The Thousand Autumns of Jacob de Zoet

[Margo]

Thanks Cherie. I hope you didn't let see anything you shouldn't!! That sounds like what I was talking about. They really caught my attention in the audio.

Well I'm finished and I can't decide between 4 or 5 star. I enjoyed it a lot. Have to mull over the ending a bit before I review.

[Janice, Moderator]

Margo wrote: "Question for those reading this as a print or ebook. At times throughout the book I've noticed (when the narrator is japanese) that sometimes there are haiku like snippets in the text. They usually..."

There are little snippets throughout the book that are included just like a sentence. The one in your spoiler doesn't look like a poem at all.

That was why I wondered if the audiobook was confusing. At least I can see these seemingly unrelated snippets are separate paragraphs, whereas you wouldn't know that in an audiobook.

[Janice, Moderator]

I finished Part Two.

Last night, I was debating about giving up on the book even though I was more than half way through. It's not that I don't like it, but it's droning on, and I'm anxious to be finished with it. I thought, "oh what the hell, I may as well read a couple more chapters". So glad I did! LOL!

(view spoiler)[ Now we know the full details of what happens in the shrine. Enomoto didn't reveal the full truth to Orito, but he did to Uzeamon. When he said that he was over 500 years old, I thought, "Holy Slade House"! (view spoiler)[ Like the brother and sister in Slade House he was prolonging his life with the new born infants. (hide spoiler)]

What's that saying that sometimes you can speak the truth and people won't believe you. They said that the spiritual purpose of the shrine was for the fertility and longevity of life. Of course, people didn't believe it literally.

Now, I'm quite invested in the story again. Will Marinus be Onomoto's undoing?

I'm glad that I read Bone Clocks and Slade House first because I keep getting these Ah-ha! moments. Apparently Thousand Autumns is the first book in the series, but it feels more like a prequel. (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Margo wrote: "Travis I didn't know that was a name for japan. ..."

Margo, re your spoiler about Jacob - (view spoiler)[ He was threatened with prison if he tried to expose the corruption that he refused to be a party to. He remained in his own rooms and continued his regular work. (hide spoiler)]

[Margo]

Janice wrote: "Margo wrote: "Question for those reading this as a print or ebook. At times throughout the book I've noticed (when the narrator is japanese) that sometimes there are haiku like snippets in the text..."

Janice, haiku are not poems as we understand the word. They are a japanese form of poetry where it is the number of syllables in each line that is important. The traditional format is 5:7:5 i.e. 5 syllables in the first line, 7 in the second, and 5 in the last. The traditional ones are about nature. The more modern haiku writers tend to play with the format and themes. Some examples https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes...

I think that Mitchell has included some in the book.

[Margo]

@Janice Re jacob spoiler (view spoiler)[ my ears must have been playing tricks on me! I think also there may have been some references to his prison meaning the the island. He seems to have compelled to remain for some time
(hide spoiler)]

[Margo]

Some final thoughts

Part 4 (view spoiler)[ I enjoyed the musing of the slave as to who was the rightful owner of of his carving, his name, his children and finally his imagination! I found the descriptions of the the ship and it's captain interesting but but long-winded - it didn't really add to the plot. Maybe added to the theme of morality which runs throughout the book. Much of this section was just confusing. (hide spoiler)]

Pt 5 through to end - contains spoilers for The Bone Clocks (view spoiler)[ lots of hints as to Marinus horologist back ground. (Thanks Janice, I googled it to jog my memory!) I wondered if the midwife might be one also? It could account for her closeness to Dr M - random thought!

I imagine that Jacobs immortality was achieved through his portrait and not as I had previously guessed, through supernatural means.

I love the fact that Jacob finally made it home with his fortune and that the midwife, who remained the love of his life, attended his funeral. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

Janice wrote: "It's not that I don't like it, but it's droning on, and I'm anxious to be finished with it. I thought, "oh what the hell, I may as well read a couple more chapters". So glad I did! LOL!..."

Why the angst (I can't spell the other word) to be finished with it? It seems like we are always in a hurry to get to the next book.

[Cherie]

I am still stuck in Chapter 9 - at the end almost. (view spoiler)[I was engaged in the language lesson, until I realized the turn that Kobayashi's words were taking. He was very clever, wasn't he? I wonder what will happen because of the theft of the drawing from Jacob's sketchbook? I am enjoying the billiard game and the snippets of information the Doctor is handing out. I do not understand billiards. Pool, I know, but not billiards. (hide spoiler)] I know I am still at the relative beginning, but I am really liking it so far.

[Janice, Moderator]

Margo wrote: "@Janice Re jacob spoiler .."

