Your book is numbered much differently than mine, but I will try to find your line..oh, you said the NEXT chapter!
Stephen does agree to meet Mulligan at the beginning, but I half thought he's trying to wiggle out of it--hence the telegram--As Buck comes in with an "Amen!" to Stephen's climactic peak in his Shakespeare lecture, the text reads, seemingly not as dialogue: Hast thou found me O mine enemy? (assuming those are SD's thoughts). Then we get entr'acte--with Buck we return to talk of Wilde, oddly.
The telegram is rather cryptic and says "The sentimentalist is he who would enjoy without encurring the immense debtorship for a thing done." I think that goes back to the argument we had in the Sandymount intro--who is in debt to who? My reading, to match my interpretation of the 1st episode, is that Stephen is telling a serious joke that is to chide Buck for laying claim to his salary for the night's entertainment--it handily works both ways. Buck should be enjoying their living arrangement without pressing a "debt" on Stephen, and Stephen should keep himself from feeling the weight/the guilt of that debt. It's a rather obtuse way of avoiding the set meeting perhaps, forcing Buck to seek him out.
Is there another possible way to read this? Maybe in a way this whole episode is about debts/vows--the others being about broken marriage vows and other familial relationships.
I'm not sure if SD thinks it's good to be a sentimentalist.
Very interesting reading! I have struggled with that "sentimentalist" line forever. I forget how we left the discussion of Telemachus. I've always felt that to make the last line "Usurper" work, Stephen is the one who is paying the rent. Mulligan's financial situation is never really exposed. He is a medical student. It does seem from some things Stephen says that he does owe Mulligan some money, along with a lot of other people.Yes, I agree, for whatever reason Stephen is trying to avoid Mulligan.
Sentimental is such a tricky word. Critics over the years have aggressively accused Joyce of being sentimental, especially with the ending of the Circe chapter. But there is a non-sappy definition of sentimental that no one ever notices; where it can mean expressing sophisticated and refined feelings. But I don't know how it is being used here by Stephen.
As far as our books are concerned: I'm using a '61 Random House paperback; but I also have a Dover '09 facsimile, reprint of the original Shakespeare & Co 1922. Which I can cross reference with.
Any time Stephen is on stage the reading is going to be difficult!Proteus, Library, and Oxen of the Sun.
Yes, Molly is central to Bloom's story: married sixteen years!
The Random House edition quite strikingly puts the first word of each part on a single page: S... tately plump Buck Mulligan,M..r Leoplod Bloom ate with reslish, and P... reparatory to anything else.
I think the two explanations are that these initials stand for "subject," "middle,: and "predicate," as in a syllogism, but also for "Stephen," (part one) "Molly," (part two) and "Poldy," (part three)-
anyway, that's what I think of when you say Molly is "central" to the novel, although she isn't there except in episode 4 and (of course) 18.
I like the syllogism idea!Of course the big letters are a post-Joyce invention.
Molly's arm does make a cameo in Wandering Rocks.
For me Ulysses is a study of marriage. And even though Molly is hardly ever physically present, she is paramount in Bloom's thoughts the entire day.
Mark wrote: "I like the syllogism idea!Of course the big letters are a post-Joyce invention.
Molly's arm does make a cameo in Wandering Rocks.
For me Ulysses is a study of marriage. And even though Molly is ha..."
We will come to Wandering Rocks anon.. but isn't it the housemaid with the policeman boyfriend whose arm appears?
She does whack it, by George.
I apologize for jumping ahead, but the moderator has been pretty lenient with us so far. The identity of the arm is ambiguous.The housemaid that Bloom ogles while waiting in line at the butchers is identified as "the nextdoor girl, who has "strong...arms".
With the scene in Rocks, there seems to be some internal evidence to point to Molly.
The whistling: Molly's a singer.
The "Unfurnished Apartments": we learn at some point that the Bloom's are trying to rent Milly's old room.
The "plump bare generous arm": as opposed to the "strong... arms". (Along with the lovely "play" on generous.)
The description of the underwear: "white petticoatbodice and taut shiftstraps": we know that Molly is getting dressed to entertain Boylan later today; and we've already seen the maid fully clothed and working.
And the description saying "A woman's hand flung forth": rather than a girl's.
Mod
You've been reasonable about your forward-looking comments, so no need to intervene...
I just posted discussions for Episode 10 - 12
Mark wrote: "I apologize for jumping ahead, but the moderator has been pretty lenient with us so far. The identity of the arm is ambiguous.The housemaid that Bloom ogles while waiting in line at the butchers i..."
Those are all very good points. I hadn't thought about the Blooms trying to rent a room.
Cool! Thanks! I know, I think I know, that somewhere in the book the room renting idea is mention. It may be in Ithaca when Bloom is thinking about Stephen, or it may be in Penelope when Molly is thinking about Stephen. I'm going to have to do some digging! - )
I thought for sure there was something later in the book that confirmed Molly tossing the coin to the sailor...maybe in her soliloquy? Maybe I dreamed it.
I think there is something too. But at the moment it is eluding me!
Bryan wrote: "I thought for sure there was something later in the book that confirmed Molly tossing the coin to the sailor...maybe in her soliloquy? Maybe I dreamed it."That was in Wandering Rocks--a hand from withdraws a card advertising a room, and throws a coin..kids pick it up and hand it to the vet. Later, the card is placed back a 7 Eccles St. (Blooms' house) by the same arm, which must be Molly's. I guess while Blazes is buying her peaches and pears...
Scene: The Library
Hour: 2 pm
Organ: Brain
Art: Literature
Symbol: Stratford / London
Technic: Dialectic
Stephen speaks of Shakespeare and fatherhood in the library. Stephen and Bloom have another close encounter.
An interesting passage:
Art has to reveal to us ideas, formless spiritual essences. The supreme question about a work of art is out of how deep a life does it spring. The painting of Gustave Moreau is the painting of ideas. The deepest poetry of Shelley, the words of Hamlet bring our mind into contact with the eternal wisdom, Plato’s world of ideas. All the rest is the speculation of schoolboys for schoolboys.