The Old Curiosity Club discussion
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Our Mutual Friend
Our Mutual Friend
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OMF, Book 1, Chp. 11-13
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There is only one person in the world who could even think, let alone articulate, that thought in June.
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Dickens goes on to talk about top sawyers and bottom sawyers. References that may have passed without notice by most readers, but wouldn't have in Dickens's day, and are clear as a bell to woodworkers with any sense of the history of building or woodworking.
In the days before mechanized sawmills, the way in which trees were made into boards were two. One was to chop notches in the side of the tree and then knock the notches off to make a roughly flat surface and then smooth it with a broad axe and an adz. You want to see how this works?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au1Tb...
However, the English way was the sawpit. You would dig a pit, almost like the pit that auto mechanics used before lifts became more ubiquitous, put the tree across it, and have one person on top of the log and one down in the pit sawing, like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV_K8...
Of course, the one on the bottom got all the sawdust drifting down into his eyes and face and hair and down his neck, unless he had a good hat on. And this is exactly what Dickens is referring to when he wrote "Every street was a sawpit, and there were no top-sawyers; every passenger was an under-sawyer, with the sawdust blinding him and choking him."
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I think the difference is that in OMF there aren't, at least so far, any convoluted family relationships we have to keep track of.
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But there are a lot more than 17 (or, with the Podsnaps, 20) people in that room!
Everyman wrote: "LindaH wrote: "Re line Kim quoted, "The wind sawed, and the sawdust whirled.": I'm not sure what it refers to. "Dickens goes on to talk about top sawyers and bottom sawyers. References that may h..."
Also, a top-sawyer was slang for a person who could drive to an inch, whose driving ability was to be much admired.
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Perhaps because he was the one who could see the line they were supposed to be sawing to and was responsible for keeping the saw on the line.
Everyman wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Also, a top-sawyer was slang for a person who could drive to an inch, whose driving ability was to be much admired. "Perhaps because he was the one who could see the line they were ..."
Maybe! A man who knew how to drive a carriage, especially a sporting phaeton or curricle with expertise was considered a top-sawyer. Even back then, men were all about showing off in their vehicles! ;)
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I would think it vital for the success of a person as a rogue that they do not seem like a rogue at first, and second, sight. :-)
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Whereas I would easily put it past Riderhood to kill a man, I think that in this particular situation, his interest is in making sure that Hexam is arrested alive. He cannot be very sure of cashing in on his reward if the man he claims to be the murderer of Harmon is dead - although when he is alive, he might prove his innocence.
Mr Podsnap is a man who is very sure of his own righteousness. He certainly, unlike his poor daughter, has no self-effacing qualities. He is, as Kim says, 'his own favorite character.' (You see how I have adhered to American spelling here just so that I represent Kim correctly. :D). Furthermore Mr Podsnap is the epitome of 19th century racism. I cringed, while being greatly amused, at how he just does away with the whole European continent with one fell swoop (of his right arm!). Then it dawned on me: the UK today with its Brexiteers and far-right politics has not advanced much, or at all, in regard to the 'foreigner' on our shores. Some of the rhetoric that they spout could be penned by Dickens. I'm sure that he would be horrified to find that his caricature is alive and well.
Poor, poor Georgiana! What shocking parents she has. The poor girl doesn't have a chance. She constantly compares herself with her mother. Mama Podsnap only seems to care about Mama Podsnap. She forces her poor daughter into odious situations and is so full of herself that she doesn't notice or even care to notice that her own daughter is being crushed under the weight of it all. Who cares that it's Georgiana's birthday so long as Mrs P has the opportunity to shine?!
I think that Riderhood is a fascinating character. He's someone I love to hate. In the audio with David Timson, Rogue Riderhood has a husky sort of Cockney accent, I think. I exploded with laughter when he insisted on his needing to be 'took down' and his signing of the 'Alfred David'. I can just imagine Dickens with a wicked gleam in his eye as he wrote that. I do wonder if the Rogue has been involved in some very shady dealings. Could he have murdered Hexam? Then I'm also uncomfortable with Eugene as Mary Lou has mentioned and also Linda and Cindy? I wasn't sure what to make of his looking through the window at Lizzie by the firelight and then the strange behaviour with the drawing of the lady and repeatedly touching it. It's true, of course, that this may have simply been an absentminded doodle with pursuant mannerism. We just don't know yet ...
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Yes. I too think we need to keep an eye on Eugene - but perhaps not through a window :-)) He is rather an odious person so far.
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Tristram wrote: " linguistic fingerprints."Nicely put, Tristram.
Tristram wrote: "Whereas I would easily put it past Riderhood to kill a man, I think that in this particular situation, his interest is in making sure that Hexam is arrested alive. He cannot be very sure of cashing in on his reward if the man he claims to be the murderer of Harmon is dead..."Curses! I forgot about the reward. You're right--he'll need Hexam to be alive to collect. Oh, well, Miss Marple I'm not! ;)
And I, too, love your phrase "linguistic fingerprints." Very apt!