Jacob feels (view spoiler)[ that he is in a prison - incarcerated in Nagasaki for 5 years and powerless to leave his "employment" under Fischer. It's almost as real as being in a physical prison except he can leave his rooms at will, (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Cherie wrote: "Why the angst (I can't spell the other word) to be finished with it? It seems like we are always in a hurry to get to the next book. ."

I don't know. I think it's just that I'm not in the right space to immerse myself in a read that requires one's attention.

[Janice, Moderator]

Cherie wrote: "I am still stuck in Chapter 9 - at the end almost. [spoilers removed] I know I am still at the relative beginning, but I am really liking it so far."

(view spoiler)[ It was almost as if they were playing a game of chess, wasn't it? (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

I've not read your spoilers but I saw your post on Haiku Margo. I did a bit of googling and apparently, the 5-7-5 and the overall number of syllables is not really a problem when haiku is written in English. I'm guessing the structure was down to the Japanese characters and how they structure their words. I can't remember all of it but definitely google if you're interested.

[Travis]

Cherie you prompted me to search various forms of billiards. There was a lot I didn't know either

[Cherie]

@ Janice in message 111 and 112. I understand (view spoiler)[I feel just the opposite. I am looking forward to enjoying this one, after all of the angst I had in the SW buddy read (hide spoiler)] and yes. (view spoiler)[it feels like Dr. M is toying with Jacob. I bet he is better than billiards than what he has demonstrated so far. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

Travis sivarT wrote: "Cherie you prompted me to search various forms of billiards. There was a lot I didn't know either"

I was going to do some "googling" myself, last night, but I fell asleep and didn't get anything read.

[Margo]

Sarah wrote: "I've not read your spoilers but I saw your post on Haiku Margo. I did a bit of googling and apparently, the 5-7-5 and the overall number of syllables is not really a problem when haiku is written i..."

Good point Sarah.

[Janice, Moderator]

I finally finished the book! It took me 2 weeks to read it. Some parts were so engaging, and yet others were a bit dry.

(view spoiler)[ I was happy that Enomoto was brought to justice. He and the magistrate finished their game of Go - so symbolic. I like how the magistrate revealed to him that he had poisoned the sake and why.

There were a couple things in the last chapters that were undeveloped, at least in my opinion.

One was that the Phoebus retreated presumably because of Jacob's red hair reminding the captain of his son?

The other was Jacob's son. That felt so disjointed - suddenly, there's a 10 year old son but no development of the mother. Who was she? Did they marry? Then Yaun is left behind, and finally a mention that he died. Why even bother with that detail? What was the purpose or significance?

Lastly, Dr Marinus' death - no development there, or explanation along the lines of The Bone Clocks. If I hadn't read the other book, I wouldn't have gotten the significance of his pre-knowledge of his death. I was glad that he and Jacob developed such a great relationship in spite (or maybe because) of their rocky start.

There were little hints of the magical-realism so prevalent in The Bone Clocks, and if I hadn't read it and Slade House first, I would have missed them, and been confused. I wanted to know more about the baby in the first chapter and whether or not he was one of "them". (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

I already admitted to struggling with the end but in reply to Janice (view spoiler)[I thought that Orito, was tat the midwife?, How about just the midwife I thought had a child with Jacob but due to whatever laws at the time he still had to leave her behind. Could be completely wrong though and I often am. But that was what I thought at the time (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Travis sivarT wrote: "I already admitted to struggling with the end but in reply to Janice [spoilers removed]"

I didn't get that impression. (view spoiler)[Orito was the midwife, yes. The story doesn't explain what happened after the shrine was dismantled, but it didn't should like she and Jacob reconnected until Yuan was 10. By that time, Yuan's mother had died. It was at that meeting, Jacob explained why he didn't attempt to stop her abduction all those years ago.

Yuan was unable to leave Japan because of their regulations. He was born in Japan and couldn't emigrate with his father. I think he was 17 when Jacob returned to The Netherlands. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Oh yeah. I thought Orito until that later information was brought to light . I'd just forgotten. I'm not good at remembering books after I finish them

[Janice, Moderator]

You and me both. I just finished Age of Swords. The next book in the series is scheduled for June 2018 and I'm thinking I should write some notes so that I can refresh my memory next year.

[Margo]

Re Yuan (view spoiler)[ during the scene where Jacob woke up with the prostitute there was sone reference to a lover who had died. When Yuan appeared out of the blue, I assumed he was the result of that relationship. I thought it was out of character for Jacob to leave him, appearantly without a second thought. When we learnt that he'd died I felt it represented the cutting of his last tie to japan.

Janice I also felt the part where Jacobs hair reminded the captain of his son was weird. I really don't think that that whole section added anything to story (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Margo wrote: "Re Yuan ..."

