Dresden Files discussion
Thoughts on Changes 2017
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What a great description of Mac's place!
Mac said, in his "speech," when Harry told him the news about Maggie, that Harry would find out where he drew the line. When he tells Murphy the rest of the world can burn, if it means saving Maggie, he draws that line. And it is way far out.
I'll begin another reread when Peace Talks is about to come out. CHANGES is probably my favourite Dresden Files book, so aptly named - even the title breaks the usual pattern and basically EVERYTHING that was a constant before changes...
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I was never clear on Uriel's role in everything. I'm looking out for clues but so far, I don't see anything more than what's been said. Uriel said he had done all he could. Only I don't remember what that was. I do remember being confused at the end, where he had apparently revealed something he did, but I hadn't seen it. Clearly I'm missing something here.
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Mac said Harry would learn where he drew his lines, and which he'd cross. Instead, Harry erased all the lines.
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I think Harry just couldn't do it, until he had the additional impetus of needing to save Maggie. I doubt it even occurred to Harry in Arctis Tor that the mantle might come to him. Although he felt sorry for Slate, and probably would have done anything else possible to ease Slate's misery, Harry just couldn't kill him in cold blood. If Slate had been threatening someone, Harry would have stopped him without hesitation, but this was a completely different situation.
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So as far as I can tell, the assignments went like this:
Lea as Gandalf
Susan as Aragorn
Martin as Boromir
Thomas as Legolas
Mouse as Gimli
Harry as Sam
They did not say who got Frodo, Pippin, or Merry. So who do you guys think got which character?
My guess is Karrin got Frodo, Sanya and Molly get either Pippin or Merry.
Molly would have gotten Pippin, since she's by far the youngest, and the least suited for walking into a battle. :-)
Monica wrote: "Just finished the traumatizing scene where Harry breaks his back then calls on Uriel. Heartbreaking. I was never clear on Uriel's role in everything. I'm looking out for clues but so far, I don't ..."
I have had that confusion too. Could it be that Sanya showing up when he did was all Uriel could do at that point? Then when the Shadow whispered at the church Uriel was able to get involved more ?
Uriel's role, and what he can and cannot do, is explained at the end of Ghost Story. If you haven't read it yet, I won't give anything away. :-)
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Like the shadow whispering. Does that refer to when he thought he was just remembering the death curse on him to "die alone"? That was the only thing that happened after he was left alone, before calling on Uriel, then Mab.
I was trying to avoid spoilers, but since you say you've already read it....... :-)When Harry was lying in the church with his back broken, thinking to himself that everyone around him was going to be harmed because of him, there was one sentence in his thoughts that went: "And it was all your fault, Harry." It seemed like he was speaking to himself, but that one sentence was whispered to him by Lasciel to nudge him further in his despair and to cause him to take the action he was so close to taking - to give himself to Mab in exchange for the power to save Maggie.
At the end of Ghost Story, Uriel points that out to Harry and explains that he, Uriel, could only interfere to the point of countering the interference by Lasciel, in the form of seven whispered words. And he sent Harry back to Mab believing that Uriel had done nothing to redress the balance - until Mab told him over and over that Harry was hers, that he would become a monster for her, and Uriel whispered seven words to Harry: "Lies. She cannot change who you are."
And don't forget the 'Soul Fire' Harry was given access to.
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But I see now how it's all kind of subjective on who was acting on who. They were pushing Harry, but not forcing his hand.
Don't feel dumb! I lost count of how many times I've reread the series, and I never put all the pieces together until this week, when I just finished rereading Ghost Story again. Jim Butcher is just that skillful a writer. :-)
Karyn wrote: "I was trying to avoid spoilers, but since you say you've already read it....... :-)When Harry was lying in the church with his back broken, thinking to himself that everyone around him was going ..."
Was that Mab he was claiming was lying? If so, then is this a case of Fae lying or a case of Fae being able to say what they believe is true not counting as a lie? That's a pretty significant loophole in the "Fae can't lie" rule if so.
I wondered about that, but I think the loophole could be that she was talking about something that would happen in the future, and she could always be wrong. The Fae can't make a direct, factual statement that isn't true - but they can mislead in every other possible way. It wasn't a magical prophecy or anything, just a prediction of what was likely to happen - and we all know that Harry never does what others expect him to. :-)
The Fae cannot tell a lie, but that is specifically defined as making a statement you know to be untrue. That means that yes, Mab *CAN* make a direct, factual statement that isn't true, *AS LONG AS SHE BELIEVES IT IS TRUE*.That's the real key. Think ahead to Cold Days: (view spoiler)
IIRC (I'm at work and can't check my copy), Mab was telling him that he would become all that for her, not that she would turn him into that kind of monster herself.