Kim said "Sometimes I wonder if it is ever sunny in England. Jean?"I wonder that myself too on occasion! Yesterday we got drenched through, and today is forecast to be the same, with the wind and rain swirling around the caravan. Apparently it will clear by about midnight, and we will have a dry night. Well that's alright then ;)
On the other hand we had had a few days of really sunny weather, with those puffy white cumulus clouds, and the scenery looked quite beautiful. You'd have hated the heat Kim!
I guess that in this novel Dickens is painting a gloomy, mud-soaked quagmire of a river area for us - and doing it very effectively!
I laughed and laughed at "Alfred David" as I had quite fixed the name in my mind as being another new character Dickens had introduced!
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I, too, have a soft spot for puns, and as I said elsewhere, I found it very funny how Mr Boffin turned all the Roman names from Gibbon into English ones, e.g. Polybius into Polly Beeios, or Belisarius into Bully Sawyers, remarking of the latter that his conduct is unworthy of his English origins.
Oh they were a hoot, yes Tristram :) I'm also enjoying the word "Podsnappery", which we still use. The dictionary defines it as "smug self-satisfaction and a lack of interest in the affairs of others". It was nice to meet the original for it!
We met the original character on whom "Pecksniffian" was based: Seth Pecksniff in Martin Chuzzlewit. The dictionary defines "Pecksniffian" as "hypocritically and unctuously affecting benevolence or high moral principles", but I like "Podsnappery" just as much :)
A "Scrooge"' as meaning a skinflint has passed into our vernacular, and I think "Pickwickian" has too, but these are a little less well known, perhaps.
Mary Lou - I had exactly the same reaction as you "I get a little stab in my heart on behalf of Catherine" when I read the barbed comment about sparrows repenting of their marriages. I'll be interested to read what you think of Claire Tomalin's biography when you finish it. I ended up preferring the film!
Tristram - I have to admit that I assumed a musical connection with "double-barrelled whisper". I think I hear people with a raspy voice sometimes sounding two different pitches at once, in "harmony" as it were. But I could be completely off the mark here.
Everyman - Thank you so much for your explanation of "top sawyers and bottom sawyers". It all makes far more sense now!
Jean wrote: "Mary Lou - I had exactly the same reaction as you "I get a little stab in my heart on behalf of Catherine" when I read the barbed comment about sparrows repenting of their marriages. I'll be intere..."I'll have to start it first, Jean! It might be awhile. So many books....
As for the names becoming part of our English vernacular, here in the US, Scrooge would be the most commonly used word, moreso than Podsnappery, Pecksniffian, or Pickwickian (and don't forget the use of "Gamp" for an umbrella, which I think is considered archaic at this point). A certain talk show host used to end his show with quirky words, and succeeded in bringing "Pecksniffian" to the masses, but it still wouldn't have topped Scrooge.
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I wonder that myself too on occasion!"
Meanwhile the purportedly soggy Pacific Northwest just broke a string of over 30 dry days with a tiny sprinkling of moisture -- 6/100 of an inch at our house, just enough to get the porch damp. Otherwise, we have had a dry, dry, dry June and July, and no further moisture in sight for at least the next 10 days (that's as far out as my weather forecasting page goes). Our lawn is completely brown (our well can't provide enough water to keep it wet, so we just let it go brown, and it recovers each fall) except where the drainfield outflow is, which is nice and green!
Hi Mary Lou - I'm not sure Gamp counts in the same way, as Mrs Gamp herself wasn't very umbrella-like ;) I was really thinking of words to describe behaviour, which originated from characters in Dickens. I'm wondering how many others we will find!
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Sounds like Pennsylvania.
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I wonder that myself too on occasion! Yesterday we got drenched through, and today is forecast to be the same, with the wind and..."
The heat is awful here, I think so anyway, and if I loose my sunglasses, which I have twice this week, I can hardly bring myself to go out into that migraine inducing bright, bright, bright sunlight. Tonight on the news it was very nice of our weatherman to talk about cooler days ahead. It's only supposed to get into the 80's, not the 90s this week. Yipee.
Oh, 80 degrees is 26.666 degrees Celsius. I looked it up of course. And 90 is 32.222 or something like that. At least it looks cold to me.
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I wonder that myself too on occasion! Yesterday we got drenched through, and today is forecast to be the same, with..."
Kim
If you moved to the Pacific NW, say the State of Washington, you would enjoy cooler temperatures. As an added bonus Everyman and Linda would be close by and I'm just across the border.
Just think ... ocean, snow-capped mountains and Pickwickian neighbours.