I thought back to that scene (view spoiler)[ with the prostitute as well, and the description of the condom. It didn't sound very effective and I thought perhaps Yuan was the child of an unintended pregnancy. I missed the bit about a lover who died. I just don't like situations like this to spring up in a story with no explanation and apparently no significance. We're to just accept that he had a son.

It's the same thing with the British captain pulling out of a battle because of Jacob's red hair. Really? I didn't get it, except that he was driven out of his mind by the pain of the gout and not thinking rationally. But, you're right, Margo. How did it further the story? What was it's significance?

Oh, wait! As I wrote that last question, I recalled reading up on the novel in Wikipedia. He was keeping with the historical accuracy of the time period. "Some of the events depicted in the novel are based on real history, such as the HMS Phaeton's bombardment of Dejima and subsequent ritual suicide of Nagasaki Magistrate." By including that section, he set up the ritual suicide of the Magistrate and the murder of Enomoto. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

I finally finished Part 1 (view spoiler)[I am sure that I was not the only one who could not believe what happened to Jacob (was I as trusting as Jacob and did not see it coming either?) I spent a lot of time researching about the VOC and the Dutch trading history in Japan at the end of this section. I still cannot quite understand the copper business. I know that they were demanding 20,000 pictuals, but WHAT for? Was it payment? Okay, they got 9.600 and changed it to 2,600 on the record, but I just didn't get the whole transaction. They keep saying that Dejima is a factory, but what do they produce? I was horrified to find out Orito has been sent to the Nunnery (hide spoiler)]

I am in the middle of chapter 20, in Part 2. One minute it seems slow, but the next has a scene that gets my heart pounding. (view spoiler)[the kidney stone operation was awful, but isn't pay back grand? (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Hahaha, to your Part 2 spoiler, Cherie. (view spoiler)[It was horrific, but the alternative sounded like a pretty painful way to die. It was the lesser of two evils. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

Part 2, end of Chapter 20. (view spoiler)[OMG, I just found out how much worse things are at the House of Sisters and how awful, awful that Abbot Enomoto and his shrine is! Oh, I hope Uzaemon's friend, Shuzai is really a good guy. I keep wondering what is ailing Uzaemon's father. Is he being poisoned maybe? (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Right. I have an hour's bus journey today so I will be listening to this. :-)

[Margo]

@Janice re message 12 (view spoiler)[ hmm, real events, fictionalised. That usually works well for me adding context to the story. In this case though it just felt an afterthought.
Maybe he liked it so much that he refused to allow it be cut? (hide spoiler)]

[Margo]

@Cherie (view spoiler)[ I found it interesting that all the nuns had some facial deformity. Woman were on the bottom rung of the ladder and ugly/deforned women were lower still so noone cared what became of them. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

Margo wrote in message 130: "@Cherie [spoilers removed]"

Re nuns (view spoiler)[I noticed it too and figured it made it easier to for them to accept wearing the hoods. They were not going to make waves. No one was missing them, and they were easily lead to believe in the reasons that they were given to keep up with the fertility myths and allow their gifts to be given away. (hide spoiler)]

I ended up at chapter 26 - just a few pages in, last night.
Chapter 21 Orito(view spoiler)[That whole chapter was nerve wracking. I am kind of confused about all of the alter rooms and the cave(s) and the different statues of the Goddess. (hide spoiler)]
Chapter 22 Shuzai (view spoiler)[I loved his report of the scouting trip to Uzaemon! I feel so sorry for Uzaemon, but grateful too. Are they really, really going to try to rescue Orito if she didn't get away? At least the "air" between Jacob and Uzaemon is a little more settled. (hide spoiler)]
Chapter 23 Orito (view spoiler)[Oh, she did go back! Does she really have any "power"? The babies and the scenes surrounding them were so awful. Does the Housekeeper not know what happens to the babies? I can't tell, but I do not think so. (hide spoiler)]
Chapter 24 Uzaemon (view spoiler)[ The scenes with his father and mother were sad. The meeting with the guard at the gate was scary for a while, huh? (hide spoiler)]
Chapter 25 Enomoto (view spoiler)[Isn't he quite the smooth talker?
He has an answer for everything! I am holding my breath! What if she doesn't t take the his offer? How can she? What will they do to her? Who is Enomoto going to meet and what stolen thing is he talking about? (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Interesing questions and observations, Cheri. Does your copy have a map of the shrine? Mine did and it helped visualize it a bit.

[Cherie]

Yes, Janice. There is a map. (view spoiler)[You mean the one that Shuzai drew on his spy mission, from chapter 22? It is not labeled so I don't know which the buildings are, but I will read Orito's account again. (hide spoiler)]

I have been reading since I left work at 6:45pam. It felt like hours but only 25 pages have gone by. Chapter 27 was quite the epistle.