And let's face it, Mab honestly believes she can, in the end, make anyone do anything she wants.
Then there's the Winter Knight's Mantle, which is trying very, very hard to turn Harry into a raving monster completely controlled by his desires. Believe me, she knows all about that mantle and what it does to those who hold it.
I think Uriel wasn't referring to a specific falsehood spoken, but to the fact that Harry thinks he has no option but to become the monster that Mab and the Winter Mantle would turn him into.Those 7 words are what give Harry hope that he can be himself and not compromise on his values and still wield the mantle.
At the end of Ghost Story, Uriel was very specific when he told Harry that those seven specific words were not Harry's own thought, but had been whispered to him by Lasciel. Those words did, as you point out, lead Harry to the belief that he was already responsible for harming his friends and on the downward slide to becoming a monster. Mab's words were designed to push him further, but Uriel whispered seven words to Harry to reassure him - all he was allowed to do to counter the actions of Lasciel.
Karyn wrote: "At the end of Ghost Story, Uriel was very specific when he told Harry that those seven specific words were not Harry's own thought, but had been whispered to him by Lasciel. Those words did, as you..."I agree with you 100%. Also Uriel had mention that because Lasciel made contact with Harry 1st (the Devil side), Uriel was be able to counter her deeds (the Haven/God side). It was said in the books, that everything in the JB world is balanced. If one of the sides starts to interact/influence with humans, the other side has a right to do the same. So Uriel's hands was tied up at church, when Harry asks him to interfere. He didn't wish to open the door for the Devil, so to speak. By helping Harry in Ghost Story, Uriel is balancing the scale.
Also when Uriel later gives his Grace to Michael, he's acting on his own free will. That's all he could have done without overstepping and changing the balance of powers.
I think I started a thread about this on this board, but are we sure that that shadow was Lasciel? Isn't Anduriel (Nicodamus's fallen) the master of shadows? Or was it some other heavy hitter (Lucifer maybe) that Uriel got directly involved?
Uriel told Harry at the end of Ghost Story that the shadow that whispered to him was Lasciel. You're right, Anduriel is also known as the Master of Shadows (or perhaps that was referring to Nicodemus?) and Anduriel takes the form of Nicodemus' shadow.
Actually, Uriel never told Harry that it was Lasciel, just that the Fallen had cheated. In fact, Uriel never refers to that particular Fallen during the conversation as anything other than 'it' or 'that being'. Plus he shows Harry the scene externally, where the Fallen animated his shadow to whisper into his mind.People here generally assume it was Lasciel because (view spoiler)
The other thing that points to Lasciel is that Butcher said both Lash and Lashiel were in Changes. That is honestly the only thing keeping me from saying it HAS to be Anduriel.
Huh. I could have sworn Uriel said outright that it was Lasciel, or at least that perhaps Harry named her and Uriel acquiesced. But I may be wrong on that. Thanks, Taliesyn!
Nah, I went and reread the appropriate sections before replying (yay Kindle app), and at no point is Lasciel ever confirmed as (or even suggested to be) the Fallen who did the whispering.The strongest evidence, honestly, is Butcher's comment about her being in Changes.
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This struck me more strongly now, after finishing Changes, perhaps b/c I'm not in the midst of it, as Harry is at that moment. And the reality of what he's saying here is really sinking in. He was willing to kill a lot of people, in cold blood. He was ready to murder anyone he had to.
Does anyone think he'd have gone through with that? If he found himself with weapon in hand, and a person in front of him, would he kill them? What would he be after that, if he did? Not sure he wouldn't be worse off than as the Winter Knight.
I don't think he would have done that. He was always more likely to try and pay the price himself rather than having innocents die.
Gotta agree. That was Harry's emotions speaking, not his logic. If push came to shove, I don't think he'd have been able to sacrifice a city - or even a neighborhood - full of innocents even to save his daughter.And he would never have forgiven himself either way.
Taliesyn wrote: "Gotta agree. That was Harry's emotions speaking, not his logic. If push came to shove, I don't think he'd have been able to sacrifice a city - or even a neighborhood - full of innocents even to sav..."This.
Monica wrote: "This will sound a bit inane, but I was browsing the comments in this thread and was struck by a comment I wrote. I commented on Harry's conviction to do whatever was necessary to save Maggie. He sa..."Just wanted to say, long time lurker, I love following your thought processes about these books. I need to start re-reading so I can be more confident about joining in, but I'm always intrigued when I get an email with the subject "Topics from Dresden Files"!!
Taliesyn wrote: If push came to shove, I don't think he'd have been able to sacrifice a city - or even a neighborhood - full of innocents even to sav..."I don't know about that. People do amazing things when it comes to their children, especially an orphan like Harry.
I've been putting off starting Changes. Wasn't ready for the trauma! But it's time...