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Peter wrote: "If you moved to the Pacific NW, say the State of Washington, you would enjoy cooler temperatures. "Sounds wonderful right now. In January, maybe not as good. :-)
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I always considered myself the original for this one :-(
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Podsnappery, however, has a very nice ring to it. It somehow expresses its meaning in its sound.
Jean wrote: "Oh they were a hoot, yes Tristram :) I'm also enjoying the word "Podsnappery", which we still use. The dictionary defines it as "smug self-satisfaction and a lack of interest in the affairs of others". It was nice to meet the original for it!..."
I was quite taken with the word as soon as I saw it. I'm delighted that it has a real-world application and is actually used! You don't hear "podsnappery" too much here in Texas, which, in my opinion, makes a visit to England even more of an imperative for me! ;)
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Me too.
To be honest, you don't hear it used in England very often either! But occasionally perhaps ...LOL Tristram!
Does anyone have the Michael Slater biography of Dickens to hand? I've just learned that he believed that John Forster was the model for Podsnap, but am in the caravan so can't have a look! Aaargh! It does seem to be a view shared by several critics, but Charles Dickens himself denied it, presumably wanting to keep the friendship!! From Wiki, for what it's worth:"Dickens insisted he only used some of Forster's mannerisms for this character, who was in no way to represent his closest friend. Forster, like Dickens, rose with difficulty from an impoverished middle-class background. The character of Podsnap was used to represent the views of "Society,"..."
and the rest of the sentence is spoilerish, so don't look at the entry if you don't know the novel!
Jean wrote: "Does anyone have the Michael Slater biography of Dickens to hand? I've just learned that he believed that John Forster was the model for Podsnap, but am in the caravan..."Jean, I don't have the Slater bio, but will take a look at my Tomalin and Smiley bios to see if they say anything. I seem to recall that among some of the peers, perhaps even someone like George Gissing, there was sort of this "belief" that Forster was the model for Podsnap.
Thanks John!! They're both at home too! :/
Jean wrote: "Thanks John!! They're both at home too! :/"Here is what Smiley wrote:
Tradition has it that Podsnap was based on none other than John Forster, as Harold Skimpole had been based upon Leigh Hunt, and once again Dickens managed to betray a friend and portray a characteristic at the same time, though tradition also has it that he got away with it and that Forster never revealed whether or not he realized what Dickens had done.
There's a long discussion of Podsnap as a caricature of Forster in John Forster: A Literary Life by James A. Davies, which is very interesting - I was surprised to see this real quote from an early review by Forster (of the annual publication The Keepsake): "Did Mr. R. consider that, in the course of a few weeks, his book would be in the hands of almost every family in the kingdom - does he consider that such passages... would be apt to raise a blush on the cheek of a young English female becoming the pride of her purity?"
Not very far from Podsnap in Chapter 11 - "The question about everything was, would it bring a blush into the cheek of the young person?"
There are also lots of other references - I find it pretty convincing. I haven't read this full biography yet, as I had lost it in my disorganised bookshelf - must get on and do so!
Davies also quotes a bit from the Edgar Johnson biography: "All Forster's acquaintances recognized his mannerisms embedded in Podsnap - the indignant flush, the sweeping gesture of dismissal."
John wrote: "Here is what Smiley wrote:Tradition has it that Podsnap was based on none other than John Forster, as Harold Skimpole had been based upon..."
Thanks very much for searching this out John :) That does seem a little different from the Wiki article, which I thought rather implied that Forster was well aware of it.
Judy wrote: "There's a long discussion of Podsnap as a caricature of Forster in John Forster: A Literary Life by James A. Davies, which is very interesting ..."This is a book I had not heard of! Thank you too Judy, for taking the trouble to research this :)
Jean wrote: "This is a book I had not heard of! Thank you too Judy, for taking the trouble to research this :) .."This..."
My pleasure Jean - you spurred me on to track down my copy of the Forster bio, which has been lost for ages!
Tomalin does not mention the Podsnap-Forster connection.
Right, thanks again John.
According to "The Dickens Encyclopedia" by Arthur L. Hayward:Forster was a man of somewhat overbearing manner, which was merely the mask of a very tender and sympathetic character. This manner is caricatured in Podsnap.
Additionally,
Forster's hose, 58 Lincoln's Inn Fields, was the original of Mr. Tulkinghorn's chambers."
A caption under Forster's photo indicates that he was also the model for Dowler, from Pickwick but the Dowler and Forster entries don't mention it.
The Old Curiosity Club
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Authors mentioned in this topic
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That was my feeling too. It's obvious that her mother doesn't understand her, dragging all those men over and making her dance with them is only one example of that. But I fear that there isn't much hope for Georgiana. She seems unlikely ever to attract a good man, and on the other hand she has fallen into the hands of as nasty a pair of rogues as Dickens has created, their nastiness being exacerbated by the fact that they don't appear to be rogues, as say Fagin and Bill Sykes do.