Chapter 26. - After my last post. (view spoiler)[Heartbreaking! I just knew it was all too good to be true with Shuzai and his men. Is there anyone that Enomoto does not have in the palm of his hand? He is 600 years old? I wonder what they did to Orito? (hide spoiler)]

I learned a new word in the second paragraph of Chapter 28. I had to look it up! "polite people do not discuss __ in public". That was the example of the word from my dictionary app. I'm trying to decide if I want to tell my grandson.

I think I'm done for tonight. I have a 4 hr class at work tomorrow and I have to be there, "with my ears on", at 8am.

[Janice, Moderator]

Cherie wrote: "Yes, Janice. There is a map. [spoilers removed]...."

I'm not sure, Cherie. I don't have the book any more to go back and check.

What was the word you looked up?

[Cherie]

Janice wrote: "What was the word you looked up?"
(view spoiler)[ordure (hide spoiler)]

[Margo]

Cherie wrote: "Yes, Janice. There is a map. [spoilers removed]

I have been reading since I left work at 6:45pam. It felt like hours but only 25 pages have gone by. Chapter 27 was quite the epistle.

Chapter 26...."

If it's the word I'm thinking I would'a been shocked that my grandma knew it ;-p

[Cherie]

Margo wrote: "If it's the word I'm thinking I would'a been shocked that my grandma knew it ;-p ..."

I think I had heard the word, but it was given a "French" pronunciation. I cannot ever recall seeing it in print before. :-)
(view spoiler)["o dor de jor" is what I meant. However, if I were to exclame "ordure" instead of "sh*!" - no one that I know, would know what I was really saying, right? (hide spoiler)]

[Margo]

LOL you get away with all sorts if you say it in French!

[Sarah]

I've listened to some more but to be honest I keep tuning out a little and because I'm listening to it with big gaps in between, I don't feel like much is really happening. Yesterday, I ended up switching to my other audio instead. Perhaps now isn't the right time for me to read this one. I really want read it though as I am liking it and seeing everyone's comments/ratings makes me want to read it more.

[Margo]

I know that feeling Sarah. Sometimes it's right book, wrong time!

[Sarah]

Yes. I've decided to put it on my started-come-back-later shelf.

[Cherie]

I haven't made it through more than 20 pages a day since my last update. I am currently in Part 3, chapter 32. I can understand why Travis may have been confused about what was going on in these chapters, trying to listen only to the audio. I would have been. I did get a good medical education when I looked up gout and Barbados leg, (view spoiler)[what I am still unsure of, is whether the Shenandoah was captured by the British ship, or if it sank, or if another Dutch ship sank or was captured. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

You're always doing all this extra work with books Cherie. I'm too lazy. I always feel like in the end you get far more out of a lot of reads than I do though

[Cherie]

Just curious and the technology is at hand for me most of the time. Unlike you, Travis, I have a little more leisure time to look things up. You have to keep your attention on your task as you are listening while you are working. Besides, you looked up billiards. I have not done that yet. ;P

I don't like these British navel guys at all!

[Travis]

I was about to ask how you knew they were British then realized while I am on a boat I'm in a completely different book. Carry on Cherie

[Janice, Moderator]

Hahaha... funny when you get the books mixed up like that.

I don't think I liked the Dutch navel guys either, Cherie.

[Cherie]

I was talking about the Captain, with gout, and his crew on the Phoebus, Janice. (view spoiler)[Fisher just found out that Jacob and Dr. Marinus put one over on him. (hide spoiler)]. Chapter Thirty-Seven. October 19, 1800.

[Janice, Moderator]

Cherie wrote: "I was talking about the Captain, with gout, and his crew on the Phoebus, Janice. [spoilers removed]. Chapter Thirty-Seven. October 19, 1800."

LOL! You've misunderstood me, Cherie. I didn't like the British ship/crew, nor did I like the Dutch ship/crew. I thought they were equally reprehensible.

[Cherie]

Ah, I think I understand, Janice. You were talking about the Shenandoah and the Dutch guys who went with her, leaving Van Clef and Fischer in charge of Dejima.

I am in Chapter 38 now. (view spoiler)[It looks like Jacob is planning on going down with his Dejima "ship". Marinus is arguing with him to come down from the watch tower. Funny how this is recorded. All the shooting of the ships cannons happened in the previous chapter and we heard the British remarks and now it is being recorded on the Dutch side, on the island, as Jacob watches the British ship sail closer and prepare to shoot. (hide spoiler)]

[Cherie]

Still in chapter 38 - (view spoiler)[after the Phoebus quit firing on them. Jacob is thinking "what history shall call the Phoebus Incident". I decided to look it up, and found this wiki link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Pha.... The time line is a little different and the ship name and Captain's name was not the same - but all based on real life events. The Nagasaki info is at the bottom part. (hide spoiler)]